Rename/Rework Dual Blades: Dual Wield

[Wravis]

I've always wondered why Dual Blades doesn't have baton options to select from. There are plenty of characters in various comics and media that fight with two sticks rather than two swords, like Daredevil and Nightwing. It's a comic book staple, and it really makes no sense that we can't do it in CoH. Especially with the addition of police batons that war mace received.

A few people have claimed the reason batons aren't a dual blade option is that they are not blades. Which, well, duh. But that's a stupid reason. You swing batons the same way you swing swords. It's the same (or very similar) fighting style, just with less lacerations and maiming.

But if that's really the reason, I propose a change! Make it Dual Wield. This adds even more options than just batons. You can add axes too! It unlocks so much customization potential!

There are so many positives and very few negatives that I can think of.

Pros:

• Adds a significant amount of customization by including maces and axes to the powerset.
• More combinations of weapons to show off the new sheathe feature.
• Less grievous injuries by removing the requirement to have blades. Whacking guys with batons is more heroic than cutting them.
• With axes and maces both added, you can make a very efficient butcher. Butcher knife in one hand, meat tenderizer in the other. Cut down on time and labor!
• With maces as an option, you can make a very efficient handyman. Crow bar in one hand, wrench in the other.
   

Cons:

• Decision Paralysis. More options means more choice which means harder decisions.
• Change is scary.

 

An example of the changes could look something like the following:

Dual Blades Revamp

• Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, and Tanker powersets name "Dual Blades" has been changed to "Dual Wield".
• War Mace and Battle Axe weapon options are now available for this powerset.

 

Changes to Dual Blades, now Dual Wield (all Archetypes):

 

• Nimble Strike
  • "Nimble Slash" has been renamed to "Nimble Strike"
• Power Strike
  • "Power Slice" has been renamed to "Power Strike"
• Typhoon Sweep (Brute, Tanker, Scrapper)
  • "Typhoon's Edge" has been renamed to "Typhoon Sweep".
• Assassin's Strike (Stalker)
  • "Assassin's Blades" has been renamed to "Assassin's Strike".
• Vengeful Strike
  • "Vengeful Slice" has been renamed to "Vengeful Strike".
• Flurry
  • "One Thousand Cuts" has been renamed to "Flurry".

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 08:36 PM by Wravis

[Yaliw]

Change is bad. Cottage rule. Time wasted on this and not something I want. I hate axes. Dual blades would now be OP. Dual-wielsing makes with Energy Aurs would be double strong and pretty and that would fry the server.. /s

 

I like this idea 🙂

[Rudra]

I could have sworn Dual Blades had tonfa at the very least, but I went and checked on a Scrapper and didn't see them. So sure, add jo (fighting sticks) and tonfa.

 

Edit: Though a new set that used the rapid multi-hit strikes of tonfa/fighting sticks as used in the comics instead could also be very interesting.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Rudra

[El D]

I like this idea, though it might be easier to implement Dual Wielding as a separate powerset that's basically a copy of Dual Blades except with bludgeoning weapons & Smashing damage. That'd keep it in-line with prior sets like War Mace being separate from Battle Axe/Broadsword by dint of damage type and weapon theme while still being the exact same set as far as progression/animation goes. Plus, it'd allow room for some tweaks to make the two Dual sets unique from each other (like giving Dual Blades some -Def like Katana/Ninja Blade have while Dual Wield gets Disorient a la War Mace, or something along those lines).

 

It is a bit kludge-y but it does follow the exact same set up that the original weapon sets do - which is 'outside of Katana, all of these are essentially carbon copies of each other because we separated out their damage types.'

Edited October 14, 2022 by El D

[Wravis]

2 hours ago, El D said:

I like this idea, though it might be easier to implement Dual Wielding as a separate powerset that's basically a copy of Dual Blades except with bludgeoning weapons & Smashing damage. That'd keep it in-line with prior sets like War Mace being separate from Battle Axe/Broadsword by dint of damage type and weapon theme while still being the exact same set as far as progression/animation goes. Plus, it'd allow room for some tweaks to make the two Dual sets unique from each other (like giving Dual Blades some -Def like Katana/Ninja Blade have while Dual Wield gets Disorient a la War Mace, or something along those lines).

 

It is a bit kludge-y but it does follow the exact same set up that the original weapon sets do - which is 'outside of Katana, all of these are essentially carbon copies of each other because we separated out their damage types.'

I think making two separate but nearly identical sets is a waste, really. There's a reason they didn't make Titan Sword, Titan Mace, and Titan Axe. Or Glaive, Poleaxe, and Staff. Instead of risking making one set better than the others, which causes the lesser sets to be ignored, you make one set that encompasses all the options, so it's the best one. Since it's the only one.

You never see Battle Axe. You see lots of War Mace because it's the best of the sets, and Broad Sword because swords are just the coolest weapon.

[Ruin Mage]

Sure, this sounds like a cool idea.

[biostem]

More weapon options - all for it.  Reworking the entire set - I don't think it's needed.

[MistressOhm]

The only quibble I'd have with this change, is work in some kind of mechanic where one could key the typed damage (lethal vs smash) to the selected weaponry.  For added complexity (I can hear game coders groaning from here!) allow for both if a DW character has a blunt weapon in one hand but a bladed weapon in the other, but only every other attack as the 'handedness' gets switched, or half each on attacks that involve both hands/weapons.

 

In FAACT, if this particular costume = damage type tweak worked out properly, one could then introduce bokken (bamboo practice swords) to the Katana set, or razor wire gloves to the MA set.  Melee'ers could tune their powers to go after weaknesses or sidestep resistances of mobs they would be facing, simply by switching their costume up to equip the new items.

[El D]

1 hour ago, Wravis said:

I think making two separate but nearly identical sets is a waste, really. There's a reason they didn't make Titan Sword, Titan Mace, and Titan Axe. Or Glaive, Poleaxe, and Staff. Instead of risking making one set better than the others, which causes the lesser sets to be ignored, you make one set that encompasses all the options, so it's the best one. Since it's the only one.

You never see Battle Axe. You see lots of War Mace because it's the best of the sets, and Broad Sword because swords are just the coolest weapon.

 

Fair point! That was a design arrangement that CoH did grow out of as things progressed and is something that Homecoming actively works against, given the proliferation of weapon models to any set where they'd be fitting. It would definitely be the most direct route to just put the bludgeoning models on the Dual Blades set and rename it, though that still has the quibble of them dealing Lethal damage when they ought to be dealing Smashing...

 

Frankly, it'd solve a lot of issues if those two damage types just got rolled into one, especially since in most instances they use the exact same numbers as is anyway. 'Physical Damage' could cover everything non-elemental/toxic/psychic - fists, swords, bullets, knives, super strength, martial arts - and the particular delivery method used gets emphasized in the unique animations and secondary effects (some do disorient, some do knockdown, some do -Defense, some can swap ammo, etc.). If a specific enemy has a particular weakness to a certain type of weapon, have it keyed to the specific set rather than the damage type. Using Devouring Earth as an example, Broadsword deals more damage to Bladegrass while War Mace deals more damage to Quarries. That way the specific weapon chosen actually makes more of a difference.

Edited October 14, 2022 by El D

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Wravis said:

You never see Battle Axe. You see lots of War Mace because it's the best of the sets

Is it because war mace is smashing & stuns, whereas axe is lethal & knockups?  I mean, the animations seems almost 1-for-1, otherwise, (not counting the upcoming changes).

[Wravis]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

Is it because war mace is smashing & stuns, whereas axe is lethal & knockups?  I mean, the animations seems almost 1-for-1, otherwise, (not counting the upcoming changes).

Yeah. Too much unplanned pregnancy with all that knockup.

[Six-Six]

could I also slip in the request to add a knife blade down holding option?

[InvaderStych]

Floki approves more weapon models for Dual Blades Wield.

 

[Wravis]

The possibilities are endless!

[Blood Speaker]

On 10/14/2022 at 9:28 AM, Wravis said:

But if that's really the reason, I propose a change! Make it Dual Wield. This adds even more options than just batons. You can add axes too! It unlocks so much customization potential!

 

We can already have dual Battle Axes, and it already baffles me as to why there aren't any others.

[TalonMC]

I would love to have dual batons as an option for Dual Blades.  Even if the damage type isn't changed.  I just want the cosmetic choice to wield batons instead of blades.  More specifically, I made an rpg character over 30 years ago who wields dual stun batons that are similar to a TVA prune stick (with customizable light at the end).

 

 

-MC

Edited Saturday at 07:24 PM by TalonMC
added image

[Stormwalker]

Honestly, I don't think the rename is even needed.  Just expand the weapon customization options.  I once proposed on Live bokken and shinai options for Katana and those were rejected on the grounds that they aren't the correct damage type.  Which, at the time, OK, that was in line with the devs' rules for weapon customization, but even then I thought it was ridiculous that a Katana scrapper couldn't fight with the training version of their own weapon.

 

But somewhere along the way, those rules got thrown out, and now we have plenty of weapon customization options that don't match the damage type.  So there's no reason blunt options shouldn't be available for bladed sets if they fit with the animations.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Titan weapon has 5 bludgeoning weapons, 8 swords, and 2 axes but it deals only smashing damage.

 

I think it's fair to say that if we can ignore that Excalibur and minotaur axes don't deal lethal, or the things like the fire & ice sword don't deal an appropriate element or the plasma blade, PX-17N, or VK-99 don't deal energy damage, we should be able to suspend our disbelief on other things in dual blades.

 

Lets also not ignore that Battle Axe has a flaming axe and that Romulus's nictus axe, and both still deal only lethal damage. And the recent addition of crossbows to dual pistols despite them still making bang bang bullet noises instead of shooting arrows has not affected anyone's fun.

 

So open the dual blades floodgates already. Let us swing more axes (and shovels), throw in some war mace options, maybe even scale down some of the titan weapons.

 

some other options: gabriel's hammer temp power sledge hammer, some of the weapons on display on the black market and base item trophy cases and even magic wands like the blackstaff from START vendor and the original one you can get from croatoa.

[TheMoneyMaker]

On 3/29/2025 at 3:17 PM, TalonMC said:

I would love to have dual batons as an option for Dual Blades.  Even if the damage type isn't changed.  I just want the cosmetic choice to wield batons instead of blades.  More specifically, I made an rpg character over 30 years ago who wields dual stun batons that are similar to a TVA prune stick (with customizable light at the end).

 

 

-MC

Right? Imagine dual wielding a pair of these:

[Frozen Burn]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:28 PM, Wravis said:

I've always wondered why Dual Blades doesn't have baton options to select from. There are plenty of characters in various comics and media that fight with two sticks rather than two swords, like Daredevil and Nightwing. It's a comic book staple, and it really makes no sense that we can't do it in CoH. Especially with the addition of police batons that war mace received.

A few people have claimed the reason batons aren't a dual blade option is that they are not blades. Which, well, duh. But that's a stupid reason. You swing batons the same way you swing swords. It's the same (or very similar) fighting style, just with less lacerations and maiming.

But if that's really the reason, I propose a change! Make it Dual Wield. This adds even more options than just batons. You can add axes too! It unlocks so much customization potential!

There are so many positives and very few negatives that I can think of.

Pros:

• Adds a significant amount of customization by including maces and axes to the powerset.
• More combinations of weapons to show off the new sheathe feature.
• Less grievous injuries by removing the requirement to have blades. Whacking guys with batons is more heroic than cutting them.
• With axes and maces both added, you can make a very efficient butcher. Butcher knife in one hand, meat tenderizer in the other. Cut down on time and labor!
• With maces as an option, you can make a very efficient handyman. Crow bar in one handy, wrench in the other.
   

Cons:

• Decision Paralysis. More options means more choice which means harder decisions.
• Change is scary.

 

An example of the changes could look something like the following:

Dual Blades Revamp

• Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, and Tanker powersets name "Dual Blades" has been changed to "Dual Wield".
• War Mace and Battle Axe weapon options are now available for this powerset.

 

Changes to Dual Blades, now Dual Wield (all Archetypes):

 

• Nimble Strike
  • "Nimble Slash" has been renamed to "Nimble Strike"
• Power Strike
  • "Power Slice" has been renamed to "Power Strike"
• Typhoon Sweep (Brute, Tanker, Scrapper)
  • "Typhoon's Edge" has been renamed to "Typhoon Sweep".
• Assassin's Strike (Stalker)
  • "Assassin's Blades" has been renamed to "Assassin's Strike".
• Vengeful Strike
  • "Vengeful Slice" has been renamed to "Vengeful Strike".
• Flurry
  • "One Thousand Cuts" has been renamed to "Flurry".

 

 

 

 

Love the idea of dual batons!  But, I don't think we need to rework Dual Blades to achieve it. 

 

As you stated, DB is is for bladed weapons, and lethal damage.  Reworking to add in clubs, would be smashing damage, but a powerset can't switch damage types by switching a costume part.  And dual batons should not be doing lethal damage.  Also, just changing the set name to "Dual Wield" is too vague and can open a can of worms we may not want or need to.  "Dual Wield" also means Dual Pistols or dual wielding anything else down the line  - dual wielding ARs or Beam Rifles??  😄  It's very muddy conceptually.

 

Instead, let's just make a Dual Mace/Club set for smashing damage and leave DB alone with it's lethal damage.  While I am no Dev, I would think it would be far easier to create a new dual wielding club set based off War Mace vs. reworking Dual Blades to incorporate what we want here.  This would also be a cleaner and clearer path to move forward with the existing game.  

 

[TheMoneyMaker]

46 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

Love the idea of dual batons!  But, I don't think we need to rework Dual Blades to achieve it. 

 

As you stated, DB is is for bladed weapons, and lethal damage.  Reworking to add in clubs, would be smashing damage, but a powerset can't switch damage types by switching a costume part.  And dual batons should not be doing lethal damage.  Also, just changing the set name to "Dual Wield" is too vague and can open a can of worms we may not want or need to.  "Dual Wield" also means Dual Pistols or dual wielding anything else down the line  - dual wielding ARs or Beam Rifles??  😄  It's very muddy conceptually.

 

Instead, let's just make a Dual Mace/Club set for smashing damage and leave DB alone with it's lethal damage.  While I am no Dev, I would think it would be far easier to create a new dual wielding club set based off War Mace vs. reworking Dual Blades to incorporate what we want here.  This would also be a cleaner and clearer path to move forward with the existing game.  

 

See my above post regarding Titan Weapons.  No need to switch damage, just let it be lethal damage blunt weapon models.

[Wravis]

As I stated in the text of this very old revived thread. I don't think a rework is necessary but people complain about damage types not making sense if they aren't blades.

I'm aware it doesn't need to be renamed to achieve the same result. But if the devs are using that as their excuse, then this is a solution.

[TheMoneyMaker]

10 minutes ago, Wravis said:

I don't think a rework is necessary but people complain about damage types not making sense if they aren't blades.
 

I don't think that's a valid complaint considering that other weapon sets have examples of things that don't really fit the damage type of the set.

[Rudra]

On the one hand, I really like the idea of a differentiated set that does smashing damage. On the other hand, we already have weapon models in Dual Blades that don't look like they should be doing lethal damage. The Fire and Ice Sword looks more like a narrow club with too short and fat an edge to really cut anything and so should probably be doing smashing damage while the both the Elemental Fire and Ice Sword and the Greater Fire Sword should be doing fire damage. Not to mention the energy weapons that can be argued should be doing energy damage. And actual sais don't have cutting edges, they are blunt tip round posts sticking out of their curved guard/handle. So sure, you can tear skin with the tip, but you aren't going to be cutting/slashing targets. (Though some comic sais are actually poniard daggers in a sai configuration, so by that consideration sais work just fine.) So it makes sense to just add tonfa, batons, stun sticks, or whatever to the set as options for weapon models. It alleviates the need to come up with a different version that has some added mechanic to make it not Dual Blades beyond just converting to smashing damage and simplifies the process of getting the desired weapons added.

 

(Edit: Oh yeah, I don't see a point to renaming the set or its powers. The only set I think needs to be renamed is Necromancy, but for different reasons. Just like Fire Breath doesn't need to be renamed just because we can select an alternate animation that isn't breathing fire, I don't think a rename is called for just for adding weapon models. [Edit again: Yes, that makes me a hypocrite. No, I don't care.])

 

Edited Monday at 06:48 PM by Rudra

[keyguardactive]

I did wonder about that. I've seen you be hard line about weapon sets having to have weapons, but people can be contradictory. Live your best life. 

 

I would probably roll a dual blade scrapper if I could use batons or escrima sticks instead of swords. Just feels more like a thing I would enjoy playing.