Knock back option suggestion

[kelika2]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

I'm in favor of SOME kind of universal kb2kd option, but this argument is silly. Those .5 seconds add up to like a minute or two at most over the course of a TF.

and how long is an acceptable time to grind your teeth or letting your blood pressure rise?

or just staying mad

also depends on the task force itself or its speed

but seriously we do need some sort of universal kb2kd option soon

 

people are also not thinking about ranged cones or melee aoes.  watching the perfect gathering of NPCs for my newest That Girl kat/fire brute go away because of knockback is ragequittable

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Scientific_Method/Independent_and_Dependent_Variables

 

Yes, for the experiment, it is well done and I did not fault @Galaxy Brain's numbers. I think it's actually remarkable and very helpful information. The problem has already been stated though that the reason EB has not been doing well is because of gameplay effects associated with the secondary manipulation powersets, and it leads to too drastic of a performance drop once considered. 

 

So when these variables do come into play because every single Blaster has access to a manipulation secondary, the results are far different. You'd see Fire Blast shoot up the ranks along with Psychic Blast because Fire Manipulation provides what those were lacking. Energy Blast actively goes against things that would help its DPS and efficiency performances. It demonstrably harms the user to utilize the effect. It is not a net-positive to use the KB on the powers. It is plain fact and there is data literally demonstrating that. If I had to just spitball a guess, it's probably about a 30-50% drop off given how anti-synergistic it is vs the 15% that's displayed. 

 

Edit: Just for humor's sake, I bet it's probably better to just not use Energy Blast as a set AT ALL and only use your secondary manipulation powerset vs mobs until you only have one boss left assuming you kept the KB effects. The only way to seriously improve that efficiency and make your primary set worthwhile to use is to KB->KD many powers and cost so many proc opportunities. It's the reason I do not recommend EB as a set. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Zeraphia

[kelika2]

39 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Don't team with cats.  Problem solved.  You're welcome.

So everyone else but the singular person causing the problem is the problem?

Think about how many dogpiles you joined in on the forums before answering

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

So everyone else but the singular person causing the problem is the problem?

 

You're backing the "whole team chases the string" hyperbole?  You're actually saying that the only person on the team who makes conscious choices, who has free will, is the person using KB?

Bitch, please.

[kelika2]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

You're backing the "whole team chases the string" hyperbole?  You're actually saying that the only person on the team who makes conscious choices, who has free will, is the person using KB?

Bitch, please.

I do not know what a hyperbole is, and I do not care.  But yes, .5 seconds sure does not sound like a lot if it was a singular person and in a insular isolated event.  but that is never the case

But in your example you said people were leaving left and right and avoiding the person causing the knockback.  You know there is a problem with the person causing the knockback.  You literally described a team collapsing

[biostem]

Meh - you knock it, you chase it.  If I am leading a team, and someone starts knocking enemies all over the place, that's on them.   If they can manage their knockback intelligently, then more power to them.  Bonus points if they can knock enemies into more advantageous positions.  If I am on someone else's team, I'll generally try to roll with whatever the team is doing, and if things become too distasteful for me, I'll politely excuse myself after the mission...

[Captain Fabulous]

45 minutes ago, biostem said:

Meh - you knock it, you chase it.  If I am leading a team, and someone starts knocking enemies all over the place, that's on them.   If they can manage their knockback intelligently, then more power to them.  Bonus points if they can knock enemies into more advantageous positions.  If I am on someone else's team, I'll generally try to roll with whatever the team is doing, and if things become too distasteful for me, I'll politely excuse myself after the mission...

This. If I'm leading and someone is using KB to the detriment of the party I will politely ask them to refrain from using those powers in that way. Sometimes people just don't understand the mechanics and explaining it to them is all that's needed. Sometimes people take great offense, cuss me out, and rage-quit. 🤷‍♂️

If I'm on someone else's team I'll finish the mission and then politely leave. This happened not that long ago; the team lead had Hurricane on the entire team and the Peacebringer kept knocking things all over the place with his AoEs (I was playing a Scrapper and it got old really quickly).

[Luminara]

53 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

But in your example you said people were leaving left and right and avoiding the person causing the knockback.  You know there is a problem with the person causing the knockback.  You literally described a team collapsing

 

I didn't say that.  I didn't insinuate that.  Not a single line of any of my posts has made any reference to teammates quitting.  You need to find the person who made that statement and argue with him/her.

[biostem]

Just now, Captain Fabulous said:

This. If I'm leading and someone is using KB to the detriment of the party I will politely ask them to refrain from using those powers in that way. Sometimes people just don't understand the mechanics and explaining it to them is all that's needed. Sometimes people take great offense, cuss me out, and rage-quit.

It's always a point of contention - to what degree does your ability to play however you want need to defer to the needs/wants of your teammates?

 

On a side note - I really like some of the energy blast animations - maybe we could get some, (animation times permitting), ported over to other sets, perhaps?

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

If you're seeing multiple teammates drop what they're doing and chase things that move, the problem isn't KB, it's that you're teamed with cats.

Explain this then.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Yes, for the experiment, it is well done and I did not fault @Galaxy Brain's numbers. I think it's actually remarkable and very helpful information. The problem has already been stated though that the reason EB has not been doing well is because of gameplay effects associated with the secondary manipulation powersets, and it leads to too drastic of a performance drop once considered. 

 

So when these variables do come into play because every single Blaster has access to a manipulation secondary, the results are far different. You'd see Fire Blast shoot up the ranks along with Psychic Blast because Fire Manipulation provides what those were lacking. Energy Blast actively goes against things that would help its DPS and efficiency performances. It demonstrably harms the user to utilize the effect. It is not a net-positive to use the KB on the powers. It is plain fact and there is data literally demonstrating that. If I had to just spitball a guess, it's probably about a 30-50% drop off given how anti-synergistic it is vs the 15% that's displayed. 

 

Edit: Just for humor's sake, I bet it's probably better to just not use Energy Blast as a set AT ALL and only use your secondary manipulation powerset vs mobs until you only have one boss left assuming you kept the KB effects. The only way to seriously improve that efficiency and make your primary set worthwhile to use is to KB->KD many powers and cost so many proc opportunities. It's the reason I do not recommend EB as a set. 

I can't decide if this is funny or aggravating. Either way, this statement is nonsense.

 

I can't be unique in this. My Energy Blast Blaster does just fine. Admittedly, my Blaster is set up as Energy Blast/Energy Manipulation. And those choices synergize well. So Energy Blast does have a secondary that works with it. I can probably throw an Energy Blast/Devices Blaster together and have those sets synergize very well too. So far, your argument about EB being bad is that it doesn't mesh well with Fire Manipulation. So I have to ask, is that maybe because certain primaries and secondaries are designed to work together rather than with everything? Players can make whatever they want. And the options for what they can make and play is rather staggering. I love it. However, it is up to the player to figure out how to make the different power sets they take for their characters work together.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

I didn't say that.  I didn't insinuate that.  Not a single line of any of my posts has made any reference to teammates quitting.  You need to find the person who made that statement and argue with him/her.

 

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

If you're seeing multiple teammates drop what they're doing and chase things that move, the problem isn't KB, it's that you're teamed with cats.

Explain this then.

Dropping what you are currently doing to chase KB'ed foes is not the same thing as quitting a team.

 

Edit: Apologies for the tardiness of this post. I was giving @kelika2 time to realize the error of that post and hide it.

Edit again: If that post does get hidden, then this one will be too. As soon as I find out.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Rudra

[Zeraphia]

5 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Explain this then.

While I am pretty sure I know where @Luminara stands in this argument, and likely disagree with the poster, I believe I understand what they're indicating. 

 

They're saying that human beings would know better than to chase mobs around constantly dropping their "efficiency" in favor of trying to relentlessly run after something they should know better that is out of reach. Therefore, the people who are not smart enough to recognize this are of an intellectually inferior species, "cats." They're not talking about teammates actually quitting the TF or recommending actions to take. They're saying people should understand what's going on in a given scenario and stop making dumb decisions. 

 

I just don't agree with the principle that other people should have to put up with other people's bullshit and slow everyone else down in favor of catering to their wants and desires, not needs. There shouldn't be a need to chase enemies around in the first place to as bad of a degree as KB causes is my opinion, and thus likely deserves a form of power auditing or workarounds that help to alleviate the issue where there are currently none. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Zeraphia

[CompSciNerd]

17 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

This. If I'm leading and someone is using KB to the detriment of the party I will politely ask them to refrain from using those powers in that way. Sometimes people just don't understand the mechanics and explaining it to them is all that's needed. Sometimes people take great offense, cuss me out, and rage-quit. 🤷‍♂️

If I'm on someone else's team I'll finish the mission and then politely leave. This happened not that long ago; the team lead had Hurricane on the entire team and the Peacebringer kept knocking things all over the place with his AoEs (I was playing a Scrapper and it got old really quickly).

 

That's the classy way to handle it Cap.

[Captain Fabulous]

13 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

While I am pretty sure I know where @Luminara stands in this argument, and likely disagree with the poster, I believe I understand what they're indicating. 

 

They're saying that human beings would know better than to chase mobs around constantly dropping their "efficiency" in favor of trying to relentlessly run after something they should know better that is out of reach. Therefore, the people who are not smart enough to recognize this are of an intellectually inferior species, "cats." They're not talking about teammates actually quitting the TF or recommending actions to take. They're saying people should understand what's going on in a given scenario and stop making dumb decisions. 

 

I just don't agree with the principle that other people should have to put up with other people's bullshit and slow everyone else down in favor of catering to their wants and desires, not needs. There shouldn't be a need to chase enemies around in the first place to as bad of a degree as KB causes is my opinion, and thus likely deserves a form of power auditing or workarounds that help to alleviate the issue where there are currently none. 

The thing is, the KB issue is a complex one. There is no one solution that's going to please everyone, or suit every situation, so I am a firm believer in there being multiple ways to manage it so people can pick and choose whichever method(s) fits their needs best. And any solution needs to be viable and accessible for everyone who plays, not just a select few at the high end of the spectrum. The current IO solution, while helpful, is an incomplete solution, with more cons than pros. I'm simply saying there should be more tools available to give us a greater degree of control, along with solutions that are not inherently punitive.

[CompSciNerd]

So here is the thing, right?  What 14 different Arch types?  Each with its own play style.  Dozens of powers, primary and secondary.  They each play differently.  You combine 2 of them.  Those play differently.  And it's not just the min/max numbers for DSPs, holds or heals, people somewhere in their mind RP a bit after they make their toon how their character would act, even if it is a little. 

 

Now take all of that... and if you’re not exclusively soloing... you have 8 people with different likes and attitudes on a team, all with a different idea on how to play: What an ideal team make up is, and how an ideal team behaves.

 

Honestly the time I have had the most fun in the game were with the strangest team make ups, and the oddest people.  All of this is what makes COH awesome.

 

So sure, for people to kind of be on the same page and to have fun certain edict has risen up.  This isn't crazy.  This happens in all communities.

 

Now it may be the case you think you're God's gift to Scrappers... And that Controller?  He is an idiot and doesn't know what he is doing...  That controller? He thinks you’re the problem and he is the best.  Has all the best techniques.  Been around forever.  What does he know?

 

Ok... Maybe you don't mesh well.  Or maybe, both of you, are not as good as you think you are...  Does it matter?  This is a game, hopefully we are having fun.  To that end…

 

I like the idea of a toggle KB->KD.  And I think it would be fun.  One of the things I like about Kelds is on a team, if one thing isn't working for you, you have a lot of options to pick from.  Modes to switch into as scenarios change, as people come and go on the team.  Because team dynamics change all the time.  Same for Pistols.  You can switch on the fly what you need.  If you team already have a lot of DPS, you set to Rad and help debuff.  Or switch to Fire if need more DPS.  This sort of flexibility I like, even if I don't think the power set is that strong otherwise.

 

The same could be true for a KB->KD toggle.  You can help the team out depending on how the play is going.  If you are a pro KB person, toggle it on KB when there is good opportunity to knock someone against a wall, or some other technique, whatever.  Toggle on KD on when the angle / scenario isn't that good, and you just want to play through.  If you are a pro KD person, use the KD and toggle KB if you have an annoying Foe you want to knock off a bridge 🙂

 

If you are trying to use KB to knock foes into the Tank or some debuff / damage field and it is working, great. 

If it isn't working this time for you or the team, sure maybe the Tank just isn't getting it... You have the option to switch it up. 

Maybe you are learning or experimenting with new / better KB techniques or maybe you just aren't as good as you think you are.  You can toggle and still help the team, and politely leave if it isn't you bag after the mish is over.   

Maybe you prefer the KD but use the KB when you are in trouble or experiment when you see the opportunity.

Covers multiple techniques.  Multiple scenarios.  Flexibility.  Fun.  Sounds awesome to me.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, CompSciNerd said:

So here is the thing, right?  What 14 different Arch types?  Each with its own play style.  Dozens of powers, primary and secondary.  They each play differently.  You combine 2 of them.  Those play differently.  And it's not just the min/max numbers for DSPs, holds or heals, people somewhere in their mind RP a bit after they make their toon how their character would act, even if it is a little. 

 

Now take all of that... and if you’re not exclusively soloing... you have 8 people with different likes and attitudes on a team, all with a different idea on how to play: What an ideal team make up is, and how an ideal team behaves.

 

Honestly the time I have had the most fun in the game were with the strangest team make ups, and the oddest people.  All of this is what makes COH awesome.

 

So sure, for people to kind of be on the same page and to have fun certain edict has risen up.  This isn't crazy.  This happens in all communities.

 

Now it may be the case you think you're God's gift to Scrappers... And that Controller?  He is an idiot and doesn't know what he is doing...  That controller? He thinks you’re the problem and he is the best.  Has all the best techniques.  Been around forever.  What does he know?

 

Ok... Maybe you don't mesh well.  Or maybe, both of you, are not as good as you think you are...  Does it matter?  This is a game, hopefully we are having fun.  To that end…

 

I like the idea of a toggle KB->KD.  And I think it would be fun.  One of the things I like about Kelds is on a team, if one thing isn't working for you, you have a lot of options to pick from.  Modes to switch into as scenarios change, as people come and go on the team.  Because team dynamics change all the time.  Same for Pistols.  You can switch on the fly what you need.  If you team already have a lot of DPS, you set to Rad and help debuff.  Or switch to Fire if need more DPS.  This sort of flexibility I like, even if I don't think the power set is that strong otherwise.

 

The same could be true for a KB->KD toggle.  You can help the team out depending on how the play is going.  If you are a pro KB person, toggle it on KB when there is good opportunity to knock someone against a wall, or some other technique, whatever.  Toggle on KD on when the angle / scenario isn't that good, and you just want to play through.  If you are a pro KD person, use the KD and toggle KB if you have an annoying Foe you want to knock off a bridge 🙂

 

If you are trying to use KB to knock foes into the Tank or some debuff / damage field and it is working, great. 

If it isn't working this time for you or the team, sure maybe the Tank just isn't getting it... You have the option to switch it up. 

Maybe you are learning or experimenting with new / better KB techniques or maybe you just aren't as good as you think you are.  You can toggle and still help the team, and politely leave if it isn't you bag after the mish is over.   

Maybe you prefer the KD but use the KB when you are in trouble or experiment when you see the opportunity.

Covers multiple techniques.  Multiple scenarios.  Flexibility.  Fun.  Sounds awesome to me.

Which is also achievable by using the existing options of slotting one build to convert your KB to KD and another build to not. A flat toggle is not the answer. More enhancement sets that grant KB to KD procs are. Make those sets more appealing to the "KB is suckage and should have never existed" crowd, and the complaints about an "enhancement tax" go away. Make new sets to expand the options for how players are going to play, not the toggle the OP is asking for.

 

Edit: You can even introduce new sets that have a KB to KU proc instead for variety and entertainment factor.

Edit again: KB to Kock In procs? Now you vacuum foes towards you? That could be entertainingly weird.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add quotation marks to the "KB is..." statement.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Which is also achievable by using the existing options of slotting one build to convert your KB to KD and another build to not. A flat toggle is not the answer. More enhancement sets that grant KB to KD procs are. Make those sets more appealing to the "KB is suckage and should have never existed" crowd, and the complaints about an "enhancement tax" go away. Make new sets to expand the options for how players are going to play, not the toggle the OP is asking for.

 

Edit: You can even introduce new sets that have a KB to KU proc instead for variety and entertainment factor.

Edit again: KB to Kock In procs? Now you vacuum foes towards you? That could be entertainingly weird.

No it is not. A toggle means you can change from one Fight to the next, or even during a fight. Builds can only be changed at the trainer.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

No it is not. A toggle means you can change from one Fight to the next, or even during a fight. Builds can only be changed at the trainer.

Go back and re-read the OP. The toggle would be built into the build screen. So you would still have to go back to the trainer to change it. Follow up proposals named Null the Gull instead as an option. So you would have to go to Pocket D and talk to Null to change it. So yes, my comment still stands.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to de-capitalize the 'U' in "Gull".

[FupDup]

On 3/7/2023 at 10:04 AM, FupDup said:

For energy blast, what I've always wanted is a revamp that integrates a toggle as an actual power that takes up a power pick. Something like this:

 

Focused Force (Toggle)

>Replaces Aim

>While active, removes all knockback and knockdown but gives you a small damage and to-hit buff and costs some endurance

 

The way I think about it is that the normal energy blast is like a shotgun, spraying a big load of energy all over the place that can yeet people. Focused Force however would be more of a precision rifle shot, not yeeting anyone because the force is focused into a very small surface area. 

 

Yes, I know that most people would run that toggle all the time. I'm not terribly bothered by that because of the polarizing design that KB has in any non-solo environment. This would certainly let people experience both sides (yeeting and not-yeeting) in a seamless way that doesn't require them to level the character up to 50 twice and spend twice as much inf putting two builds together.

 

And this wouldn't even totally remove the utility of the KB to KD enhancements because using those would still give you some soft control, whereas this toggle wouldn't even let you have any KD at all. 

I just thought of another solution besides a toggle.

 

How about an energy blast revamp that uses a combo system to inflict KB? This could either be like water blast where you have some powers that build up "force" or whatever and some powers that spend force to cause KB (no KB by default without "force" built up), or it could be a more rigid combo system like dual blades where you use the powers in a specific order to make them cause KB. Or something like that, pick your poison. 

 

In either case, people who don't want to send baddies flying could choose to just ignore the combo system. I'm also okay with Rudra's idea to just add a lot more IO sets with the KB/KD proc, but I still kind of feel like the power set itself should give some of this control inside the base kit rather than requiring external items to patch up. And it would be nice to be able to switch between KB'ing and not-KB'ing seamlessly in the middle of a fight without needing to visit a trainer. 

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, FupDup said:

I just thought of another solution besides a toggle.

 

How about an energy blast revamp that uses a combo system to inflict KB? This could either be like water blast where you have some powers that build up "force" or whatever and some powers that spend force to cause KB (no KB by default without "force" built up), or it could be a more rigid combo system like dual blades where you use the powers in a specific order to make them cause KB. Or something like that, pick your poison. 

 

In either case, people who don't want to send baddies flying could choose to just ignore the combo system. I'm also okay with Rudra's idea to just add a lot more IO sets with the KB/KD proc, but I still kind of feel like the power set itself should give some of this control inside the base kit rather than requiring external items to patch up. And it would be nice to be able to switch between KB'ing and not-KB'ing seamlessly in the middle of a fight without needing to visit a trainer. 

What about other KB sets like Assault Rifle? Will every power set that uses KB have to incorporate the new combo system to make use of KB? Another problem is that for those of us that use Energy Blast for its KB would now have to build up our ability to use KB if our combo-triggered KB fails. That takes away a key tool for survival from us.

[Wavicle]

41 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Go back and re-read the OP. The toggle would be built into the build screen. So you would still have to go back to the trainer to change it. Follow up proposals named Null the Gull instead as an option. So you would have to go to Pocket D and talk to Null to change it. So yes, my comment still stands.

Well that’s dumb, that’s not my suggestion.

 

a toggle on your bar, so you can switch ANYTIME 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Wavicle

[FupDup]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What about other KB sets like Assault Rifle? Will every power set that uses KB have to incorporate the new combo system to make use of KB? Another problem is that for those of us that use Energy Blast for its KB would now have to build up our ability to use KB if our combo-triggered KB fails. That takes away a key tool for survival from us.

It's a lot less of an issue for sets like AR because they have several non-knock powers available, so if you're in a situation where you don't want to yeet people then you can lean on the other powers (recharge permitting). The Sentinel variant of AR is a bit more permissive in that regard than squishy AT's. EB is a unique case where the entire set has KB, so I don't think any other set would warrant such a system. 

 

As for EB specifically, I'll admit that is a bit of a flaw in my idea. One fix could be to give most or all of the powers some baseline KD, so that if you slot any KB enhancements then it becomes KB. Otherwise I guess we could make the combo system build up very quickly and/or have 1 or 2 powers that always KB like Power Push so that it's there when you need it. The "build up" system could be granular like some water blast powers where even one charge of "force" would inflict at least a little KB on specific powers, but more charges gives a larger amount of it (kind of like Water Burst from Water Blast). 

[CompSciNerd]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Well that’s dumb, that’s not my suggestion.

 

a toggle on your bar, so you can switch ANYTIME 

 

Yeah I agree.  I have moved passed the idea this should be done at the trainer or some other npc.  It should be able to be done on the fly, any time, with a minimally allowed cool down.  It is better this way.  If my last post didn't reflect that, it was meant to.

 

No npc involved unless people want to be able to buy the toggle at the p2w vendor.  Where you get it I don't care.  I would like it available from character creation in case someone wants to build a character theme around their powers.

 

I can update the original post when I get a chance.

[Captain Fabulous]

28 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Well that’s dumb, that’s not my suggestion.

 

a toggle on your bar, so you can switch ANYTIME 

Imma just leave this here...