Were Brutes that Badly Nerfed?

[AmrasNotHere]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I'm not, Sai has just forgotten history too easily and it's not worth my time to dig up old discord posts to prove anything that plenty of people saw me do.   Keep in mind we haven't always been able to record and post videos.  I first did it in closed beta then shortly after in open beta, then live.  Then I moved on. 

 

Also not worth derailing this further for a point that has nothing to do with Brutes/Tankers ultimately. 

 

It's not worth your time to bring up proof, yet you heckle everyone else for proof. Very interesting logic you got goin on there. Maybe you should bow out of the topic if you don't have time? 

Or just reference the source: trust me bro

and be done with it so we can dismiss whatever else you're about to post lol

[Indystruck]

1 hour ago, Videra said:

Also, Infinitum, I love you, but stop doing the 'Source: Trust Me Bro' nonsense.

 

 

[Indystruck]

duplicated post lol.

Edited April 3 by Indystruck
duplicate post.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, AmrasNotHere said:

 

It's not worth your time to bring up proof, yet you heckle everyone else for proof. Very interesting logic you got goin on there. Maybe you should bow out of the topic if you don't have time? 

Or just reference the source: trust me bro

and be done with it so we can dismiss whatever else you're about to post lol

You aren't even on topic anymore.  None of this is. 

 

Secondly - I didn't heckle or ask for proof because I already know I'm right.   I really don't care if your merry band believes me or not 😉

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

duplicated post lol.

It's OK to duplicate En Vogue. Saw them in concert a few years ago on the mixtape tour with New Kids. It was an awesome show. 

[GM Tock]

Failing to see what 90's R&B legends have to do with City of Heroes. 😄

 

And now it's time for a breakdown.  Let's get back on topic.

[Wavicle]

Brutes were nerfed because they were too good relative to Other ATs, not just Tankers or Scrappers.

 

They don’t really need a buff, but that Fury IO could be looked at. Maybe instead of a flat gain it could be additional Fury gained on every attack for the next 10 seconds?

 

However, if the ultimate solution was to reduce Tanker AoE Damage while simultaneously increasing Brute Armor Base values to between Scrappers and Tankers for all attributes, not just HP, I wouldn’t complain.

Edited April 3 by Wavicle

[Infinitum]

52 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

However, if the ultimate solution was to reduce Tanker AoE Damage while simultaneously increasing Brute Armor Base values to between Scrappers and Tankers for all attributes, not just HP, I wouldn’t complain.

That would probably be the most fair, but I wish there were a way to do that while making the Brute more Brute and less like a tanker knockoff - maybe make the Brute ATO give increased aoe dmg and target caps on a proc type basis similar to how the tanker ATO gives resistance values. 

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Brutes were nerfed because they were too good relative to Other ATs, not just Tankers or Scrappers.

 

Objectively untrue, one might make the case for scrappers without the ATO, but we had that when the nerf went out.

 

On such weak grounds, blasters, defenders and corruptors would have been hit well before brutes.

 

Brutes were the best tank by default because tankers were much worse off, but it didn't take much to change the dynamic.

Edited April 4 by ScarySai

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

 

Objectively untrue, one might make the case for scrappers without the ATO, but we had that when the nerf went out.

 

On such weak grounds, blasters, defenders and corruptors would have been hit well before brutes.

 

Brutes were the best tank by default because tankers were much worse off, but it didn't take much to change the dynamic.

It was proven that certain brute combos were out damaging scrappers and blasters even with none of the risks those two faced. 

 

That's why Brutes were nerfed. 

[Erratic1]

29 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It was proven that certain brute combos were out damaging scrappers and blasters even with none of the risks those two faced. 

 

That's why Brutes were nerfed. 

 

And now that we have plenty of Tanker combos out damaging Brutes while also being tougher...well, clearly that is only right and proper.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

And now that we have plenty of Tanker combos out damaging Brutes while also being tougher...well, clearly that is only right and proper.

Plenty is a stretch - it's mainly edge cases loaded with procs.

 

Its not as bad as it's being portrayed, but it is an issue. 

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Plenty is a stretch - it's mainly edge cases loaded with procs.

 

Its not as bad as it's being portrayed, but it is an issue. 

 

Is that edge bigger than the alignment of planets and stars required for "certain Brute combinations" to outdo  Blasters and Scrappers?

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Is that edge bigger than the alignment of planets and stars required for "certain Brute combinations" to outdo  Blasters and Scrappers?

Well ask yourself the question - what originated the nerf for Brutes? - wasn't because they were average. 

 

Some dataset provided illustrated what an outlier they were - and just like TW was brought in line, brutes were also- was it too much? 

 

That among other things is why we need to test a variety of data points against similar tanker builds in a controlled mission set like the Brutal Mission Simulator.  But I wouldn't expect the edge case they used to be to ever come back. 

 

If anything it's more likely to have tankers nerfed slightly to help Brutes fit better and bring the tanker edge cases down. 

 

I would genuinely like to see the Brute ATO changed to fit the AT better and Fury made to be 100% of capacity. 

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

If anything it's more likely to have tankers nerfed slightly to help Brutes fit better and bring the tanker edge cases down. 

 

I would genuinely like to see the Brute ATO changed to fit the AT better and Fury made to be 100% of capacity. 

 

I think I would prefer at this point something off the Damage/Survivability axis. I doubt any change to damage or survivability has much room to thread the needle of player satisfaction and moreover, playing around with another AT is how this ball of wax got rolling in the first place. Change brutes in a way that does not directly change their damage/survivability compared to Scrappers/Stalkers/Tankers.

 

Tie it to one-tenth their Fury value as a percent chance for some effect (or amplification of an effect of the attack) when dealing single-target damage. But what? I have no idea (because its time to be unconscious).

[Hjarki]

7 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

I think I would prefer at this point something off the Damage/Survivability axis.

To some extent, content becomes an issue here.

 

A lot of people are focused on Pylon/Trapdoor. This is almost purely a dps race and there's only so much you can on that single vector.

 

Some people are focused on actual gameplay (where more issues arise), but the lack of true 'raid' content means that it's very difficult to have multi-vectored challenges. In the most challenging content, survivability tends to be more important than dps but you don't really see custom teams for this purpose.

 

I think the best you can really hope for is making certain sets favor certain AT. However, at the current moment, you really only have "best on a Tanker", "best on a Stalker" and "it doesn't really matter".

[ScarySai]

10 hours ago, Infinitum said:

It was proven that certain brute combos were out damaging scrappers and blasters even with none of the risks those two faced. 

 

That's why Brutes were nerfed. 

 

Source: trust me bro.

 

Even fire brutes at their peak weren't outdamaging scrappers with the ato, and any given decent blaster.

Edited April 4 by ScarySai

[Pleonast]

8 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Tie it to one-tenth their Fury value as a percent chance for some effect (or amplification of an effect of the attack) when dealing single-target damage. But what? 

This looks like a good idea. Like a “side crit”.  Double the magnitude of any side effect of the attack. Debuff, dot, etc. 

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

... and moreover, playing around with another AT is how this ball of wax got rolling in the first place.

 

Tie it to one-tenth their Fury value as a percent chance for some effect (or amplification of an effect of the attack) when dealing single-target damage. But what? I have no idea (because its time to be unconscious).

 

Buffing Tankers was not a swing of the nerf bat at Brutes.

 

I agree that Fury, which is the defining characteristic of Brutes, is almost certainly where any changes could be made.

 

I don't know that some players will be satisfied with anything less than solo Brutes clearing maps faster than any other AT, no matter how that is achieved.

 

[laudwic]

On 1/9/2023 at 9:27 PM, Gobbledigook said:

Brutes are still very good and some deemed them overpowered pre nerf. Some did not like the nerf.

Tankers got a needed buff, which some did not like also. Was it too much? maybe with the extra AoE lol.

 

If you want to tank more then roll a Tanker and if you want better damage then roll a Brute but the Tankers extra AoE does help it clear mobs fast but a Brute will win on a single target.

 

It's best to make your own judgement.

 

The even shorter version:

 

Tanker if you predominately team

Brute if you predominately solo.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

 

Source: trust me bro.

 

Even fire brutes at their peak weren't outdamaging scrappers with the ato, and any given decent blaster.

They were nerfed. There were valid reasons.  

 

You can go digging back through 2019 if you want to - but that's one of the reasons brutes lost their god tier.  It wasn't just for the heck of it.

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, tidge said:

I don't know that some players will be satisfied with anything less than solo Brutes clearing maps faster than any other AT, no matter how that is achieved.

This is the hurdle that will be hardest to overcome with this discussion. 

 

Especially when people who ran that way in the past refuse to admit it was a thing - when everyone else knows it was a thing. 

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

Buffing Tankers was not a swing of the nerf bat at Brutes.

 

I agree that Fury, which is the defining characteristic of Brutes, is almost certainly where any changes could be made.

 

I don't know that some players will be satisfied with anything less than solo Brutes clearing maps faster than any other AT, no matter how that is achieved.

 

False Equivalence.  Wanting Brutes to not be completely outclassed and not worth playing =/= wanting Brutes to solo clear faster than any other AT.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Buffing Tankers was not a swing of the nerf bat at Brutes.

 

I did not say or suggest it was. The discussion at that point was about how Brute damage caps were nerfed in regards to Blasters/Scrapers.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, laudwic said:

 

The even shorter version:

 

Tanker if you predominately team

Brute if you predominately solo.

 

Correction: Brutes if you solo...only solo targets and not groups (majority of content).