Focused Feedback: Fiery Melee Revamp

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Of course it is.  Some of this other pylon tests don't have -res procs.  So if you compare beta fiery melee (with lots of -res procs) to live fiery melee or energy melee (no -res procs), then you say, "Wow, beta fiery melee drastically outperforms live, and is competitive with energy melee."

 

And that's true if you care about the pylon minigame.  Which is a fine thing to care about.  But if you are looking at pylon times as a generalized test of ST DPS, you have to say, "but I know that beta fiery melee's times will be relatively better in pylons than other targets compared to live fiery melee's performance on pylons versus other targets, meaning some prob of the improvement is illusory."

 

Literally what I did.

[Sovera]

23 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I dont know if the OP changes but Cascading Defense Failure on all the -def things and Knockdown spam on cremate was there to effect firefarming.  thats why breath of fire before had a 45 second dot.  extreme few NPCs in this game last 45 seconds

 

No, it wasn't. It was a buff to players but NPCs also use the same sets that players do. There is no NPC Fire Melee and player Fire Melee. There is Fire Melee.

 

If you were to stop and think about it for a few seconds you would realize it has no bearing on your conspiracy:

 

A) minutes after this unintended effect was reported people came up with an alternative to the swords that gave the same XP and was as easy to farm as before.

B) if devs wanted to hinder fire farming they would not do something as easy to correct as it was. They could, in fact, make all AE XP go down to 10% and be rid of it. They haven't, so it's not what you're thinking.

C) Fire breath was a very nice damage buff that was pulled back once realizing EVERY SINGLE NPC that used fire breath now would apply the 45 second DoT. Since mobs come in multiples the players would be perpetually living under DoT until the mission ended.

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

No, it wasn't. It was a buff to players but NPCs also use the same sets that players do.

Then explain why -def for fire attacks.  wouldnt it make more sense to make dots stronger?

Ever seen that merc commando pop into a team and everyone thought "fuckyeah -def now its time to rock"?

 

cmon man, its a firefarm nerf attempt

[Sovera]

3 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Then explain why -def for fire attacks.  wouldnt it make more sense to make dots stronger?

Ever seen that merc commando pop into a team and everyone thought "fuckyeah -def now its time to rock"?

 

cmon man, its a firefarm nerf attempt

 

...you just ignored everything I typed, didn't you? Including the 'nerf' was so moustache twirling cartoonishly inept that players fixed it under two minutes and then the devs threw their hands up in the air and gave up because they had been foiled and why would trying to do it again if players were just going to fix it again.

 

...

 

Anyway, the -def was to slot more and different sets. Including, of course, the infamous -res one, on top of all the other damage procs if so inclined. Yes, Powerhouse is aware that Achiles exists and giving access to it to FM would add even more power to it.

 

 

Do I agree with how it was done? No. FM needed a boost and it got a boost, but it isn't really a FM boost. But it's still a boost and FM went from being crap to being pretty good on top of dealing the least resisted damage, so I will take it.

 

 

I doubt I will make your mind be changed by any of this, but I will just be repeating myself by adding more to this.

[kelika2]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

...you just ignored everything I typed, didn't you? Including the 'nerf' was so moustache twirling cartoonishly inept that players fixed it

i too wouldnt mind seeing the mario movie but there might be an age gap thing going on

but we both know achilles heel aint worth shit

1.) one single achilles heel per target no matter how many sources are procing it

2.) it gets resisted

3.) in a game where minions and lts die instantly why even

 

unless the devs can separate these changes from AE, its a firefarm nerf.  Pure fire damage was a nice bonus, extra damage from BoF was great, activation time reduction sure

but

ice melee is still lethal/smashing partials, ice patch does not have a ticking dot.  but because an extreme few play ice melee and there are no cold farms its time to realize all these changes in the OP are to effect firefarming.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

...you just ignored everything I typed, didn't you? Including the 'nerf' was so moustache twirling cartoonishly inept that players fixed it under two minutes and then the devs threw their hands up in the air and gave up because they had been foiled and why would trying to do it again if players were just going to fix it again.

 

...

 

Anyway, the -def was to slot more and different sets. Including, of course, the infamous -res one, on top of all the other damage procs if so inclined. Yes, Powerhouse is aware that Achiles exists and giving access to it to FM would add even more power to it.

 

 

Do I agree with how it was done? No. FM needed a boost and it got a boost, but it isn't really a FM boost. But it's still a boost and FM went from being crap to being pretty good on top of dealing the least resisted damage, so I will take it.

 

 

I doubt I will make your mind be changed by any of this, but I will just be repeating myself by adding more to this.

why was IG the only rm power changed? Why hasnt EMP gotten a pass? almost no one uses it. not a conspiracy, just someone looking at places they want to make changes for a purpose. The devs have done this in the past, very recently. Not a shadowy cabal.

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, ivanhedgehog said:

why was IG the only rm power changed? Why hasnt EMP gotten a pass? almost no one uses it. not a conspiracy, just someone looking at places they want to make changes for a purpose. The devs have done this in the past, very recently. Not a shadowy cabal.

 

IG was busted, like Burn was. It wasn't the right moment to fix it without giving the rest of the tweak a pass Powerhouse really hated how broken it was, sot that's what happened. Maybe if people didn't brag so hard about their AFK farming it wouldn't have happened without the pass. The argument made was about -def being a sneaky anti-farm decision and that's what I was answering to.

 

I'm not Powerhouse or even a dev though, but at this point I believe even if the man came out and explained you'd still say he was lying and it was to nerf farming.

 

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

i too wouldnt mind seeing the mario movie but there might be an age gap thing going on

but we both know achilles heel aint worth shit

1.) one single achilles heel per target no matter how many sources are procing it

2.) it gets resisted

3.) in a game where minions and lts die instantly why even

 

unless the devs can separate these changes from AE, its a firefarm nerf.  Pure fire damage was a nice bonus, extra damage from BoF was great, activation time reduction sure

but

ice melee is still lethal/smashing partials, ice patch does not have a ticking dot.  but because an extreme few play ice melee and there are no cold farms its time to realize all these changes in the OP are to effect firefarming.

 

Well, Ice Melee has a physical aspect to it's swords.  Fire Swords can be looked at as just flame given a shape.  Notice Cremate still has it's smashing component.

 

The sad part is, all Fire Melee really got out of this is pure fire damage on the swords and a faster GFS (by almost a second).  It'll improve the DPS, but I'm not sure if it's enough.  I wish they did something with Fire Breath still.

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

but we both know achilles heel aint worth shit

 

I was listening until you said that. Out of curiosity I read the rest of your rant. Woo boy.

 

@Sovera says some wild stuff too, but he ain't wrong at all with ya'll's debate.

 

I see your point that the application of -DEF from two of the attacks in FM on Beta are a stealth Fire Farm nerf. Cascading defense failure in a pure fire farm definitely seems likely now, but that doesn't mean if someone wants to farm they can't do a S/L farm or something. A rad/x tanker with their AOE attack ctrl-clicked would be just fine in a S/L farm. Or inv/x or...you get the point. I'm personally not to butt hurt about the hit to fire farming cause, yes I do fire farm, but I AFK fire farm. And only if I need to.

 

I personally see a buff to Fiery Melee as a big big win and the nerf to fire farming as a win also. Is that annoying to me? A little. But there seems to be wayyyyyy more positives with this change. I don't actively play in a Fire Farm, never really enjoyed it. Each their own. So I do get your frustration.

 

@BrandX these changes were a VERY significant bump to FM's personal DPS. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by SomeGuy

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

I was listening until you said that. Out of curiosity I read the rest of your rant. Woo boy.

I am going to assume it might mean something in a pylon or trapdoor test

But 90% of this game is blowing up minions (or skipping them)

5% of this game is fighting AVs that just get Lore petted anyways

and the other 5% are forum battles until someone out browbeats another and everyone forgetting what we were fighting about after a one liner from a mod followed up by a threadlock

 

But yeah, I will admit when you are soloing a 5 minute fight or so an achilles heel might be worth something, but in a group setting your achilles might be a wasted slot because someone else has it.  still shit tho

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

rant

freaking lolllll   and the other 5% are forum battles until someone out browbeats another and everyone forgetting what we were fighting about after a one liner from a mod followed up by a threadlock

 

 

OK, I am picking up on your logic, and in that context I absolutely would agree. My own personal logic is the other way around though. Minions/trash don't matter. They're going to die with people with just brawl set to auto. Slotting doesn't need to be optimal. Things with a high HP pool is where that matters and that's where a team can really get slogged down, or even fail (I've seen this happen).

 

Blowing up a large amount of minions IS a lot of fun for me. I have missions on each of my characters specifically for this so I can just log on and brainslessly nuke some nazis. This game is amazing to me at being a build-your-own Musou character sort of game (think dynasty warriors). Obviously that's not for everyone all the time, so I feel like we are fortunate enough to get other more deliberate options (hard mode content, etc.).

 

Like I said, I am definitely biased in my thought that is a possible (I feel likely) hurt to fire farming but I'm not gonna be personally bugged by it. I've got a Rad/SS tanker. I'll just respec him to AFK farm SL content or something.

Edited October 17, 2022 by SomeGuy

[ivanhedgehog]

7 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

IG was busted, like Burn was. It wasn't the right moment to fix it without giving the rest of the tweak a pass Powerhouse really hated how broken it was, sot that's what happened. Maybe if people didn't brag so hard about their AFK farming it wouldn't have happened without the pass. The argument made was about -def being a sneaky anti-farm decision and that's what I was answering to.

 

I'm not Powerhouse or even a dev though, but at this point I believe even if the man came out and explained you'd still say he was lying and it was to nerf farming.

 

amazingly, the other "broken" powers never get a glance. RM is broken without the old IG but it wont even get a glance. Its amazing how many "bugs" you find that coincidentally slam farming. the devs dont like farming but want to be able to say they dont.  Actions speak louder than words. We will be waiting a long time before they make EMP something more than just a few people want to build.

[BrandX]

13 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

 

@BrandX these changes were a VERY significant bump to FM's personal DPS. 

 

Greater Fire Sword lower animation without a change to anything else is obviously an increase to FM's personal DPS.  Is it losing the Lethal component of the swords doing it as well, or just being able to slot the -Resist Proc (which I'll be honest, I'd hope for more than "You can slot this proc now!")

[electric_emu]

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

(which I'll be honest, I'd hope for more than "You can slot this proc now!")

 

I have mixed feelings about this.  On one hand, my monkey brain lights up when I see a power can take Def Debuff sets.  And when I see that I'm doing more damage.  On the other, planning a build around aggressively slotting a single (very good) proc is... annoying.  Your ability to make use of 6-slot (and sometimes 5-slot) bonuses is hamstrung.  If your other powerset is already crunched for slots you'll be feeling it even more.

 

For DPS, I would prefer a simple numbers bump to the set than relying on Achilles Heel.  Right now, a fully built FM character feels pretty good.  But I don't love that a proc is doing a lot of the work.  

[Lazarillo]

18 hours ago, BrandX said:

The sad part is, all Fire Melee really got out of this is pure fire damage on the swords and a faster GFS (by almost a second).  It'll improve the DPS, but I'm not sure if it's enough.  I wish they did something with Fire Breath still.

It also got the 100% KD chance on Cremate, unless I missed that getting rolled back, too?

Assuming I didn't miss something, this is actually pretty big, especially with the speedier GFS, since it makes for a quicker two-hit coup de grace that significantly reduces the chances of bosses firing (no pun intended) godmode powers and such, and honestly, I'll take that.

 

Granted, I agree that more love for Fire Breath in this would've been nice too.

[aethereal]

I think there's a very reasonable real argument for Breath of Fire getting the 45 second DoT on players and keeping current version on mobs.  Not related to fire farming -- just the value of "a 45 second DoT" is very different between players and mobs.  It's not like it would be unprecedented for mobs to have a different version of a power than players do -- see for example the Moment of Glory that Paragon Protectors get.

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

It also got the 100% KD chance on Cremate, unless I missed that getting rolled back, too?

Assuming I didn't miss something, this is actually pretty big, especially with the speedier GFS, since it makes for a quicker two-hit coup de grace that significantly reduces the chances of bosses firing (no pun intended) godmode powers and such, and honestly, I'll take that.

 

Granted, I agree that more love for Fire Breath in this would've been nice too.

 

This I'm glad about as I always thought that animation needed a knockdown.