Brute's Advantage

[Rudra]

This request will likely upset many players. At least the Tanker players. Anyway, the request is simple:

 

Give Brute's back their advantage. Give them back their higher damage output.

 

When CoV launched, Brute's had the advantage of higher damage output compared to Tankers. Tankers had the better starting resists (and in some cases defense), but Brutes had the better damage. At least when they got their Fury going. However, I tried building a Tanker and a Brute with the exact same powers and enhancements. Admittedly, it was in Mids. And the Tanker had better damage resist. The Tanker had better END recovery compared to END use. The Tanker had better HP. The Tanker had the better status protections and status resists. They had more or less the same defense and regeneration though. And surprisingly, the Tanker had the better damage even though both builds were operating at the same 126% damage. Even with the Fury bar maxxed out, which is something no Brute can accomplish in game because of the insane rate of decay, the Tanker was doing much better damage than the Brute.

 

So I'm at a loss as to what the Brute can do that isn't done hands down better by the Tanker. If anyone can explain to me what advantage the Brute still enjoys over Tankers, I will consider deleting/hiding this request.

 

The Brutes were the red side version of Tankers. Tankers took damage better than Brutes, or at least had an easier time achieving max resists, but the Brute AT was the more damage focused red side version of Tankers. And before anyone chimes in with MMs are the red side version of Tankers, that isn't true and was never the design. MMs got Bodyguard Mode after the fact because MM players were complaining that mobs were ignoring all their pets and butchering the MMs. MMs weren't the red side equivalent of any blue side AT.

[biostem]

Brutes definitely need something.  I wonder if fury could be tweaked to work on a sort of diminishing returns system, since, as you pointed out, it is nearly impossible to really max out the bar - something like the first 25% of your fury bar would account for like 50-75% of the damage boost that a full fury bar gives now, then the next 25% would account for 10-20% of that full bar, and the remaining amount would count for that last little bit.  It would also be cool if build up, in addition to the existing buffs, fully maxed your fury bar.  Another idea would be to have things like debuffs also act to increase your fury.  Even with all that, perhaps buffing their secondaries to some value between scrappers and tankers, would go a long way to increasing their durability...

[Marine X]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

The Brutes were the red side version of Tankers.

Actually, according to the Original COH Developers, Masterminds were intended to occupy the Aggro Management/Tanker role in COV. Brutes were more their own thing, a Melee Based Archetype as most Tankers are, but where their Resistance and Defense were the secondary priority. I remember how awkward it was initially as a Tank Player to play a Brute. Masterminds Pets were designed to be the COV Meat Sheilds and do a pretty good job at it when built and used with that in mind, instead of how they often get used, as a wrecking crew. I do however aggree that the payback for Brutes reduced Resist/Def was intended to be better DPS, which is not always the case anymore. 

[TheZag]

Tanks damage was very low so it got buffed.  Some might say they have even got over buffed.  But buffing brutes because tanks got buffed isnt the answer.  2 months after a brute buff someone will be asking for a scrapper buff because brutes are doing as much as a scrapper.  Then an AoE buff for stalkers,  then they will say tanks damage is too low.  And the cycle will repeat.

 

[Glacier Peak]

I would just like to see the Fury bar hit 100% in normal gameplay. What other AT requires the use of an Alignment temporary power in order to use their inherent to its fullest potential?

 

(I'm referring to  Frenzy)

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, TheZag said:

Tanks damage was very low so it got buffed.  Some might say they have even got over buffed.  But buffing brutes because tanks got buffed isnt the answer.  2 months after a brute buff someone will be asking for a scrapper buff because brutes are doing as much as a scrapper.  Then an AoE buff for stalkers,  then they will say tanks damage is too low.  And the cycle will repeat.

 

Note that I never actually say to buff Brutes in the OP. I said to give them back their damage output in comparison to Tankers. That can be a buff to Brutes or a nerf to Tankers. Please note the attached images taken straight from the game. "Tankers deal the lowest damage of all melee archetypes." And yet, they have a higher starting damage than Brutes. And Brutes can't even close that gap with a full fury bar. Tankers have been pushing for years to make Brutes irrelevant. I can't recall how often I spoke with a Tanker player in the game and walked away seething because the player flat out told me Brutes should simply be removed from the game. Well, mechanically? They may as well have with all the buffs Tankers have gotten over the years and all the nerfs Brutes have gotten over the years.

 

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, Marine X said:

Actually, according to the Original COH Developers, Masterminds were intended to occupy the Aggro Management/Tanker role in COV. Brutes were more their own thing, a Melee Based Archetype as most Tankers are, but where their Resistance and Defense were the secondary priority. I remember how awkward it was initially as a Tank Player to play a Brute. Masterminds Pets were designed to be the COV Meat Sheilds and do a pretty good job at it when built and used with that in mind, instead of how they often get used, as a wrecking crew. I do however aggree that the payback for Brutes reduced Resist/Def was intended to be better DPS, which is not always the case anymore. 

And yet, when CoV launched, it was the Brutes the devs were saying were the red side version of Tankers. Especially since MMs have no inherent taunt ability, have no taunt power, and until they got Bodyguard Mode added to the game, had little survivability.

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I would just like to see the Fury bar hit 100% in normal gameplay. What other AT requires the use of an Alignment temporary power in order to use their inherent to its fullest potential?

 

I hit 100% on my Staff/Willpower frequently.  I have the Brute's Fury proc in Guarded Spin and use it every other attack.

 

It's almost meaningless, because it's really only a few extra points of damage, but it's not hard to do.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I hit 100% on my Staff/Willpower frequently.  I have the Brute's Fury proc in Guarded Spin and use it every other attack.

 

It's almost meaningless, because it's really only a few extra points of damage, but it's not hard to do.

I haven't been able to hit 100% Fury on any of my Brutes regardless of what I do or how many enemies I surround myself with. What's the trick?

[Glacier Peak]

22 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I hit 100% on my Staff/Willpower frequently.  I have the Brute's Fury proc in Guarded Spin and use it every other attack.

 

It's almost meaningless, because it's really only a few extra points of damage, but it's not hard to do.

This is welcome news! I don't play Brutes too often, so I must've put that ATO in a power that doesn't benefit from the proc mechanics. Outside of the ATO (and Frenzy), is my statement still accurate?

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

This is welcome news! I don't play Brutes too often, so I must've put that ATO in a power that doesn't benefit from the proc mechanics. Outside of the ATO (and Frenzy), is my statement still accurate?

I'm with @Glacier Peak on this. Aside from Brutes having been nerfed into being an overall inferior AT compared to Tankers, no other AT in the game relies on a specific enhancement proc or temp power to maximize their inherent ability or even try to fully utilize their inherent ability.

 

Edit:

What can Stalkers do? They can inherently sneak around and 1-shot mobs before combat even begins with their planned criticals and assassination attack.

What can Scrappers do? They get automatic criticals, the likelihood of which increases as their enemy's level increases.

What can Tankers do? They can automatically taunt up to 10 enemies, soak insane amounts of damage, and still do solid damage.

What can Brutes do? Everything a Tanker can do, but at lower levels of capability.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Rudra

[Aracknight]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm with @Glacier Peak on this. Aside from Brutes having been nerfed into being an overall inferior AT compared to Tankers, no other AT in the game relies on a specific enhancement proc or temp power to maximize their inherent ability or even try to fully utilize their inherent ability.

There's more than a few Scrapper posts pointing out that Scrappers are only competitive with other melee ATs due to the Scrapper ATOs.

[Glacier Peak]

12 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

There's more than a few Scrapper posts pointing out that Scrappers are only competitive with other melee ATs due to the Scrapper ATOs.

Yeah I think (correct me if I am wrong) that Scrappers have a higher chance to Crit on certain attacks (like Eagles Claw), and the ATO proc provides a guaranteed crit chance as opposed to a straight percentage. If this is true, ATOs are really supplementary solutions to each AT's inherent weakness, whether by design or unintended. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Glacier Peak
spacing

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

There's more than a few Scrapper posts pointing out that Scrappers are only competitive with other melee ATs due to the Scrapper ATOs.

 

The Scrapper is a fierce melee combatant. In hand to hand, no other hero can compare. All Scrapper melee attacks have a chance to land a Critical Hit for up to double damage. The higher the rank of the target, the greater the chance for a successful Critical Hit.

The standard chance of a Critical Hit is 5% against players, pets, and critters of Minion rank and below, and 10% against critters above Minion. ( https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Critical_Hit )

 

Contrast that to having an inherent that because of increasing rate of decay the more full it is, keeps most Brutes locked at no more than 80-90% of their inherent's full ability. We're not talking about having an inherent that is already good and gets improved by the AT's ATO procs. We're talking about an AT that can't even utilize its own inherent to full normal listed ability without either the Frenzy power or the ATO proc. (Edit: Or in cases like me apparently, even with the ATO proc. That Scrapper's could use a boost to their crit chance for enemies higher than minion, preferably scaling with the increased rank, isn't part of this discussion.)

Edited December 28, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I haven't been able to hit 100% Fury on any of my Brutes regardless of what I do or how many enemies I surround myself with. What's the trick?

 

19 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I have the Brute's Fury proc in Guarded Spin and use it every other attack.

 

Guarded/Innocuous/Guarded/Eye is my AoE chain, Guarded/Serpent's/Guarded/Sky is my single-target chain.  Superior Brute's Fury: Recharge/Fury Bonus is 5 PPM.  It has about a 1 in 3 chance of triggering on every enemy hit on this character.  If my cone is saturated (5 targets), it's very, very unlikely that it will fail to trigger.  Even if I'm down to a single target, it's about a ~34% chance, and since I'm using it every 2-3 seconds, it's sufficient to maintain my Fury above 90% in worst case scenarios and peg 100% very often.

 

 

 

 

 

As can be seen in these screenshots, I'm hitting 100% on every spawn as I work my way through this mission.  And that's with the proc slotted in a power with a 9' range (reduces proc chance), 90 degree arc (reduces proc chance), short base recharge time (reduces proc chance) and 123.53% Recharge Reduction from slotting and Agility Radial Paragon.

 

Easy peasy dirty sleazy.

[Aracknight]

Hmm.

 

Ok, but, if it says that a Brute's Fury, and therefore damage, increases the longer they are in combat, and increasing damage would naturally reduce time spent in combat given that doing more damage typically sends things to the hospital faster, wouldn't increasing damage make it even harder to top out Fury?

 

 

[Luminara]

42 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

This is welcome news! I don't play Brutes too often, so I must've put that ATO in a power that doesn't benefit from the proc mechanics. Outside of the ATO (and Frenzy), is my statement still accurate?

 

I don't know.  Since I can cap it so easily, I haven't investigated other methods of building or maintaining high Fury.  As I said, though, it doesn't really mean much.  Each point of Fury is 2% +Damage, and all +Damage is additive, so we're really talking about 20% +Damage tacked onto an attack that is already at 275% +Damage (180 from 90% Fury, 95% slotted +Damage), and it just doesn't add much overall.  On my Staff/Willpower, it adds about 11 points of damage to Guarded Spin, 13 points to Innocuous Strikes, 10 points to Eye of the Storm... the biggest bump is to Sky Splitter, which gains 23 damage.

 

Twenty three.  That's it.

 

The difference between 90% Fury and 100% Fury is, as far as I'm concerned, negligible.  It doesn't matter enough to make any effort to pursue it.  The only reason I have the proc at all is to build up Fury as rapidly as possible.

[InvaderStych]

33 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah I think (correct me if I am wrong) that Scrappers have a higher chance to Crit on certain attacks (like Eagles Claw), and the ATO proc provides a guaranteed crit chance as opposed to a straight percentage.

 

Correct on Eagle's Claw.  It and a couple other t9s (BS, Kat) get a flat 15% chance to crit regardless of enemy rank. Incorrect on Scrapper ATOs.

 

ATO1 increases the passive chance by either 2% or 4% depending on Standard/Superior.

 

ATO2 is a brief window of 50% increase, which is very good and hits often, but it is not a guarantee. Both Std/Superior offer the same bonus with a slight PPM rate increase from 2 to 3 for the Superior version.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I'm working on my "That Guy" Badge, which requires a great deal of "Well ... Ahkshually ..." style posts. 🍻

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Hmm.

 

Ok, but, if it says that a Brute's Fury, and therefore damage, increases the longer they are in combat, and increasing damage would naturally reduce time spent in combat given that doing more damage typically sends things to the hospital faster, wouldn't increasing damage make it even harder to top out Fury?

 

 

You're missing the point. My point isn't that I want to max out the Fury bar. My point is that the Brute AT does nothing unique and even with a full Fury bar does less damage than the "lowest damage melee AT" in the game with no benefit or other standard to set it out. Brutes are basically inferior Tankers in the game because of how often they got nerfed (without any buffing) and how often Tankers got buffed. Tankers complained they were the lowest damage melee AT in the game. The problem with that, is that Tankers were always billed as and are still billed as the lowest damage melee AT in the game. And they still do absolutely everything better than Brutes do, including damage.

[Aracknight]

14 hours ago, Rudra said:

 Give them back their higher damage output.

 

 

So moar damage wasn't the point?

 

I know you tried to bludgeon us with your patented sesquipedalian loquaciousness,  but is the core point Brutes need moar damage so do something with their inherent, Fury?

 

 

 

[TheZag]

Give brutes weaker tanks is a strange way to ask,  so yes,  i did word my post through the lens of give brutes more damage.

 

I did have an idea for a fury rework but it would probably step on too many toes and be better suited for a new archtype.  Then it runs into the problem of how many melee/armor ATs do we need.  I could probably make it work with assault/armor or armor/assault if i can come up with a name for this hypothetical AT.

 

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

So moar damage wasn't the point?

 

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

Give Brute's back their advantage. Give them back their higher damage output.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Note that I never actually say to buff Brutes in the OP. I said to give them back their damage output in comparison to Tankers. That can be a buff to Brutes or a nerf to Tankers.

You're just trolling the thread, aren't you? I'm disinclined to look up what "sesquipedalian" means. Do you have an actual valid complaint about the OP? Is there something Brutes do well compared to Tankers? Do Brutes have any advantage going for them mechanically or in game role?

 

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

If anyone can explain to me what advantage the Brute still enjoys over Tankers, I will consider deleting/hiding this request.

I even gave you a means of getting me to shut down the thread. Your comments seem less aimed at actually dealing with the content of the OP and more aimed at just causing a disruption. So here is my question to you: What exactly is your point? What are you trying to say about Brutes in reference to the OP?

[Zeraphia]

I'm honestly in the camp that in my opinion, Brutes' damage levels are fine/okay. 

 

What stops me from ever making a Brute is just simply the defense numbers on their secondary pool are just not there to justify ever making them over a Scrapper.

 

Yes, I could give up several proc opportunities (and tons of damage/endurance management) to actually get them to the 90% cap, but the 90% cap is essentially useless if I can never actually reach it regardless.

 

When I make Tankers, they just innately have enough Res for me to always merit making them because getting to their caps is just substantially easier.

 

So I come back to the conclusion of:

Why make a Brute when I can barely ever meet their Res cap, and if I'm not going to, why not just make a Scrapper and do more damage?

 

I think the true answer to solving this lies far more in actually giving Brutes a substantial boost to their secondary pools and survivability, in my opinion it's just too whittled down numerically to ever merit choosing them over Tank/Scrapper/Stalker.

 

EDIT: just a personal opinion, I don't really feel like making Brutes do more damage is a cure-all solution. Brutes, to me, should be an AT that functions well for casual gaming that is not reliant on teammates, and shines in solo mission play or an alternative Tank AT. With that said, for most AT combinations Brutes just barely edge out Tanks on some timed instances. Right now, there are several combinations of Tankers that just straight up out-class (just higher stats and easier build opportunities) Brutes in both damage and survivability, particularly among the Super Strength variety. Brutes are entirely out-classed in high-level play where people know what to do with inspirations and pop tons of reds/have kinetics on the team.

 

They just don't have the resistance there to make use of their 90% cap is essentially the sum of all I wrote and it severely hurts their build paths once compared to Scrapper who can just build less, and Tanker who just gets substantially more for free.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Zeraphia

[megaericzero]

Would you prefer if Brutes' base damage was increased but Fury's potency was reduced to compensate? Something like having higher base damage at zero Fury and reaching around the same final numbers at max Fury? I'm no mathematician but if it's recalculated that way with only raw damage in mind, it seems like it could work as a buff overall as enhancements would now be working with higher base numbers and the damage buff cap would now be further away.

 

For those worried about Fury not being 100% all the time, would it be better if it reached maximum buff before the last few percent (~90-95%) and the rest was just padding that could build and decay without impacting the buff value?

 

Close friends always seemed to prefer Brutes in the past, reasoning that they'd prefer the always-on damage buff that fluctuates slightly over sporadic double damage that they couldn't predict. It's been a long time since I looked at numbers or discussions - did things shift?

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Would you prefer if Brutes' base damage was increased but Fury's potency was reduced to compensate? Something like having higher base damage at zero Fury and reaching around the same final numbers at max Fury? I'm no mathematician but if it's recalculated that way with only raw damage in mind, it seems like it could work as a buff overall as enhancements would now be working with higher base numbers and the damage buff cap would now be further away.

 

For those worried about Fury not being 100% all the time, would it be better if it reached maximum buff before the last few percent (~90-95%) and the rest was just padding that could build and decay without impacting the buff value?

 

Close friends always seemed to prefer Brutes in the past, reasoning that they'd prefer the always-on damage buff that fluctuates slightly over sporadic double damage that they couldn't predict. It's been a long time since I looked at numbers or discussions - did things shift?

 

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

I tried building a Tanker and a Brute with the exact same powers and enhancements. Admittedly, it was in Mids. And the Tanker had better damage resist. The Tanker had better END recovery compared to END use. The Tanker had better HP. The Tanker had the better status protections and status resists. They had more or less the same defense and regeneration though. And surprisingly, the Tanker had the better damage even though both builds were operating at the same 126% damage. Even with the Fury bar maxxed out, which is something no Brute can accomplish in game because of the insane rate of decay, the Tanker was doing much better damage than the Brute.

It's Scrappers that get the chance for double damage. Tankers have been buffed and buffed and buffed. Brutes have been nerfed. Multiple times.

 

Your proposal would change nothing. A Tanker would still enjoy higher resist, better END use, higher HP, better status resist, better status protection, and do better damage than the Brute running with a full Fury bar. My preference would be to nerf Tanker's damage back down. They would still retain the higher resist, better END use, better status protection, and better status resist, but Brutes would finally have a role again in their damage output. Or someone can get creative and come up with something that makes Brutes stand out as their own role/AT. I really don't care. Reverting Brutes to doing better damage than Tankers would be the simplest solution in my book. Getting anything that makes Brutes stand out as something other than the Poor Man's Tanker is my end goal.