Commentary on Regen

[BrandX]

52 minutes ago, Troo said:

I think the first post here is good stuff..

 

Then as I read some responses I start to wonder. Do some folks really play it, or did they just give it a whirl and then go back to their preferred power set.

 

I have taken /regens through much of the game including bench mark and higher difficulty content. It can totally get the job done, it just does so a little differently. There is some anticipation and timing that comes into play which, to me, makes it more interesting and fun.

 

It is nice to have a power set or two without chasing defense.

 

 

Well, I've played it to 50 a couple of times and while I can have fun with lots of the defense sets, I can't say I've had that one OMG fave to really go back to.  😛  In fact, it's Regen I love for concept so much!  It's the set I always go to mids because I hope I can do something with it and go "YAY!  I cracked the code!"

 

Of course, I don't claim to be the best, so it hasn't happened yet, but I feel it's weaker than the others when IOs get involved.  I've leveled it on Brute and Scrapper and my first 50 back on live was Claws/Regen (back when we had XP debt and people took a year or two to get to 50 🙂 )

 

I think some of the small changes could work without making it OP defensively compared to the others tho.  

 

However, I like some of the suggested changes

 

Fast Healing: 100% Regen and -Regen Resist increased doesn't sound bad.

 

Reconstruction: Give it a HoT component...I like it...keeps the regen feeling and honestly, not sure a small HoT would OP it either.

 

Quick Recovery: Good as is to me, but I get why some may think a good place for little buffs.

 

Dull Pain: Another one I'm fine with myself.

 

Integration: 100% be able to enhance it's heal component.

 

Resilience: Little more Resist and add in Slow Resist.  HOWEVER...if people really wanted to limit that just a bit...Keep E/N Resist as is, Increase S/L/F/C/T/P Resist.  Always feel in comics the regen types tend to resist these effects a little more than normal.

 

Instant Healing: Honestly, I'd like it as a Toggle but tacking a Preventive Level Absorb Proc onto it wouldn't be bad.

 

Revive: Never had a problem with it, other than I feel I'm not invulnerable for 15 seconds all the time.  It doesn't have WP's added DMG and ACC for reviving, but it doesn't have the small crash either.  Also, it's a power I can save for lvl 49 (I love this power for concept)

 

Moment of Glory: Still feel it needs another 15 seconds.  It's already the shortest living survival T9.  I feel it needs more time, maybe 5 or 10 seconds would be enough.  *shrug*

 

Maybe it doesn't need all the changes and can do one or a few?

 

 

I will say, I don't chase the defense as much anymore when making builds, as I've come to feel without DDR, that crumbles fast...less so on range.  Either way, I'm sure at some point, I'll do Regen again...until then, I'll keep maining Electric Armor Scrapper instead of the Regen.

[MirrorDarkly]

6 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Yeah this is tricky because while Regen is at the bottom, putting them up against Rad and Bio isn't really illustrative because they're both top tier sets that outclass every set put against them.

 

Which makes sense if you take into account you were supposed to buy them from the Paragon Market (supposed to, since Rad wasn't released before shutdown).

 

It's probably more fair match Regen up against Invul, or even Fiery Aura, since these are sets that have been around since i0; Invul in particular sharing in common it's lack of offensive traits with Regen (short the stacking ToHit from Invincibility). 

 

I think that is very illustrative of Regeneration being balanced for a game that does not exist anymore. Whatever their pay to win origins both are now simply sets anyone can pick at charter creation and as noted several posts backs almost direct competitors of Regeneration.

 

It's much harder to directly compare say, Fast Healing to Resist Physical Damage or Agile because they do such different things.  That being said it is very hard for me to imagine anyone skipping either of those powers without it making a very large impact of their effectiveness, where as there are many pool powers that will likely offer more survivability to a character than Fast Healing.  

[Captain Fabulous]

7 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Yeah this is tricky because while Regen is at the bottom, putting them up against Rad and Bio isn't really illustrative because they're both top tier sets that outclass every set put against them.

 

Which makes sense if you take into account you were supposed to buy them from the Paragon Market (supposed to, since Rad wasn't released before shutdown).

 

It's probably more fair match Regen up against Invul, or even Fiery Aura, since these are sets that have been around since i0; Invul in particular sharing in common it's lack of offensive traits with Regen (short the stacking ToHit from Invincibility). 

This is the important bit. The older sets, especially the i0 sets, really don't hold up when compared to the later sets, especially the paid ones. Regen, Invul, Dark, FA, SR -- they're all fairly bland when compared to sets like Bio, Rad, and Shield (tho I think Invul is probably the most versatile and nuanced of the i0 bunch). The Homecoming devs have put a LOT of love into reworking Blasters; not so much into the melee sets. This is not to say the early sets are bad per se, they just lack the multi-layered approach and diversity that newer sets get. Like I said earlier, why was absorb never added to Regen? That seems like a no-brainer. Why doesn't Regen have a significant amount of -regen resistance, especially considering how prevalent it is late-game? Again, a no-brainer. Why only the most basic status/debuff resists where newer sets get far more? As the game evolved and critters were made more versatile newer sets were given a more broad range of protections while older sets were mostly forgotten. Or like Regen, nerfed into oblivion.

Regen will always have some level of a disadvantage because it's a reactive set, unlike defense and resists sets that are proactive. But that's just the nature of the beast. We know that stacking multiple types of damage mitigation is the most effective way to build, and Regen is no exception. It doesn't need to be rebuilt from the ground up. It doesn't need to be a Willpower, Bio, or Rad clone. It just needs a facelift, adding to it some of the features newer sets have gotten. Add more debuff resistances to various powers and a small bump to Resilient's resists. Add +HP and absorb. Make Instant Healing a toggle again and turn it into a scaling HoT instead of just more +regen (the lower your HP the more it heals per tick). Lower the recharge on MoG and/or make it last longer. Give me a reason to take Revive, possibly make it more like the Sentinel version. 

 

7 hours ago, Troo said:

It is nice to have a power set or two without chasing defense.

While I don't think you necessarily have to chase defense, you do need to chase something, even if it's just +recharge so you can take better advantage of the the really good powers in the set that have obscene cooldowns. All this talk of Regen has me thinking of creative ways to build out my Claws/Regen Scrapper, and I have some interesting ideas using the Presence Pool instead of going with Tough and Weave.

[SeraphimKensai]

I'm far from the Regen expert that I was in the days of Perma MoG and soloing hammi mitos. 

 

A lot of people agree that Regen could use some work although hardly anyone agrees how.

 

If I could redesign Regen....

• I'd revert instant healing to a toggle l
• Move brutes taunt aura from integration over to the toggle instant healing.
• I'd ditch quick recovery for a new auto power named Resolve. Resolve would add scaling regeneration values the lower your health got similar to how SR gets resistance the more missing health it has. At it's most effective it would put out Regen values similar to a WP tank's RTTC while fully saturated. Resolve would also add a 50% resistance to regen and recovery debuffs.
• Fast Healing would be similar to how it is but have a built-in 3.5 ppm proc to have double Regen ticks for 10 seconds. It also gains a 30% resistance to slows.
• Reconstruction works as usual with the addition of potentially stacking 10% resistance to Regen debuffs that last 60 seconds.
• Revive can be used when not dead, it fully heals the player and gives them an absorb shield of 33% of their max HP. The power no longer benefits from recharge reduction.

Other powers would function in the same way that they currently do.

[Captain Fabulous]

14 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

A lot of people agree that Regen could use some work although hardly anyone agrees how.

 

I think a lot of us are on the same page. TBH. I'm seeing a lot of the same things repeated over and over -- more debuff resistances, absorb, IH back to a toggle, scaling heals, etc.

[SeraphimKensai]

43 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I think a lot of us are on the same page. TBH. I'm seeing a lot of the same things repeated over and over -- more debuff resistances, absorb, IH back to a toggle, scaling heals, etc.

Sure, there's a few different camps preaching similar changes, but I guess I was more thinking of the individual values and such. I've had several discord conversations about Regen over the years and over more than one bottle of liquor. 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

2 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Sure, there's a few different camps preaching similar changes, but I guess I was more thinking of the individual values and such. I've had several discord conversations about Regen over the years and over more than one bottle of liquor. 

 

It's difficult to come to agreements on specifics because everything is so variable and interdependent. Like, if you were going to add just absorb you might use a larger amount, whereas if you were making multiple changes that amount might be too much. And then you get down to where to put things. Obviously you don't want to stack them all on one power, but then it becomes a design decision as to what makes sense where. I dare say revamping a powerset in many ways is more difficult than creating a new one. It's a lot of work, a lot of testing, and probably a fair amount of alcohol too.

[SeraphimKensai]

23 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I dare say revamping a powerset in many ways is more difficult than creating a new one. It's a lot of work, a lot of testing, and probably a fair amount of alcohol too.

If you ever decide to look at the actual game code, yes adding new seems easier than changing something else and breaking other things while making your changes. And yes it requires a fair amount of alcohol, why else do you think we all had to pay $12-15 bucks a month, the OG devs needed liquid encouragement in addition to paying for their bills like Manticore's 2004 shiny blue Miata.

[biostem]

I wonder if something like radiation armor's gamma boost could be implemented into fast healing - the lower your health, the greater the +regen bonus it provides.  Additionally, what if the lower your health, the more quickly instant healing becomes available...

[Captain Fabulous]

1 minute ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If you ever decide to look at the actual game code, yes adding new seems easier than changing something else and breaking other things while making your changes. And yes it requires a fair amount of alcohol, why else do you think we all had to pay $12-15 bucks a month, the OG devs needed liquid encouragement in addition to paying for their bills like Manticore's 2004 shiny blue Miata.

To be fair, powerset changes are all done at the database level, so you don't mess with any of the underlying code unless you want to add some kind of new mechanic. You don't need to worry about breaking shit.

The real challenge in updating a powerset is not making it into something it was never meant to be, e.g., you want Regen to be a better Regen, not turn it into a Willpower knockoff.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 minute ago, Captain Fabulous said:

To be fair, powerset changes are all done at the database level, so you don't mess with any of the underlying code unless you want to add some kind of new mechanic. You don't need to worry about breaking shit.

Don't all new powersets and pretty much any that get adjusted have some new mechanic to make them unique? Over the last few years that seems to be the modus operandi around here.

 

[aethereal]

2 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Don't all new powersets and pretty much any that get adjusted have some new mechanic to make them unique? Over the last few years that seems to be the modus operandi around here.

 

@Captain Fabulous is right.  Almost all powers changes/additions can be done at the DB level without requiring any new code.

 

I mean, there have been powers code additions in the HC era -- the new knock system, allowing multiple effects grouped together in an effect group, etc.  And those have enabled some new powers (like the "reverse repel" that we've recently seen in for example Axe Cyclone).

 

But most powerset creations/revamps don't do any code changes.

[Captain Fabulous]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

I wonder if something like radiation armor's gamma boost could be implemented into fast healing - the lower your health, the greater the +regen bonus it provides.  Additionally, what if the lower your health, the more quickly instant healing becomes available...

I really like the idea of a scaling mechanic added somewhere (I suggested IH), but I'd like to see it be something other than just more +regen for 2 reasons: 1.) the set already has a ton of +regen and there really should be more diversity, and 2.) regen is easily debuffed, even with resistance. I like the idea of a scaling HoT because it would be completely separate from regeneration and would be immune to debuffs (having a brain fart ATM, but I don't think there is a healing debuff in the game; someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I like the idea of a scaling HoT

That would be a nice way of diversifying what regen has to offer, while keeping with the theme of the set...

[MirrorDarkly]

6 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I really like the idea of a scaling mechanic added somewhere (I suggested IH), but I'd like to see it be something other than just more +regen for 2 reasons: 1.) the set already has a ton of +regen and there really should be more diversity, and 2.) regen is easily debuffed, even with resistance. I like the idea of a scaling HoT because it would be completely separate from regeneration and would be immune to debuffs (having a brain fart ATM, but I don't think there is a healing debuff in the game; someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

There are a few powers that debuff healing.

 

For example:

Acid Arrow

Benumb

 

I'm not sure how common it is for enemies to have them. 

 

Edit: Those examples work in different ways interestingly enough.  Acid Arrow reduces the healing the target receives, Benumb reduces the healing the target does.  Both would reduce self healing I think.

Edited January 25, 2023 by MirrorDarkly

[Captain Fabulous]

9 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Don't all new powersets and pretty much any that get adjusted have some new mechanic to make them unique? Over the last few years that seems to be the modus operandi around here.

 

Things like stacking buffs and combos are in themselves an additional mechanic, yes. Absorption too. But once the core functionality is coded into the game and available in the database adding them to powersets is a pretty easy affair and doesn't require any additional coding. You're just replicating and tweaking as needed.

[Gobbledigook]

Maybe if they combined quick recovery/Fast healing into one power called Heightened metabolism or something and add some heal debuf resistance. That would free a power for something else. Increase the regen/recovery a little also so it is not all about IH.

 

Add a +damage or+recharge of some sort with that extra power slot maybe.

 

Resilience damage resistance could increase as health is lowered, a bit like SR.

 

Change MoG to something that lasts longer. Maybe an absorb with some +recharge and defence/resistance. An Oh Crap button that protects and speeds up heal cooldowns.

 

I think the regeneration should be spread out a little more. Then Instant Healing could remain a cooldown power that won't be as big of a deal when it is not active. Otherwise Toggle IH.

 

Less clicky would be good also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

11 minutes ago, MirrorDarkly said:

 

There are a few powers that debuff healing.

 

For example:

Acid Arrow

Benumb

 

I'm not sure how common it is for enemies to have them. 

 

Edit: Those examples work in different ways interestingly enough.  Acid Arrow reduces the healing the target receives, Benumb reduces the healing the target does.  Both would reduce self healing I think.

Huh, well there ya go. The attribute is "heal dmg". Doesn't look like there's any way to search for that attribute to see which powers have it. I would be interested to find out tho.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Add a +damage or+recharge of some sort with that extra power slot maybe.

I don't think +dmg makes sense, but it would be interesting if there was some mechanism by where incoming damage draws from your end pool instead, (at some conversion ratio, like 5-10 HP per 1 end consumed in this way).  It could quickly deplete your end bar, but would kind of work as you getting exhausted by having to regen so much or something similar...

Edited January 25, 2023 by biostem

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I don't think +dmg makes sense, but it would be interesting if there was some mechanism by where incoming damage draws from your end pool instead, (at some conversion ratio, like 5-10 HP per 1 end consumed in this way).  It could quickly deplete your end bar, but would kind of work as you getting exhausted by having to regen so much or something similar...

 

I don't think that's possible with current powers tech.

 

You could however do one of these things:

 

1.  Put a toggle together with very high regen (or indeed repeated healing if regen wasn't able to get fast enough for your taste) but which had a high endurance cost and a recovery debuff.

 

2.  A powerful, low-or-no-recharge-time heal with a quick animation that had a substantial endurance cost and put a stacking recovery debuff on you.

 

In both cases you'd get something similar to what you're imagining -- very powerful damage mitigation that you can't just use all the time because it ruins your endurance.

 

All that said, I'm not sure that something like that would actually be something that people want to play?  I think that having limited power use because of endurance issues is generally frustrating rather than tactically interesting, because being out of endurance is so painful in CoH.

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 hours ago, MirrorDarkly said:

I think that is very illustrative of Regeneration being balanced for a game that does not exist anymore.

 

Basically my point. 

 

Edit:

Of course you completely ignored my point of comparing anything to Rad or Bio will result in the former being assessed as "less than."

 

Dark, WP, Shield. All good sets.

 

Noone would say these outperform Rad or Bio. They dont. Those sets absolutely kill on every AT they are found on.

 

So put Regen up against WP and you've got a more realistic framing. For how much work Regen needs to be competitive for choice.

 

Again. Caveat this is for most players and not the Regen diehards. I like Regen. It's fun. It doesn't have absorbs and offensive clicks so it's at the bottom of the pile.

Edited January 25, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot

[MirrorDarkly]

59 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Basically my point. 

 

Edit:

Of course you completely ignored my point of comparing anything to Rad or Bio will result in the former being assessed as "less than."

 

Dark, WP, Shield. All good sets.

 

Noone would say these outperform Rad or Bio. They dont. Those sets absolutely kill on every AT they are found on.

 

So put Regen up against WP and you've got a more realistic framing. For how much work Regen needs to be competitive for choice.

 

Again. Caveat this is for most players and not the Regen diehards. I like Regen. It's fun. It doesn't have absorbs and offensive clicks so it's at the bottom of the pile.

 

I don't feel like I ignored your point. In that post I tried to compare them to two other issue 0 passive T1/2 powers, one from Invul and one from SR.  Again I feel like they underperform but it's much harder to directly quantify by how much.

[twozerofoxtrot]

12 minutes ago, MirrorDarkly said:

I don't feel like I ignored your point. In that post I tried to compare them to two other issue 0 passive T1/2 powers, one from Invul and one from SR.

 

That's fair, I guess the rub is if you're trying to find direct analogs that are T1/2 Auto Powers with a Regen component then all you've got is Rad or Bio which are poor matches. The only other general comparison is with WP that is the exact same power but at T3.

 

Bottom Line my response to your original, like Rudra's, calls into question comparing anything again the top performers versus the middle of the performance bell curve.

 

If you want to point to Bio and cry foul, then you're going to end up with accelerated power creep.

[Troo]

  Common or general agreement from other discussions.

• Regeneration could use some debuff resistance
  • Recharge. This is one of the sets's achilles heal.
  • Regen. Really this seems like a no brainer since it is Regeneration. Should be SR DDR level.
  • DDR? nah, leave the chasing defense trap.
• MoG has an animation which is practically 20% of the power duration.. That's a bit punitive.
  • Shorten the animation/cast time
  • Extend the duration (just pick one or the other)
• **MoG has a nice +Recovery which may be under appreciated.
• Front-loading heals would be nice. Or at least shorten the animation-time-before-effect.

Take a couple of the these minor tweaks and see where we are. If that's the nudge it needs we haven't 'reworked' anything and have stayed troo to what is a popular set.

 

Regeneration is never going to be Invulnerability. That said, Regeneration should consistently have better regen than Bio or others. If it did, this wouldn't be a topic.

 

 

There are always interesting out of the box ideas that pop up in Regeneration threads. Unfortunately, many would require a rework to implement. With a rework then comes tradeoffs from the existing set... It's rarely just plus plus plus, there are usually some minuses.

If folks want an Absorb damage power set, it could be easier and less disruptive to just create a new power set. I'd support that.

 

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

power set, it could be easier and less disruptive to just create a new power set.

That's the problem though that the original postee mentions - previous devs moving to make other powersets which do what Regeneration does, but better.