Raising PvP Zone -level enforcement- NON RV

[Bionic_Flea]

What happens to the PvP missions?  The ones Glacier Peak posted above.  Some of them give temp powers.  You can't do them if you are over-level.

[Kataklysm]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

I guess that's one way to look at it. But fighting at level 50 gives me access to a lot more powers and enhancement set bonuses.

 I'm told the RV spider bosses don't seem to care about those power options and will still beat your behind. This part I am unsure, but I believe the scaled up critters wouldn't really have more attacks, as much as be scaled up, so maybe they will feel roughly the same to the now scaled up to 50 players? unless changing those spawndefs also means filling in the power #disparity to the level of the enemy. 

55 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

What happens to the PvP missions?  The ones Glacier Peak posted above.  Some of them give temp powers.  You can't do them if you are over-level.

In other words I don't know if the max level for the critter spawndef being fixed to 45-52 would do to the # of powers they have at 50 vs 37 for example with the thorns. The missions would be scaled up to 50, and since entry at level 1 is a thing, access at lower level would be the same but -level 50- forced instead of the current enforced caps  levels |25|30|38|
 

1 hour ago, Faultline said:

Minigames and badges stay where they are.

 

For example: Bloody Bay sets the player to level 25. That would be bumped to 50. Critters in Bloody Bay spawn in the range 20 to 27, that would be adjusted to 45 to 52. I believe some turrets and other special critters spawn at 35 or 40, those would be bumped to 54. Everything else about the zones remains the same.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius

[Rudra]

The lower level groups would need to have powers added/modified to be fighting as level 50-54 opposition. They can't just have their levels scaled up. The higher level groups would probably be fine just having their levels scaled up.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

..now look up the definition of Hazard Zone and search the old forums. You'll see what's been said before. 😉

Hey I went to the trouble of posting screenshots for you, the least you could do is show me what you're talking about. 

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Hey I went to the trouble of posting screenshots for you, the least you could do is show me what you're talking about. 

 

were those screen shots of the current game or the game as it was? 😉

[Faultline]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

What happens to the PvP missions?  The ones Glacier Peak posted above.  Some of them give temp powers.  You can't do them if you are over-level.

 

You may want to go try and do one of those missions at level 50.

[Faultline]

17 minutes ago, Troo said:

were those screen shots of the current game or the game as it was? 😉

 

Both. The wording from contacts is carried from before shutdown, the wording in the Pocket D exit to Recluse's Victory was added a page or two ago. The official policy is that PVP zones are for PVP first and foremost.

[Bionic_Flea]

10 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

You may want to go try and do one of those missions at level 50.

I did a few days ago and they would not give them to me.

[Glacier Peak]

25 minutes ago, Troo said:

were those screen shots of the current game or the game as it was? 😉

I swear I logged in and took those today. 

[Troo]

12 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

Both. The wording from contacts is carried from before shutdown, the wording in the Pocket D exit to Recluse's Victory was added a page or two ago. The official policy is that PVP zones are for PVP first and foremost.

 

Where is this 'official' policy?

 

 

 

[Luminara]

Wouldn't this place low level competitors at an extreme disadvantage?  Even if the zone automatically sidekicks them up to 50, they'd still be working with fewer powers, fewer slots in the powers they have, and they wouldn't have the benefits of enhancements like Superior versions of ATOs and Winters, or purples like native 50s.

 

Or will 50 be required to enter the zones at all?  That would be fairer, and avoid the potential problem of players taking high level PvP characters into the zones and beating the stuffing out of SKed low level characters... which would be akin to walking into an elementary school and punching every 7 year old in sight.

[Rudra]

Just now, Luminara said:

Wouldn't this place low level competitors at an extreme disadvantage?  Even if the zone automatically sidekicks them up to 50, they'd still be working with fewer powers, fewer slots in the powers they have, and they wouldn't have the benefits of enhancements like Superior versions of ATOs and Winters, or purples like native 50s.

 

That already happens. Using Bloody Bay as example. At 15th level or so, the character is told about Bloody Bay and the PvP zones. They enter BB and are sidekicked up to 25. If there are any PvP players in zone, they are level 50 characters with full IO sets. So they have all their powers up to level 30 and all set bonuses that don't have minimums of higher than 25. So there is already a power disparity, both in powers, set bonuses, and enhancement bonuses. This proposal would admittedly make that imbalance more imbalanced though. *shrug*

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Wouldn't this place low level competitors at an extreme disadvantage?  Even if the zone automatically sidekicks them up to 50, they'd still be working with fewer powers, fewer slots in the powers they have, and they wouldn't have the benefits of enhancements like Superior versions of ATOs and Winters, or purples like native 50s.

 

Or will 50 be required to enter the zones at all?  That would be fairer, and avoid the potential problem of players taking high level PvP characters into the zones and beating the stuffing out of SKed low level characters... which would be akin to walking into an elementary school and punching every 7 year old in sight.

 

Stop making sense. That is less than acceptable.. PvP as a very few see it trumps all.

[Rudra]

This is something I don't understand and am hoping someone can explain to me:

 

PvP players love PvP for the challenge. PvP players want more people to PvP. Check. Makes sense to me.

 

PvP players get upset when the suggestion to remove the explore badges and lore badges from PvP zones are made because it takes away the incentive for PvE players to go into the zones to get them. Check, still makes sense. More players means more PvP.

 

This is the part I don't understand:

PvE players do not build for PvP and because of the way some powers change in PvP zones, are less of a threat to the PvP players than the zone mobs. So at least to me, this makes PvE players not a challenge. Would someone explain this to me?

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

This is something I don't understand and am hoping someone can explain to me:

 

PvP players love PvP for the challenge. PvP players want more people to PvP. Check. Makes sense to me.

 

PvP players get upset when the suggestion to remove the explore badges and lore badges from PvP zones are made because it takes away the incentive for PvE players to go into the zones to get them. Check, still makes sense. More players means more PvP.

 

This is the part I don't understand:

PvE players do not build for PvP and because of the way some powers change in PvP zones, are less of a threat to the PvP players than the zone mobs. So at least to me, this makes PvE players not a challenge. Would someone explain this to me?

PvP is a game mechanic. That's an important distinction. When people discuss the PvE or PvP player base - its by segregating the two between PvE and PvP that this misunderstanding develops. I PvP, I PvE. Where do I fit in this dichotomous environment? Can't I enjoy both? I enjoy base building, collecting badges, and playing the market too. Just because someone enjoys PvPing doesn't mean they don't enjoy the rest of the game too. Everybody has something they enjoy about the game that's why they play it.

 

You may be surprised to know that PvP-focused builds don't always do well in PvE gameplay either, especially if the build relies on PvP IOs for set bonuses.

[Troo]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

This is the part I don't understand:

PvE players do not build for PvP and because of the way some powers change in PvP zones, are less of a threat to the PvP players than the zone mobs. So at least to me, this makes PvE players not a challenge. Would someone explain this to me?

 

PvE players are not a challenge. PvP does not care about PvE players.

 

 

[Rudra]

Actually, I'm not surprised. I've been told on many occasions that PvP builds typically do terrible in PvE. I also understand that players can and do enjoy multiple aspects of the game. I'm not saying anyone is a single dimension player and only able to be lumped into one category. I suppose I just don't know how to ask correctly. Never mind.

 

Edit: Given my typical timing, I need to point out this comment is in response to @Glacier Peak's response to me.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Rudra

[America's Angel]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

PvP players get upset when the suggestion to remove the explore badges and lore badges from PvP zones are made because it takes away the incentive for PvE players to go into the zones to get them

I'm sure there's a few bullies who think this way. But I imagine, of the PvPers I know (which is most of the active ones), most wouldn't care if all the badges/plaques/shivans/nukes/etc were removed from PvP zones.

 

Personally, I think moving all that stuff to the less active hazard zones, and keeping the PvP zones just for PvP would be an improvement to the game. (At the very least, the redside PvE accolades shouldn't require going into a PvP zone.)

Edited July 23, 2022 by America's Angel

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That already happens. Using Bloody Bay as example. At 15th level or so, the character is told about Bloody Bay and the PvP zones. They enter BB and are sidekicked up to 25. If there are any PvP players in zone, they are level 50 characters with full IO sets. So they have all their powers up to level 30 and all set bonuses that don't have minimums of higher than 25. So there is already a power disparity, both in powers, set bonuses, and enhancement bonuses.

 

A level 50 character exemplared to level 30 isn't just losing a few powers or IO set bonuses, it's also subject to enhancement devaluation.  And while the level 15 character sidekicked up to 25 doesn't gain powers or slots, it does gain increased enhancement values.  That's an important aspect of the zones' auto-leveling effect.  That's the only thing that makes it possible for the level 15 character to participate.  Removing that exemplaring effect in addition to letting the level 50 character keep all powers and set bonuses doesn't widen a gap, it creates an insurmountable obstacle.  Even sidekicked to 50, the level 15 character is nothing more than a defeat waiting to happen at that point.  It's no more a threat to the 50 than the Skulls in Perez Park.

[Troo]

11 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Personally, I think moving all that stuff to the less active hazard zones, and keeping the PvP zones just for PvP would be an improvement to the game. (At the very least, the redside PvE accolades shouldn't require going into a PvP zone.)

 

Then why not add some PvP zones for specialized high level PvP? I'd support that. We have some zones and/or maps that would work great for this.

 

Leave the zones and existing activities (which get used) alone.

 

It is the sense of entitlement to simply take and impact other players while associated issues created are ignored or dismissed to facilitate the wishes of a few.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Troo

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I'm sure there's a few bullies who think this way. But I imagine, of the PvPers I know (which is most of the active ones), most wouldn't care if all the badges/plaques/shivans/nukes/etc were removed from PvP zones.

 

Personally, I think moving all that stuff to the less active hazard zones, and keeping the PvP zones just for PvP would be an improvement to the game. (At the very least, the redside PvE accolades shouldn't require going into a PvP zone.)

I realize I've replied a bunch to this thread, so forgive my follow up here - and I respect your opinion AA, but I disagree with it. I consider myself an active PvPer and I do care if the zone has some 'character' to it - the Hotdog stand in Siren's Call, the pillboxes in Recluse's Victory, the giant hero and villain bases in Bloody Bay, and the Rocket in Warburg, they all add to the 'character' of the zone. It's kind of like stages in a 2D fighting game. They've got a unique feel and sound (some have awesome soundtracks) that add to the 'character' and overall ambience.

 

As for the badges/plaques/shivans/nukes/etc being removed, I'm not against it, but I don't think it's right to remove all of the stuff that make up each zone's 'character.' I don't want to stray too far from the topic of the thread either, I realize Terius is well-intentioned and looking to get a consensus on their suggestion. Either way, I'll keep playing the game so do what is best for the community!

 

Oh, lastly, I actually do badge too! 😁

Spoiler

 

[Troo]

13 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I think the reasoning behind just raising the Bloody Bay/Sirens/Warburg caps to 50 rather than making new zones is because such a change would take 30 seconds. (And because Zone PvP is so awful right now, any changes that require a significant time investment just aren't worth it.)

 

I get it.

But it is not really that easy when doing a good job. The quickest and dirtiest leaves a wake of loose ends and mess.

 

"And because Zone PvP is so awful right now," Why not just do one zone then? Work out bugs and show a case why it should be expanded.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Troo

[Kataklysm]

39 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I realize I've replied a bunch to this thread, so forgive my follow up here - and I respect your opinion AA, but I disagree with it. I consider myself an active PvPer and I do care if the zone has some 'character' to it - the Hotdog stand in Siren's Call, the pillboxes in Recluse's Victory, the giant hero and villain bases in Bloody Bay, and the Rocket in Warburg, they all add to the 'character' of the zone. It's kind of like stages in a 2D fighting game. They've got a unique feel and sound (some have awesome soundtracks) that add to the 'character' and overall ambience.

 

As for the badges/plaques/shivans/nukes/etc being removed, I'm not against it, but I don't think it's right to remove all of the stuff that make up each zone's 'character.' I don't want to stray too far from the topic of the thread either, I realize Terius is well-intentioned and looking to get a consensus on their suggestion. Either way, I'll keep playing the game so do what is best for the community!

 

Oh, lastly, I actually do badge too! 😁

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Okay to point at this I think the zones should be left to their lore devices, taking away character from the zones is undesirable.

18 minutes ago, Troo said:

"And because Zone PvP is so awful right now," Why not just do one zone then? Work out bugs and show a case why it should be expanded.

I actually lean at option 2 for this reason, as the change to bloody bay would be negligible raising 5 levels to 30, allowing testing both ends of the PvP level enforcement change spectrum 

[Bionic_Flea]

I think Troo brings up a good point.  If there is a negligible amount of zone PvPing going on, shouldn't you want to concentrate them into one zone instead of divide them into 3?  What makes you think that raising the zone level will bring more players?  Temporal Warriors aren't necessarily an answer to that as Temporal Warriors can already go to any of the zones.  They just get exemped to the existing levels.  What's wrong with that?

 

[Kataklysm]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think Troo brings up a good point.  If there is a negligible amount of zone PvPing going on, shouldn't you want to concentrate them into one zone instead of divide them into 3?  What makes you think that raising the zone level will bring more players?  Temporal Warriors aren't necessarily an answer to that as Temporal Warriors can already go to any of the zones.  They just get exemped to the existing levels.  What's wrong with that?

 

I would want to do that if PvP wasn't being made an open gate to free PvP 50's with page 4 the idea is to allow PvP room to stretch since the zones aren't being used for a lot of reasons but often largely due to not wanting to scale down their level and constrict their build

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius