SuperSpeed stealth nerf

[KeepDistance]

Today I discovered that the stealth exclusivity changes advertised in page 5 affect SuperSpeed.

 

This suprised me since, being advertised as a QoL change, I figured it would not affect how I build my characters. I could not have been more wrong. My characters with Shadow Fall, Arctic Fog, etc will now need to take the stealth IO proc in order to achieve invis against normal mobs in PvE. I don't even know what I'll do with the toons that already had the stealth proc for use against mobs with boosted perception. I guess achieving invis against those mobs is now impossible?

 

The feedback change on this is locked but I am really, really unhappy with this change being advertised as QoL when it is, in fact, a nerf to SuperSpeed.

 

I am also unhappy with the short duration of p5 being on Brainstorm for feedback. The whole release feels rushed.

[Glacier Peak]

Not here to argue one way or the other, but the changes were clearly advertised  throughout beta testing and when it was released in the patch notes. Cheers!

 

Quote

Stealth Toggle Exclusivity Removal

Player Stealth Toggles, with the exception of temporary powers, are no longer exclusive. Players can now use multiple stealth toggle powers at the same time, however the stealth radius, defense, and threat level of these powers will not stack. Instead, the strongest effect from these powers will be used (much like how travel power stacking currently works). The powers that fall within these stealth toggle rules are listed below.

List of Stealth Toggles

• Arctic Fog
• Cloak of Darkness
• Cloaking Device
• Energy Cloak
• Field Operative
• Infiltration
• Mask Presence
• Shadow Fall
• Shinobi
• Shinobi-Iri
• Stealth
• Steamy Mist
• Super Speed
• Superior Invisibility

 

[SeraphimKensai]

I was during page 5 beta and still am a staunch supporter of removing superspeed from the stealth exclusivity list for all of the reasons I used in the focused feedback thread during the beta.

 

From what I've been told it seems like Faultline handled compiling the game, and he was walking away from the game and the rest of the dev team asked him to compile page 5 before he stepped down. That said, this is hearsay however and from a third source.

[Ruin Mage]

16 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

he was walking away from the game and the rest of the dev team asked him to compile page 5 before he stepped down.

He's not stepping down or walking away. He's on a break.

Whoever your third source is has a weird sense of things, but that aside.

[SeraphimKensai]

4 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

He's not stepping down or walking away. He's on a break.

Whoever your third source is has a weird sense of things, but that aside.

Ah. I never really asked too much into it, just saw that he was flagged as a regular forum member instead of on the dev team, so I had assumed the story I heard checked out.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Not here to argue one way or the other, but the changes were clearly advertised  throughout beta testing and when it was released in the patch notes. Cheers!

 

 

So... stealth got nerfed? My MM won't be able to sneak past mobs any more by virtue of having a stealth proc and shadowfall? That's as frustrating as when they "fixed" Phase Shift....

 

Edit: Sorry, changed Phase Shift. Since it was never declared a fix that I know of.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Rudra

[Glacier Peak]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So... stealth got nerfed? My MM won't be able to sneak past mobs any more by virtue of having a stealth proc and shadowfall? That's as frustrating as when they "fixed" Phase Shift....

 

Edit: Sorry, changed Phase Shift. Since it was never declared a fix that I know of.

The stealth proc and Shadow Fall combined will still provide the same stealth amount. No change there - the change was related to how stealth powers stack. So you can now activate the Stealth power and Shadow Fall together.

[Rudra]

That's a relief. Was afraid I was going to have to go back and respec most of my characters.

[Harakh]

8 hours ago, KeepDistance said:

Today I discovered that the stealth exclusivity changes advertised in page 5 affect SuperSpeed.

 

This suprised me since, being advertised as a QoL change, I figured it would not affect how I build my characters. I could not have been more wrong. My characters with Shadow Fall, Arctic Fog, etc will now need to take the stealth IO proc in order to achieve invis against normal mobs in PvE. I don't even know what I'll do with the toons that already had the stealth proc for use against mobs with boosted perception. I guess achieving invis against those mobs is now impossible?

 

The feedback change on this is locked but I am really, really unhappy with this change being advertised as QoL when it is, in fact, a nerf to SuperSpeed.

 

I am also unhappy with the short duration of p5 being on Brainstorm for feedback. The whole release feels rushed.

 

I was distracted with other changes that superspeed stealth radius and my fortunas hide not stacking stealth radius went unnoticed while reading the notes, and frankly wasn't testing stealth radius before release.

...I thought I was drunk last night or the game was bugged when my toon kept getting noticed.

 

What is the actual point of this? I can toggle two skills but only one works? What am I missing??

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Harakh

[Glacier Peak]

15 minutes ago, Harakh said:

I was distracted with other changes that superspeed stealth radius and my fortunas hide not stacking stealth radius went unnoticed while reading the notes, and frankly wasn't testing stealth radius before release.

...I thought I was drunk last night or the game was bugged when my toon kept getting noticed.

 

What is the actual point of this? I can toggle two skills but only one works? What am I missing??

Stealth providing powers were unable to be activated with other stealth providing powers which also provided additional benefits. For example, Cold Domination's Arctic Fog could not be activated with Stealth, so the player would need to decide what benefit was worth more in a given situation. Do they activate Arctic Fog for the +Def, +Res (Fire, Cold, Energy, Slow) or do they instead use Stealth +Def (All).

 

Now with these changes, players can have Arctic Fog active the same time as Stealth. And the power with the highest bonus in a given category is the active buff - so Arctic Fog provides some stealth to the player, but Stealth provides the most (outside of Superior Invisibility), so the active buff from Stealth will be was is used. 

 

Edit: Furthermore, as Booper alluded to during the beta feedback thread, "SS is 35, IO is 30, Stealth is 55, while most enemies have a perception of 54' or less. So stealth by itself is enough, or the combination of the IO with basically any stealth power is enough." It was also mentioned that that is for the majority of the game's enemies perception distance - there are exceptions at higher levels and during specific content where using just Stealth may not be enough to completely slip past the enemy. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[Uun]

The only "nerf" is to people who used Super Speed plus Shadow Fall/Steamy Mist/etc. to achieve a 70 foot stealth radius. Those no longer stack and they will need to use a stealth IO or Stealth instead of Super Speed.

[Doomguide2005]

14 hours ago, Uun said:

The only "nerf" is to people who used Super Speed plus Shadow Fall/Steamy Mist/etc. to achieve a 70 foot stealth radius. Those no longer stack and they will need to use a stealth IO or Stealth instead of Super Speed.

 

Which if I'm reading right means Steamy Mist plus Super Speed equals all of Steamy Mist  benefits (incl 35ft stealth) plus the -1 (-100%) threat level of Super Speed.

[Sirius.Games]

Stealth io can go in sprint iirc. This means you have to have more engagement and choose when you stealth but the secondary effects are now able to stack. it's a nerf for those using SS+another power but otherwise a buff and qol improvement if you employ the IO.

[KeepDistance]

On 10/22/2022 at 5:21 AM, Uun said:

The only "nerf" is to people who used Super Speed plus Shadow Fall/Steamy Mist/etc. to achieve a 70 foot stealth radius. Those no longer stack and they will need to use a stealth IO or Stealth instead of Super Speed.

Yes, that's the nerf I was talking about. No need for quotes there, it's a nerf. SS+Steamy Mist was invis before, now it isn't.

[KeepDistance]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:34 AM, Glacier Peak said:

Not here to argue one way or the other, but the changes were clearly advertised  throughout beta testing and when it was released in the patch notes. Cheers!

 

 

Bold mine. Putting a nerf under the section "Quality of Life Improvements" is far from clear, IMO.

[weewoozesty]

1 hour ago, KeepDistance said:

Bold mine. Putting a nerf under the section "Quality of Life Improvements" is far from clear, IMO.

It was a Quality of Life improvement though....

 

For the enemies.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, KeepDistance said:

Bold mine. Putting a nerf under the section "Quality of Life Improvements" is far from clear, IMO.

They were placed under the "Stealth Toggle Exclusivity Changes" as I noted in my first post. And since it's the Homecoming team's prerogative to put changes in the patch notes wherever they see fit, I'm not swayed by your opinion. Cheers!

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, KeepDistance said:

Bold mine. Putting a nerf under the section "Quality of Life Improvements" is far from clear, IMO.

 

47 minutes ago, weewoozesty said:

It was a Quality of Life improvement though....

 

For the enemies.

Being able to use multiple stealth powers was a quality of life improvement. Just like Hover and Flight no longer being exclusive and Combat Jumping and Super Leap no longer being exclusive. So while you can't stack the stealth effects of the stealth powers, you still get the unique benefits any given stealth power may have in conjunction with each other. I still need to check to see how the change affects my triple-stealth Stalker build, but from the notes, it looks like it may only be a double now. (Edit: Not that it ever had any effect against snipers, Watchers, or Rikti Drones....)

Edited November 1, 2022 by Rudra

[Doomguide2005]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Being able to use multiple stealth powers was a quality of life improvement. Just like Hover and Flight no longer being exclusive and Combat Jumping and Super Leap no longer being exclusive. So while you can't stack the stealth effects of the stealth powers, you still get the unique benefits any given stealth power may have in conjunction with each other. I still need to check to see how the change affects my triple-stealth Stalker build, but from the notes, it looks like it may only be a double now. (Edit: Not that it ever had any effect against snipers, Watchers, or Rikti Drones....)

Snipers?

Hide (Hidden status) alone makes you imperceptible to pretty much everything.  A sniper would have to benefit from a +perception power/ability (i.e. Tactics) to see you or your Hidden status be suppressed etc. for you to be seen.  For example, you attack a nearby (less than 150 ft away) mob or click a glowie.

Drones, Watchers, and KoA just simply ignore stealth.  Their perception range is standard for their various ranks (45, 50, 55, 66 etc.).

Edited November 2, 2022 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Snipers?

Hide (Hidden status) alone makes you imperceptible to pretty much everything.  A sniper would have to benefit from a +perception power/ability (i.e. Tactics) to see you or your Hidden status be suppressed etc. for you to be seen.  For example, you attack a nearby (less than 150 ft away) mob or click a glowie.

Drones, Watchers, and KoA just simply ignore stealth.  Their perception range is standard for their various ranks (45, 50, 55, 66 etc.).

Yes, snipers. Like the Nemesis snipers (Tirailleurs and Comets) and the Council snipers that see you regardless of your levels of stealth at full aggro range.

[Doomguide2005]

Just now, Rudra said:

Yes, snipers. Like the Nemesis snipers (Tirailleurs and Comets) and the Council snipers that see you regardless of your levels of stealth at full aggro range.

     Nope something else going on if they saw you unless something was bugged or changed.

Sniper perception is 149ft

Stalker Hide is 150ft --> 149 - 150 = invisible.

Result if Hidden is functioning is they see you at -1 ft.  Since that's physically impossible something else is at work.

[Rudra]

Don't know what you are talking about. Even before the stacking stealth change, my stalkers would be in Hide, with stealth proc, and Stealth, and the snipers always saw me. Every time where no other mobs did.

[Doomguide2005]

On 11/2/2022 at 1:06 PM, Rudra said:

Don't know what you are talking about. Even before the stacking stealth change, my stalkers would be in Hide, with stealth proc, and Stealth, and the snipers always saw me. Every time where no other mobs did.

Then there's either a bug or some other detail unaccounted for.  My first redside 50 was a Stalker.  Something may have been changed in game and isn't reflected in either the wiki or CoD but Snipers as a whole shouldn't be seeing you to the best of my knowledge.  Their perception is 149ft.  Your Stealth is 150ft.  You should be able to stand nose to nose making funny faces at them without them lifting a finger.  If that isn't the case I'd love more details like which Sniper and what your combat attributes says your stealth is while Hidden status is being reported.

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Then there's either a bug or some other detail unaccounted for.  My first redside 50 was a Stalker.  Something may have been changed in game and isn't reflected in either the wiki or CoD but Snipers as a whole shouldn't be seeing you to the best of my knowledge.  Their perception is 149ft.  Your Stealth is 150ft.  You should be able to stand nose to nose making funny faces at them without them lifting a finger.  If that isn't the case I'd love more details like which Sniper and what your combat attributes says your stealth is while Hidden status is being reported.

They've seen me since CoV launched and snipers started appearing.

 

"Snipers are usually found alone, outdoors, lying in wait for a target to present themselves. They have very long range and see through stealth easily. As they have long range attacks, they will detect and aggro on players from great distances, and are usually in high or hidden locations. They will often only be noticed when they attack players, causing damage from an "unknown" source."

 

Except for the bolding, that is pasted straight from https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Sniper.

 

Edit:

"Note

• Some enemies use long range attacks and include the term "Sniper" in their attack power names, but are not Sniper-class enemies and do not share their distinct behaviours, such as immobility. Examples include The Family and Mook Hitmen."

 

Snipers are a specific class of mob, like a hybrid Lieutenant-Boss, but at lieutenant tier. When you see Sniper instead of Minion or Lieutenant, then you are dealing with a sniper. If their name is Sniper, that does not mean they are snipers.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add quotation marks.

[Doomguide2005]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

They've seen me since CoV launched and snipers started appearing.

 

Snipers are usually found alone, outdoors, lying in wait for a target to present themselves. They have very long range and see through stealth easily. As they have long range attacks, they will detect and aggro on players from great distances, and are usually in high or hidden locations. They will often only be noticed when they attack players, causing damage from an "unknown" source.

 

Except for the bolding, that is pasted straight from https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Sniper.

     And the data and math I'm using is straight from the article covering Stealth and Perception in the HCwiki as well as the CoD2.0 entry for an Ninjitsu and Regen Stalkers (and afaik all other Stalker ATs).   Snipers will most certainly see most characters at great distance but the Stalker AT and Illusionists using Superior Invisibility are pretty much invisible to all critters.  I've had more than a few characters popped moving through Founders' Falls or Peregrine Island pretty much as noted above (but the combat log would reveal the source if not their location).

 

     Edit:  Some of the text you quoted would be considered flavor text.  Long range is how far?  Even running the current version of the Stealth power you'd be seen quite a ways off when compared to most mobs (94 feet vs unnoticed)

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Doomguide2005