Phantom Army - dom vs troller

[Frosticus]

Ya we all know the troller version is superior because they can tank most anything the game throws at you and keep them taunted.

Sure it would have been great if the dom version did that as well, but such is life. 

 

However, what I didn't realize on test was the DAMAGE nerf they also hit the dom version with. The attacks do much less damage and have a larger healback % on several of them.

 

Troller PA punch  73.4 dam, 56.7 healback (70% healback)

Troller PA powerbolt 44.5 dam, 31.1 healback

 

Dom PA punch 55.6 dam, 43 healback (77% healback)

Dom PA powerbolt 37.4 dam, 26.2 healback

 

It's still a good power as far as pets go and I don't mean to look a gifthorse in the mouth because we finally have illusion. 

Beggars can't be choosers so I'm not saying it should have something to compensate like shorter rech, or small aoes (on the control aspects of the powers they use). I'm of the mindset that it would have been better to change the name of the power though because it is very different from the troller version which seems inconsistent relative to everything else in the game.

[Erratic1]

I think names only get changed when there are significant differences in behavior. If doing less damage were the criteria then every power in Blast sets between Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders, and Sentinels or in Melee Damage set between Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers would have different names.

 

Controllers deal damage via their controls. Dominators have Assault sets for that. Doing a bit less damage with Illusion as a control power while otherwise dealing damage with Assault powers does not strike me as the set not serving its fundamental control aspect. 

[Frosticus]

They also no longer taunt of course so they are no longer a "control" power via the same mechanisms that the controller version uses.

 

I'm drawing a blank on any other powers across the ATs that have been changed so fundamentally without a name change. Do you happen to have an example? 

 

Edit: dom PA also has some attacks not found on the troller version, which further segregates the two

Edited October 25, 2022 by Frosticus

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I'm drawing a blank on any other powers across the ATs that have been changed so fundamentally without a name change. Do you happen to have an example? 

 

Scrapper Concentrated Strike recharing Power Siphon while nothing like that happens for Brutes, Stalkers, or Tankers comes to mind.

[Frosticus]

27 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Scrapper Concentrated Strike recharing Power Siphon while nothing like that happens for Brutes, Stalkers, or Tankers comes to mind.

Scrapper version does that instead of critical damage. It is intended to be fair compensation whether true or not.

Stalker version works identical.

 

In this case the power is just objectively downgraded and different. 

 

[kelika2]

you have a whole secondary dedicated to damage

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Scrapper version does that instead of critical damage. It is intended to be fair compensation whether true or not.

 

 

Fair compensation? Power Siphon allows one to build bonus damage for a 20s duration with every successful hit getting more bonus along the way until hitting the cap. In any scenario where you are not whiffing it is a damage boost. But that is somewhat immaterial to the point which was a significantly altered mechanic not shared across powers with the same name--which I believe was your point.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Fair compensation? Power Siphon allows one to build bonus damage for a 20s duration with every successful hit getting more bonus along the way until hitting the cap. In any scenario where you are not whiffing it is a damage boost. But that is somewhat immaterial to the point which was a significantly altered mechanic not shared across powers with the same name--which I believe was your point.

It is identical across kinetic melee sets that have critical. Your point would be true if it crit for stalkers but not scraps right? 

 

So it is identical function across ATs which is my point.

 

PA is not,  I'm looking at MMs because they have divergences from normal buff/debuff but even those have different names when the power is altered

 

 

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

you have a whole secondary dedicated to damage

I'm not sure that means anything with regard to what I'm saying.

Do fire imps do less damage because doms have a secondary dedicated to damage?

Does confounding chant do less, or more on doms even though they have a secondary dedicated to damage?

 

I'm fine with illusion being revamped for doms and powers being changed.

 

I'm more or less fine with the power as redesigned even though they missed some really great opportunities with the changes. It just needs to indicate that it has been altered (fairly drastically) in function and performance from the other Phantom Army.

 

If a player used PA on a troller and then used it on a dom they would likely think it is bugged for one of them if they had no prior knowledge of the power. It really does behave quite differently. 

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Do fire imps do less damage because doms have a secondary dedicated to damage?

that analogy does not work because of Phantasm existing

[twozerofoxtrot]

I disagree slightly with OP.

 

Keep the name.

Amp the damage and drop soft controls.

 

Examples of powers with the same name but adjusted function:

 

Follow Up

Claws vs Widow: Widow has a small toxic dot and slightly less damage boost

 

Spin

Claws vs Widow: Widow has a small toxic dot, and less overall damage.

 

I'm sure there's way more, but just off the top of my head.

 

There's president for keeping the name the same with adjustments to the power. 

[Frosticus]

10 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

There's president for keeping the name the same with adjustments to the power. 

Yes there are numerous examples of AT specific adjustments to powers that go outside AT modifiers. They are usually minor, or flavour oriented like the differences between brute claws and scrapper claws.

 

FWIW widow follow up doesn't have dot toxic. It works exactly the same as regular followup albeit with a moderate adjustment to base recharge. The boost it gives is governed by AT modifiers (boostup), which are higher for scrappers, blasters, lower for brutes etc.

 

Spin is a fine example though.

 

The primary difference is twofold:

1. There are clearly documented. Widow spin clearly shows the damage, recharge and bonus toxic in plain sight.

2. The differences are explained via the ingame description of the power - yada yada "and poisons and slows the enemy"

3. Those powers still work exactly the same and still do the same function via the same mechanics.

4. If widow spin did something distinctly different, like an aoe stun it would be named something different. You can bet on that.

 

There was no communcation with devs (in open beta), but it comes down to what the power "phantom army" actually means.

The two versions share the fact that they summon 3 intangible phantoms. Every other aspect of the power from the control mechanics to the damage, to the powers they use, to the animations within have been changed. It is not explained or documented in game.

 

If spectral terror cast holds for doms rather than fear it would have received a name change.

 

Blaster secondary manipulation powers provide a pretty clear path. A LOT of those powers were altered to become sustain powers. /elec manip had several revisions on its sustain with lightning field ultimately becoming dynamo. It is still lightning field, but now does different things so it warranted a name change. They could have just left it as  lightning field and told players "figure it out". 

 

Dom phantom army is still 3 summons, but it does completely different things via different mechanics and different powers. It warrants a name change, or it warrants a clear description of the different functionality in game.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Frosticus

[twozerofoxtrot]

7 hours ago, Frosticus said:

it warrants a clear description of the different functionality in game

 

I agree with this,  but I think your main argument that the power does:

 

7 hours ago, Frosticus said:

completely different things

 

..is hyperbolic and as such not very likely to encourage the changes you're looking for.

 

A gander at CoD shows it's a change of two powers and the loss of taunt. The lower damage also distinguishes it but pointing to your response above different damage across AT expression of powers isn't enough.

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm still of the mind that changing the name is not a good way to go, and would rather have the power look more like the Controller version but without the taunt. 

[Erratic1]

21 hours ago, Frosticus said:

It is identical across kinetic melee sets that have critical. Your point would be true if it crit for stalkers but not scraps right? 

 

 

Like PA is identical across ATs which have buffs as secondaries? 

[Frosticus]

5 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

I agree with this,  but I think your main argument that the power does:

 

 

..is hyperbolic and as such not very likely to encourage the changes you're looking for.

A gander at CoD shows it's a change of two powers and the loss of taunt. The lower damage also distinguishes it but pointing to your response above different damage across AT expression of powers isn't enough.

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm still of the mind that changing the name is not a good way to go, and would rather have the power look more like the Controller version but without the taunt. 

Gander again.  Every single power is changed.

A new melee attack was added. A different melee attack was taken away. A new ranged attack was added. A different ranged attack was taken away.

Melee attacks without weapons now stun

Melee attack with weapon now sleeps...? ok that's a new one for an ice sword

Ranged attacks now knock down 

Other ranged attacks now sleep...? ok ice blast is now a sleep power I guess. 

 

Every single attack now uses a different animation/cast time

Troller cast times range from 1.4 sec - 1.84 sec for 7 of the attacks with only hurl at 2.64 sec

Dom cast times rare all 2.64 sec for all 8 attacks

 

By this logic we could tank Taunt from a tanker, turn it into a sleep power and call it good as long as it was still an auto hit?

 

These two phantom army powers are about as similar and as different as the two poison trap powers. But they are found in completely different debuff sets. So I guess that makes it ok for them to share the name...

[twozerofoxtrot]

14 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

So I guess that makes it ok for them to share the name...

 

Gander again, I want the Dom version to look more like the controller version, as I've mentioned in every reply.

[biostem]

So do the powers in the other sets that doms & controllers both have access to, deal different amount of damage as well?  If so, are they in line with this discrepancy?

[MoonSheep]

about a 40% reduction in power - quite a shame. had hyped myself up for an illusion dom

 

may have to find a nice pairing and make an ill controller instead

 

@Xiddo

[Xiddo]

10 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

about a 40% reduction in power - quite a shame. had hyped myself up for an illusion dom

 

may have to find a nice pairing and make an ill controller instead

 

@Xiddo

Fine! We’ll make an Ill/time and an Ill/cold pairing.

[MoonSheep]

Just now, Xiddo said:

Fine! We’ll make an Ill/time and an Ill/cold pairing.

 

time to hype myself up for an alt i’ll never play 😍

 

ill/sonic is tempting, have been wanting to play one for quite a while. can place the hulahoops round phantasm and buff him into Big Strong Boiye status

[Hopestar]

If Illusion were ported to Blaster, it would've been a 40% increase in damage instead, last 50% longer, and they would've kept their ability to tank everything.

[serxiom]

I have a Ill/Ice Dominator lvl 50 (working in incarnates atm) and im under the impression that Illusion got more damage output than the rest of the other primaries. I would say is top dps atm for Doms... or im wrong? My top dps dominator was Ice/Energy and it looks this one is pairing the same dps output.

[Hopestar]

Top DPS vs Plant or Dark? I have my doubts...

[laudwic]

9 minutes ago, serxiom said:

I have a Ill/Ice Dominator lvl 50 (working in incarnates atm) and im under the impression that Illusion got more damage output than the rest of the other primaries. I would say is top dps atm for Doms... or im wrong? My top dps dominator was Ice/Energy and it looks this one is pairing the same dps output.

 

I am leveling up a Ill/Eng right now.  Compared to the Symphony/Energy I just leveled up it is no where near as effective.  Confounding Chant is not as 'neat' but far more effective than the DOM version of PA for damage output and far better as a control.  Enfeebling Lullaby does more damage than Gleam.  Impassioned Serenade does damage as confuse while Deceive does not.  Personally, no damage is better as you can sit at range and hit a boss with confuse twice before it notices something is going on.  Personally, Illusion is just 'ok' on DOMs.  Five of Nine can benefit from Domination.  Gleam is too similar to Flash.  

 

Frankly, if you want Illusion, the Controller version has FAR superior versions of Phantom Army and Phantasm as the Controller versions have controls through taunt rather than knockdown/sleep/stun and the Controller versions of the powers do significantly more damage.  Spectral Wall on Dom is a single target Immobilize, great graphics but generally skippable, Gleam is better than Group Invisibility but that superiority is negated a little as I don't see the need for both Gleam and Flash in a build.  The main advantage of the Dom version of Illusion is Spectral Terror is at 6 rather than 22.  Note, this was all brought up in the Beta responses to this power set with no response.

[serxiom]

18 minutes ago, laudwic said:

I am leveling up a Ill/Eng right now.  Compared to the Symphony/Energy I just leveled up it is no where near as effective.  Confounding Chant is not as 'neat' but far more effective than the DOM version of PA for damage output and far better as a control.  Enfeebling Lullaby does more damage than Gleam.  Impassioned Serenade does damage as confuse while Deceive does not.

Illusion on Dominators got PA and PH, Both Pets are way ahead on DPS than Symphony Pet which is weak even if you compare it with Dark control pets. Im not a mathematic in game player but from having 8 dominators i can tell that Illusion as a primary got more DPS than the rest of the other sets. 

 

I agree with you the lack of control of Illusion on doms. Having all NPCs bouncing everywhere due knockbaks or not having tha advantage of Pet tauntig as controllers, makes Illusion chaotic in some point but still manageable. 

Controller Illusion version is superior because got a perfect balance of dps/control and on top of that you can use buff/debuffs from seconday powersets making a Illusion troller more effective than a Dominators for some types of content.