Commentary on Regen

[Troo]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

previous devs moving to make other powersets which do what Regeneration does, but better.

 

..and that's a problem because?

 

Lots of people happily play Regeneration in it's current state. Some have asked for a couple QoL tweaks.

I like it because it is different. I wouldn't want to see it become same same with other sets.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

..and that's a problem because?

 

Lots of people happily play Regeneration in it's current state. Some have asked for a couple QoL tweaks.

I like it because it is different. I wouldn't want to see it become same same with other sets.

And lots of people make threads about not being happy with the current state of Regeneration. A small minority of individuals claim the set doesn't need changed. It's a discussion, this is how it works. 

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

A small minority of individuals claim the set doesn't need changed.

 

..there I fixed your statement to correctly reflect the number of people who post on the forum as compared to the number of characters created using regen.

 

Your statement is subjective and anecdotal at best. My correction is as well. Making shit up is not a discussion. You've made a strawman to attack rather than provide any empirical evidence.

 

Lots of folks have asked to have Hami Origin enhancements be convertible. A small minority has said it is not likely due to system limitations. (regardless folks still would really like to convert them)

 

How popular is Regeneration?

• Per the Flavor of the Month thread
  • 8th most popular on Brutes
  • 1st among Scrappers
  • 1st on Sentinels
  • 6th favorite among Stalkers

 

• Per the Homecoming Statistics thread
  • 8th most popular on Brutes
  • 2nd among Scrappers (throw out even 15% of TW/Bio and regen is 1st)
  • 1st on Sentinels
  • 6th favorite among Stalkers

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Troo

[Glacier Peak]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

Your statement is subjective and anecdotal at best. My correction is as well. Making shit up is not a discussion. You've made a strawman to attack rather than provide any empirical evidence.

 

When you use the Search Function, and just look for Regen in the title of the thread, and its just in the Suggestion and Feedback subforum and you get over twenty threads alone. Troo you have no empirical evidence whatsoever. You are pulling numbers from two years ago and trying to make the claim they are accurate? LOL

 

Attack? This is a discussion, as I have said already, quit taking things personal.

😭

 

[Troo]

What are you going on about?

The first link you've provided, sure it's regen related-ish, but it's a topic suggesting a new powerset.

You are simply doubling down on your strawman while adding little but clutter to this discussion.

 

Let's break down your accusation below:

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Troo you have no empirical evidence whatsoever. You are pulling numbers from two years ago and trying to make the claim they are accurate? LOL

 

Backing up the assertion that the set is popular with actual data.. that is empirical evidence. Maybe you don't understand the terminology?

(fyi - most popular pairing looked to be Katana/Regen)

Do you have some newer data points that refute the set being popular? I'd love to see new numbers but you don't have them, do you?

Accurate.. the rankings were inaccurate? That's what they were on two separate occasions. Don Quixote you are.

 

[Glacier Peak]

Apologies for the thread derail @aethereal! 

 

Commentary: an expression of opinions or offering of explanations about an event or situation.

 

So getting back to the topic, what are the problems with Regeneration? Are these problems subjective or endemic to all players? Is it situationally weaker in comparison to other sets or is the agreed upon testing methodology failing to produce conclusive findings? When players say, "this doesn't feel like the Regeneration set I remember," that is anecdotal discussion, but it still contributes to the perception of others. Is there really something wrong with it or has the game itself changed? 

 

Big questions that have so much intertwined, how to narrowly define each metric to produce results which can then be actioned upon - whether reducing power recharge or increasing regeneration per second. There is no set testing parameter, there are plenty of subjective perspectives for and against any one change to the Regeneration powerset.

 

I'd express that my opinion to the current state of the Regeneration powerset is that it was the product of its own success in the early issues of this game. It received a series of changes that made it perform differently than it used to. Once a player has had an experience like soloing Hamidon Mitos, the concept of risk versus reward seems moot. 

[lemming]

22 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'd express that my opinion to the current state of the Regeneration powerset is that it was the product of its own success in the early issues of this game. It received a series of changes that made it perform differently than it used to. Once a player has had an experience like soloing Hamidon Mitos, the concept of risk versus reward seems moot. 

Yea, I got my Regen Claws scrapper up to the either you're alive or dead phases of Regen and it was a blast.

 

It needed tuning, but I think everyone thinks it got tuned too far.   I think it got tuned to levels that didn't account for ED and never got back.

 

Really what I'd like to see if good regen & recharge debuff resist in it and instant heal to be more like the sentinel toggle.

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, lemming said:

Yea, I got my Regen Claws scrapper up to the either you're alive or dead phases of Regen and it was a blast.

 

It needed tuning, but I think everyone thinks it got tuned too far.   I think it got tuned to levels that didn't account for ED and never got back.

 

Really what I'd like to see if good regen & recharge debuff resist in it and instant heal to be more like the sentinel toggle.

That was my take when I played my Elec/Regen Sentinel up to 50. The feeling reminds me the most of that pre-ED time period, before the IH toggle to click change, etc. 

[Captain Fabulous]

34 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

So getting back to the topic, what are the problems with Regeneration?

In a nutshell, as someone said earlier, Regen is a set designed for a game that no longer exists. It was nerfed to hell in issue 5, before both ED and IOs, and hasn't changed much since.

[Darkneblade]

Wait, we are buffing regen? are we insane?

Nerf regen...


jk jk


Anyway, I would probably merge Fast Healing and Quick Recovery together and call it Vigor.

Regen and recovery increases as your health decreases. Typical, but can't think anything else.

I would remove toxic resistance from reconstruction but will replace with %x resistance to (all but psi) but smaller values (There was post somewhere about it but can't find anything now).

I would also add ''cleanse debuff'' effect to reconstruction so that you can actually hit things. There are already one example such as Inner Will (Martial Combat) from blasters. But only for debuffs.

I would also add new auto power that increases your own recharge when your hp got so low, something small like %5 (%99+ HP) to %30 (%10- HP). Numbers are probably wonky, so ignore it. Maybe call it Adrenaline?

It will probably not fix it. But it can make it bit better.



 

[Glacier Peak]

Anyone try Electric Melee/Regeneration Scrapper? I went that route via Electric Blast/Regeneration Sentinel and it was pretty awesome, however, Sentinel damage output left me unsatisfied. 

 

With the Electric Melee power set, I can see +Chance for Self Heals (around 60hp when it procs) and plenty of +Chance for Recharges across the build, which both compliment the power of Regeneration. Pretty easy to hit the HP cap on Scrappers, so then I guess picking up Hasten and/or the Medicine Pool to really bring out the big green numbers with an off-set Aid Self which gets a decent chunk of HP back and recharges quickly, then maybe snag Field Medic to improve the +Heal component of all the healing powers. 

 

Mitigation-wise, it sounds like a contender for fun to me; however, that is just theory crafting.

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Anyone try Electric Melee/Regeneration Scrapper? I went that route via Electric Blast/Regeneration Sentinel and it was pretty awesome, however, Sentinel damage output left me unsatisfied. 

 

I did way back on Live, in a very different environment from today.  I abandoned the character because it felt too fragile.  But this was in an environment where I had much greater difficulty affording IOs.

 

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

 

With the Electric Melee power set, I can see +Chance for Self Heals (around 60hp when it procs) and plenty of +Chance for Recharges across the build, which both compliment the power of Regeneration. Pretty easy to hit the HP cap on Scrappers, so then I guess picking up Hasten and/or the Medicine Pool to really bring out the big green numbers with an off-set Aid Self which gets a decent chunk of HP back and recharges quickly, then maybe snag Field Medic to improve the +Heal component of all the healing powers. 

 

Mitigation-wise, it sounds like a contender for fun to me; however, that is just theory crafting.

 

I think the big issue with all the various thoughts about ramping up healing/regeneration through whichever strategy is that unlike resistance and defense, you don't go through an increasing-returns curve with healing/regen.  So the deal with defense/resistance is it gets harder and harder to build as you stack more and more of it (you exhaust the easy things like for example the +def/res-all unique IOs, and the powers, and you start having to go 5 or 6 deep in sets to get a bonus to two def/res types), but on the other hand you also get more and more return for that deeper investment.

 

With heal/regen, you have a similar thing of exhausting the low-hanging fruit and relatively powerful options and have to give up more and more from the rest of your build to get another heal or regen bonus, but you get linear returns instead of increasing returns.

 

And, I mean, on some level maybe that's how defense and resistance should've worked from the start, maybe the increasing returns curve there was a mistake.  It certainly deforms the meta.  But as long as that's the comparison, I think it's going to feel frustrating to, for example, sacrifice a ton of damage in your powers by slotting the +chance for self heals from Power Transfer in all your attacks.

 

(Of course, per a point I think you made earlier in the thread, we could imagine the devs tuning the linear return on healing to be so high that despite the lack of increasing returns, characters were able to reach the kind of mitigation levels that are obtainable with softcapped def/hardcapped res.  Or even more!  Nothing stops them from making Regen heal you back to full health every second!  But, I mean, in practice they aren't going to do that.  So that's why I generally focus on the beaten path, established by Willpower and Bio, that getting Regen up to being a well-performing mitigation set will involve some substantial increase in layering in either Resistance or Defense.)

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

 

I did way back on Live, in a very different environment from today.  I abandoned the character because it felt too fragile.  But this was in an environment where I had much greater difficulty affording IOs.

 

 

I think the big issue with all the various thoughts about ramping up healing/regeneration through whichever strategy is that unlike resistance and defense, you don't go through an increasing-returns curve with healing/regen.  So the deal with defense/resistance is it gets harder and harder to build as you stack more and more of it (you exhaust the easy things like for example the +def/res-all unique IOs, and the powers, and you start having to go 5 or 6 deep in sets to get a bonus to two def/res types), but on the other hand you also get more and more return for that deeper investment.

 

With heal/regen, you have a similar thing of exhausting the low-hanging fruit and relatively powerful options and have to give up more and more from the rest of your build to get another heal or regen bonus, but you get linear returns instead of increasing returns.

 

And, I mean, on some level maybe that's how defense and resistance should've worked from the start, maybe the increasing returns curve there was a mistake.  It certainly deforms the meta.  But as long as that's the comparison, I think it's going to feel frustrating to, for example, sacrifice a ton of damage in your powers by slotting the +chance for self heals from Power Transfer in all your attacks.

 

(Of course, per a point I think you made earlier in the thread, we could imagine the devs tuning the linear return on healing to be so high that despite the lack of increasing returns, characters were able to reach the kind of mitigation levels that are obtainable with softcapped def/hardcapped res.  Or even more!  Nothing stops them from making Regen heal you back to full health every second!  But, I mean, in practice they aren't going to do that.  So that's why I generally focus on the beaten path, established by Willpower and Bio, that getting Regen up to being a well-performing mitigation set will involve some substantial increase in layering in either Resistance or Defense.)

Yeah that last part I remember reading some theory crafting about in a previous thread on the Homecoming  Discord I believe. It was basically an analog or sort of dichotomous relationship where in one case, the player is unable to heal the X amount of damage received and is defeated and on the other hand the player can heal the X amount of damage received and cannot be defeated. If the Homecoming power devs tweak it too much, the player is unstoppable. What could possibly be the balance? That's the sort of difficulty with Regeneration as an "armor" secondary. 

[MirrorDarkly]

44 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah that last part I remember reading some theory crafting about in a previous thread on the Homecoming  Discord I believe. It was basically an analog or sort of dichotomous relationship where in one case, the player is unable to heal the X amount of damage received and is defeated and on the other hand the player can heal the X amount of damage received and cannot be defeated. If the Homecoming power devs tweak it too much, the player is unstoppable. What could possibly be the balance? That's the sort of difficulty with Regeneration as an "armor" secondary. 

 

In most games I would agree but in COH where every character has a base level of regeneration I'm not sure that is as relevant.

 

Or put another way a character with 90% damage resistance can take exactly the same damage per second as a character with 1000% regeneration and 0% resistance and not see their health bar move.  The only difference is the 90% resistance will also have effectively 10× the base hit points and benefit 10× as much from other heals.

 

So while it's still technically a true statement you have to get up to extremely high levels of regeneration or mix it with other forms of defense to reach the point where you actually see regen overtaking the sustainability of other sets. 

[0th Power]

What needs to be done for regen? Something!

 

My suggestions:

1. Give more -regen resist

2. Either lower recharge a bit or increase duration of instant healing or moment of glory 

3a. give stalkers some +recovery in combination with fast healing

3b. Combine the two for all AT and move the rez to the T3 and add a new power in place of the rez's old spot

4. Allow Rez to be used while alive (like sentinels)

5. Have the heals in dull pain and reconstruction fire off at the beginning of the animation, rather then towards the end. 

6. (wish list) Regeneration Tankers

Edited January 27, 2023 by 0th Power

[Troo]

21 hours ago, Darkneblade said:

I would also add ''cleanse debuff'' effect to reconstruction so that you can actually hit things. There are already one example such as Inner Will (Martial Combat) from blasters. But only for debuffs.

 

Just curious, do you find your ToHit debuffed that much?

I'm asking because I haven't really seen that and could be missing something. My regen stalker punches right through enemies who've activated MoG (60-70% of the time).

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Just curious, do you find your ToHit debuffed that much?

I'm asking because I haven't really seen that and could be missing something. My regen stalker punches right through enemies who've activated MoG (60-70% of the time).

*wonders* Then what the hell have I been doing wrong? I don't think any of my characters can hit enemies in MoG, let alone consistently....

[Troo]

Just now, Rudra said:

*wonders* Then what the hell have I been doing wrong? I don't think any of my characters can hit enemies in MoG, let alone consistently....

 

You could easily hit buildup and that alone should do it. (playing EM/RG Stalker admittedly helps with the higher base accuracy in 3 powers)

[Yomo Kimyata]

My two inf:

 

Regeneration is one of the harder sets to play at a high level, and that has less to do with the thought that it is a bad set and more to do with the fact that recent sets have been overtuned.  Radiation Armor and Bio are great, super-powerful sets (and should probably be nerfed a little).  They are, in my opinion, the top top tier and what I do NOT want is for Regen to get buffed to that level or higher.

 

A reason that Regen is actually a great defense is that many of its powers are, actually, skippable!  This means a good builder can dip deeply into pools and epics and create some real masterpieces that you may not be able to do, for example, on Bio (since I might skip one power in Bio armor).

 

Regeneration could use some more debuff resistances, simply because it has almost none.  I cannot recall ever fighting a group of enemies and getting destroyed because my regeneration was debuffed, so I don't worry too much about that.  Getting 100% slow resistance is easy enough with a strong building knowledge and a bunch of superior winter-os, but an extra 20% might be nice.  I'd actually like to see some recovery debuff resistance, and maybe a little something else for flavor.

 

Fast Healing -- Ironically a better power now that you don't have to take it at origin.  Skippable in my opinion, although I generally like to add it in as one of my last power picks.

Reconstruction -- Core part of the set.  Looking good.

Quick Recovery -- IMO absolutely skippable with all the endurance tools in this set and available through builds.  Should have some bells and whistles and debuff resistances added to make it more relevant.

Dull Pain -- Core part of the set.  Looking good.

Integration --  Core part of the set.  Looking good but I wouldn't mind making it more interesting.  Maybe take away a little of the regeneration and add a little defense, like 3-5%?

Resilience -- Core part of the set.  Looking good.

Instant Healing -- I like this power since it's a thinking person's oh shit button.  I rarely use it in play though, and skippable if you have enough other oh sit buttons.  You should be able to survive easily while it is active, so long as you activate it before you need it.  I think putting it back to a toggle would be the equivalent of making Shadow Meld a toggle -- a constant I Win button.

Revive -- Skippable, although I think giving it the Rise of the Phoenix treatment from Fiery Aura would be appropriate.

Moment of Glory -- Core part of the set.  Looking good.

 

If you want a walk-away-from-the-keyboard-and-farm build, this isn't for you.  You are definitely rewarded for build knowledge and having enough funds to equip the build.  

 

Having said that, I fully expect the HC team to buff the hell out of it, make it top tier, give it to tanks, and then sit back as people start to complain that Willpower now isn't strong enough for their AFK farmers.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Having said that, I fully expect the HC team to buff the hell out of it, make it top tier, give it to tanks, and then sit back as people start to complain that Willpower now isn't strong enough for their AFK farmers.