"Icoulddobetteritis"

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

This thread isn't really about when things are going smoothly - it's when things get shaky or you start wiping, and maybe you look at your team composition, and start to think "y'know, if that emp, who has clear mind, had applied it to those blasters over there, they wouldn't have gotten mezzed, leading to said wipe", or maybe you noticed that a controller on your team isn't holding those really nasty enemies, but they aren't doing a lot of buffing, either, yet you notice that they *do* have the requisite powers.  You're welcome to ignore your teammates or simply not be aware of who's on your team - that's your prerogative, but what I'm saying/asking is why people don't leverage the abilities that they *do* have, and how to nudge them toward using them in a positive and constructive way...

Yeah, I get that.

Even when I’m on teams that turn into total disasters, I’ve just never thought to look at my teammates powers and give them suggestions.  
I may say something along the lines of “anyone have clear mind?  It may help with this part” - but I never say it knowing that someone has it.  Only that no one has used it.

 

Guess it all comes down to personalities.  If a TF goes bad, I ask myself if there’s anything I could have done to make it go better, but Ive never been upset enough to start investigating what others did or didn’t do.

[SeraphimKensai]

8 hours ago, Snarky said:

It would have felt like 2 hours to me.  I have a friend that plays drunk that could probably solo a Synapse +4/x8 in less time than that.

I didn't know that you considered me a friend.

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Songseven said:

little rude Snark.....what you talking about +4 Synapses for anyways, seems you can't even handle a +1🤣

 

 

cant or do not want to?  I run the Synapse for the badge. and as a gauge of toons powers at that level.  I do not need two hours to figure out powers and the badge is the same at +0 as +1.

 

everyone else has the right to play how they want except me?

[SteelRat70]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

This thread isn't really about when things are going smoothly - it's when things get shaky or you start wiping, and maybe you look at your team composition, and start to think "y'know, if that emp, who has clear mind, had applied it to those blasters over there, they wouldn't have gotten mezzed, leading to said wipe", or maybe you noticed that a controller on your team isn't holding those really nasty enemies, but they aren't doing a lot of buffing, either, yet you notice that they *do* have the requisite powers.  You're welcome to ignore your teammates or simply not be aware of who's on your team - that's your prerogative, but what I'm saying/asking is why people don't leverage the abilities that they *do* have, and how to nudge them toward using them in a positive and constructive way...

 

If things start wiping, your first point of interrogation or improvement should be your own choices or power usage, not other peoples.  Chances are they'll be doing that themselves already.  It is the height of arrogance to assume that when things go wrong it's everyone elses fault and not possibly your own; or at least to discount the possibility of you making mistakes along with other people as well.

[Erratic1]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:26 PM, Spaghetti Betty said:

Sorry you've had bad experiences teaming with random Tanks. I can only speak for myself and I assure you that when I'm Tanking I always have the team's best interests in mind. But if they don't follow me? Well, I tried.

 

The other day I, playing my Water/Kinetics corruptor, was following the Tank around noticing how people were dying who, for whatever reason, were not with us. But that really does not reach the WTF level of a bit earlier when I was on my Tanker, in a group with 2 Tankers, and both of us Tankers were together but all but one other in the rest of the group were off making their health bars swing wildly up and down rather than following us.

 

Sometimes you wonder but so long as it does not get me killed....

[Erratic1]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:34 PM, Snarky said:

When I Tank I try to lead the team....where they want to go.  That took a loooong time to learn.  I play a Brute different, cannonballing where I want to.  But over the years I play Brutes more like a Tank....sometimes.

 

On my Brute I tend to leap to the next group if it is nearby and lead it back to the existing fight. Saves on "setup" time going from fight to fight.

[Snarky]

29 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

 

If things start wiping, your first point of interrogation or improvement should be your own choices or power usage, not other peoples.  Chances are they'll be doing that themselves already.  It is the height of arrogance to assume that when things go wrong it's everyone elses fault and not possibly your own; or at least to discount the possibility of you making mistakes along with other people as well.

You are kidding right?   I been  running a Posi1  since it came out.  I am on a Corruptor staying with the team debuffing/blasting/healing. People are pulling mobs from all over the city hall map.  Team is running off in three different directions.  People jump up to the steps and trigger the ambush while the rest of the team is dealing with half maps agro.  Team splits inside city hall going in different directions.   But i need to look at what power choices I made in the build….  Stop drinking in the morning.  It’s bad for you m’kay?

Edited January 6, 2023 by Snarky

[tidge]

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

On my Brute I tend to leap to the next group if it is nearby and lead it back to the existing fight. Saves on "setup" time going from fight to fight.

 

A word of caution: This is an observed dangerous behavior (Brutes, or anyone else really, relying on proximity or auras): waking up multiple spawns to "speed up" (especially low level) missions. The caution is this: we may be playing with mates that have AoE which will grab the spawns' aggro while you are hopping about.

 

I don't play Brutes, I will do the exact same behavior on certain ATs, but each has a different way of trying to keep the aggro to themselves when leveraging a "prime the next group" approach.

• Tankers: This should be obvious: Taunt the enemies in the distance, use (PB/Melee)AoE for Punchvoke, use ranged AoE (P2W, Pools) to excite ones in the distance.
• Controllers/Dominators: Have the AoE ready, including Immobilizes and Sleeps, patches when available.
• Defense-based characters: Stay with the spawn, keeping their attention.
• Blasters: I try to work a control-component into (long-range) cones. %Knockdown is an easy one to work into cone attacks at low levels.
• Masterminds: Let the henchmen take the abuse.

On many pick-up teams, it's my "control" characters that often take a LOT of fire, but even a purple-constructed and exemplared character is likely staring at a death-by-debuff in a Positron 1 or (more likely) 2 TF if teammates are casually aggroing multiple groups.

[Erratic1]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

A word of caution: This is an observed dangerous behavior (Brutes, or anyone else really, relying on proximity or auras): waking up multiple spawns to "speed up" (especially low level) missions. The caution is this: we may be playing with mates that have AoE which will grab the spawns' aggro while you are hopping about.

 

I don't play Brutes, I will do the exact same behavior on certain ATs, but each has a different way of trying to keep the aggro to themselves when leveraging a "prime the next group" approach.

• Tankers: This should be obvious: Taunt the enemies in the distance, use (PB/Melee)AoE for Punchvoke, use ranged AoE (P2W, Pools) to excite ones in the distance.
• Controllers/Dominators: Have the AoE ready, including Immobilizes and Sleeps, patches when available.
• Defense-based characters: Stay with the spawn, keeping their attention.
• Blasters: I try to work a control-component into (long-range) cones. %Knockdown is an easy one to work into cone attacks at low levels.
• Masterminds: Let the henchmen take the abuse.

On many pick-up teams, it's my "control" characters that often take a LOT of fire, but even a purple-constructed and exemplared character is likely staring at a death-by-debuff in a Positron 1 or (more likely) 2 TF if teammates are casually aggroing multiple groups.

 

I am not doing this without an eye towards the number of things remaining in the existing spawn and the group's control ability. I know full well on my brutes (played a lot of them) the limits of their control.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Erratic1

[SteelRat70]

14 minutes ago, Snarky said:

You are kidding right?   I been  running a Posi1  since it came out.  I am on a Corruptor staying with the team debuffing/blasting/healing. People are pulling mobs from all over the city hall map.  Team is running off in three different directions.  People jump up to the steps and trigger the ambush while the rest of the team is dealing with half maps agro.  Team splits inside city hall going in different directions.   But i need to look at what power choices I made in the build….  Stop drinking in the morning.  It’s bad for you m’kay?

 

Nope.  Before you start complaining about other people play, think how you might be able to improve.  You're not infallible.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, SteelRat70 said:

 

Nope.  Before you start complaining about other people play, think how you might be able to improve.  You're not infallible.

I had specific complaints about people acting like morons.  But you are right, I can improve.  2023, time to PUG less lololololol 😂 

[Seed22]

15 hours ago, biostem said:

Way to miss the point.  Saying something like "hey, if you cast clear mind on that other defender, they could've used their buffs/heals/debuffs to prevent that team wipe" is not nearly the same as "having all the answers", and ignoring powers you do have, (remember, we're not talking about builds here, we're talking about people not using powers they already have), is something that can be easily remedied.  Forgetting or neglecting to use powers that are already part of your build is not "a different playstyle".  Why do people keep commenting like this?  I am NOT talking about builds being bad or good.  I am talking about people not using stuff they already have at their disposal...

Much appreciate the clarity.

 

I mean, I still am right, but now I gotta explain it from a different angle to explain to you why.

 

 

If it's not in their playstyle(hang with me here I agree why wouldn't they use their tools but...well just hang with me.) They won't use it. Period. Playstyle IS NOT JUST POWER SELECTION.

 

I didn't think I'd need to specify that but I guess I do. Anyway! Yeah, people's playstyle really boils  down to a bit of nuance that for the sake of time is summed up to be the ACTUAL powers you use consistently in any given combat situation.

 

Think of playstyle like a macro, a set of instructions you follow in any given situation (mostly). May not always be good, or I guess what you think of good.

 

It's not that they're forgetting to use it, they just...don't have it built into their playstyle(see the def of playstyle I used, yours may vary but not to be rude I don't really care.)

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Seed22

[SteelRat70]

38 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I had specific complaints about people acting like morons.  But you are right, I can improve.  2023, time to PUG less lololololol 😂 

 

That honestly sounds like the best way forward for everyone concerned.

Well done..  You've made real progress today.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

A word of caution: This is an observed dangerous behavior (Brutes, or anyone else really, relying on proximity or auras): waking up multiple spawns to "speed up" (especially low level) missions. The caution is this: we may be playing with mates that have AoE which will grab the spawns' aggro while you are hopping about.

 

This shouldn't be a problem if it's a Brute or Tanker doing it.  Some Scrappers also have taunt auras (not to be confused with damage auras).   Herding with taunt effects is relatively safe and a stray AoE from the team shouldn't disrupt that.  Where it can go wrong is when the herder returns to the existing battle with their herd.  If they leap right into the middle of the ongoing battle, their taunt aura might collect some aggro and cause others in their incoming herd to be bumped off their aggro list (thanks to recent innovations in threat list re-evaluation by the Homecoming staff).

 

So it's best to herd close to the existing fight, but not necessarily to drag it over the fight entirely.  And it's good to keep running through or tossing out taunts to your herd to keep them interested in you.  But if done correctly, it can definitely speed things up, especially if done with a Tanker that wouldn't otherwise add as much to the stationary fight's offense as most other ATs.

 

2 hours ago, tidge said:

On many pick-up teams, it's my "control" characters that often take a LOT of fire

 

The big aggro magnet that control types have is the T2 AoE immob.  Even when my Tanker is aggroing everything they touch, it's sometimes difficult to grab aggro faster than a controller with a 30ft AoE immob on an 8-second timer can. And then it's even harder to keep everything aggroed when spread out over that large an area instead of huddled into the radioactive warmth of my aggro fields.

 

I either hustle my ass around aggroing each clump of immobilized enemies in turn or.. I don't.  Depends how I'm feeling about Controllers that day. 🤬

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

Think of playstyle like a macro, a set of instructions you follow in any given situation (mostly). May not always be good, or I guess what you think of good.

 

What I don't think of it as is an inalienable right... on a team.   I get where people are coming from when they say they have a right to play this game their way.  What they don't seem to get is MY point that that only extends up to the point where your playstyle is affecting MY play.  i.e. TEAMS.

 

When you join a team, you are asking (some here seem to be demanding) that they accept you no matter how you play.   And I just don't see where they get that from.  If it's YOUR team that you formed and are leading?  Great.  But nobody else is obligated to deal with your every playstyle quirk.    If you are playing a buffless Defender, then you're asking the team to carry you.  No two ways about it.  And they just don't have to if they don't want to.

 

Fine if they are cool with it.  But also fine if they aren't.  You can solo or find a more casual team.

[Glacier Peak]

Being a member of a team comes with responsibility also. Teams are much more powerful together than the lone player - and as the saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility. 

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

There is a solution to having toons that do everything on a team. A solution that I would like to see more often. 

 

Run smaller teams. 

 

Same principle as a Farm with three players doing the lifting for five sitters but without the sitters. 

 

If I'm going through Dark Astoria and Night Ward content solo at +4/x8 then I'm definitely not worried about the composition of a team. This is why I try and make every build self sufficient. 

 

Yesterday I joined a farm group run by a Blaster while on my Tanker. I did one run of a weird farm on the Atlas Park map then convinced them to try my farms. The Blaster was struggling. So I made things more interesting and switched to my Blaster. It was not the most optimal way to run but it was still fast and I got to give tips to the other player on how I stay alive. Mostly via something like Caltrops or Ignite with either Sudden Acceleration or Overwhelming Force KB to KD slotted, and then drop it on yourself since capped Res on a squishy is 75%.

 

But yeah, if your build is jacked, try running with less players. There's no rule stating that teams have to be 8 players. 

Yeah I am actually pretty self sufficient on anything, including a Blaster.  A Corruptor?  Fughedaboutit!!   But when the team APPEARS to be actively trying to screw up the run it gets tougher lol

[biostem]

4 hours ago, Seed22 said:

It's not that they're forgetting to use it, they just...don't have it built into their playstyle

Then there's some sort of deficiency or some other component that's missing - remember, my premise is that the person *does* have the key powers in question.  That means that had to make the conscious decision to take said power(s).  If you chose to take a power, but also choose not to use said power, then something went wrong.  I'm not talking about spamming the power nonstop, but I'm not talking about a single oversight in using it, either. 

[biostem]

7 hours ago, SteelRat70 said:

If things start wiping, your first point of interrogation or improvement should be your own choices or power usage, not other peoples.  Chances are they'll be doing that themselves already.  It is the height of arrogance to assume that when things go wrong it's everyone elses fault and not possibly your own; or at least to discount the possibility of you making mistakes along with other people as well.

The assumption from the outset was that YOU are not in a position where your actions/intervention could have made a difference, but some other teammate's could.  If you're playing a tanker, and are surrounded by enemies already, you can't really do anything to prevent that surplus aggro from spilling over elsewhere.  You can't prevent a teammate from entering an AoE, and you can't apply a mez-protection power to an ally, (let's keep incarnates out of the discussion for now).  Let's say you were playing a forcefield defender - obviously you can't really heal allies, (aid other isn't really a full substitute), and if your teammate's keep running off, you can't do much to maintain mez protection on them.  Sure, it can be useful to look inward and consider how you can improve, but this entire thread is predicated on your teammates not utilizing powers at their disposal...

Edited January 6, 2023 by biostem

[biostem]

10 hours ago, Ghost said:

Ive never been upset enough to start investigating what others did or didn’t do.

It's not about being "upset enough" - it's about having awareness of your team composition and urging/encouraging/mentoring your teammates to leverage that to the fullest.

[SteelRat70]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

 but this entire thread is predicated on your teammates not utilizing powers at their disposal...

... and that not being the least bit of your concern.  So pipe down, unless asked for advice.  OK?

[biostem]

Just now, SteelRat70 said:

... and that not being the least bit of your concern.  So pipe down, unless asked for advice.  OK?

How about not, Scott.  When you're soloing, you do you.  When you're on a team, it's no longer about "you", and you have some obligation, no matter how minute, to contribute in a positive way, (excepting specific cases where you were give the OK to leech, go AFK, etc).

[SteelRat70]

8 hours ago, biostem said:

How about not, Scott.  When you're soloing, you do you.  When you're on a team, it's no longer about "you", and you have some obligation, no matter how minute, to contribute in a positive way, (excepting specific cases where you were give the OK to leech, go AFK, etc).

 

On that we agree.. but other team members thinking they know best about how I play my character or anyone elses but their own is rarely likely to be received well.  In that scenario it's best to keep those "why are you doing that", "why haven't you taken that power" or "why aren't you using this one" to yourself.

Let's be honest, team wipes are usually caused by poor positioning, or an errant power being fired off into a dormant group of mobs which causes unwanted aggro, especially in the 2022 version of CoH.  Not from Johnny Blogg choosing to use one power over another one.  Do you honestly think that in a team of 8 characters, the non use or over use of a single power from one of those players is going to cause that much of a problem?  Team composition rarely matters these days, let alone individual power choices.

 

So with that in mind any suggestions for improvements may well be better aimed at the team in general; "Why don't we try..." rather than to single individuals.

Edited January 7, 2023 by SteelRat70

[biostem]

16 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

other team members thinking they know best about how I play my character or anyone elses but their own is rarely likely to be received well.

And trying to reconcile that in some way is the crux of this thread.

 

16 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

In that scenario it's best to keep those "why are you doing that", "why haven't you taken that power"

Irrelevant to the topic at hand.  It's not about what people are doing, but what or why they aren't, and the question about someone *not* taking a power is also a moot point, as the scenario posed is someone having a power and not using it.

 

16 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

"why aren't you using this one"

Yes, that's the question.  Why isn't it a plausible outcome that the player not using some ability presents a learning opportunity, though?  Why is keeping any advice or insight about how using a power can result in a positive outcome verboten?

 

16 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

Let's be honest, team wipes are usually caused by poor positioning, or an errant power being fired off into a dormant group of mobs which causes unwanted aggro, especially in the 2022 version of CoH.  Not from Johnny Blogg choosing to use one power over another one.

It's not impossible that is the case, but I do not believe it's as common as you present.

 

16 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

Do you honestly think that in a team of 8 characters, the non use or over use of a single power from one of those players is going to cause that much of a problem?

Maybe not in the immediate sense, but as a possible cause of a cascade effect, certainly.  Someone gets mezzed, they can't fire off some helpful ability, which causes someone else to drop, which leads to the rest of the team getting overwhelmed.  I've seen it happen before...

 

16 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

Team composition rarely matters these days, let alone individual power choices.

I mean, if you and your teammates are basically "soloing together", then maybe.  For less optimized or maxed-out folks, it does matter.

 

16 minutes ago, SteelRat70 said:

So with that in mind any suggestions for improvements may well be better aimed at the team in general; "Why don't we try..." rather than to single individuals.

As a general rule, sure, but since what resources each player has at their disposal can vary widely, a bit of a deep-dive into what particular powers could be best leveraged and how, when, or where, is worth examining.

Edited January 7, 2023 by biostem

[Songseven]

honestly biostem, probably need to let this one go..