Knock back option suggestion

[CompSciNerd]

14 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Imma just leave this here...
 

 

Yup.  Well done Cap.  I like your idea(s) and you guys have moved the ball forward.  Awesome.

[SwitchFade]

Perceptual bias is alive and thriving.

[CompSciNerd]

34 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Perceptual bias is alive and thriving.

 

That's how humanity works.  Watch:

 

Your perception of my perceptual bias is biased and alive and thriving.

 

See?  Everyone has one.

[Rudra]

"Knockback is bad! Having to slot a proc to change it to knockdown is an enhancement tax! It prevents me from slotting the sets with the bonuses I want!"

"Okay, how about some new sets that have procs that convert your knockback to knockdown or even knockup, and grant you the bonuses you want?"

"No! I want a toggle or purchaseable power that converts all knockback to knockdown so I can slot the sets that give me the bonuses I want!"

 

Because it is obviously not about trying to cram as much power into the build as is mechanically possible in the game and losing any amount of efficiency in the name of that pursuit is out of the question. (What is the difference of a shot more? Depending on your build, you don't even have to take any extra shots, you drop targets just as fast from your damage.) And because it is obviously not about keeping mobs in a single spot so the melees can kill it rather then let the character that knocked a foe away deal with that foe themselves. (The current meta is boring as hell, but that is the play style damn near every team I've been on demands of their members.) And because positioning a character to utilize knockback for effect instead of blindly firing at everything that moves from behind the party is as out of the question as moving a couple of feet to deal with a mob outside of the you-can-stand-still-and-murder-them-in-place crowd. (Using jump to get over a target to blast it into the ground? Too difficult or annoying. The character needs to be able to stand in a single spot and have the target stay in a single spot. Hello, static play.) And because asking for more knockback conversion sets that may actually benefit those players the way they want is out of the question.

 

Because teams that tell others they have to slot the KB to KD procs or leave are an entirely fictitious creation of the "KB is good" crowd and no one ever actually gets booted from teams for even daring to join as an Energy Blast character. (Except, they do, and I have been. As soon as it was realized I was Energy Blast, had no KB to KD procs slotted, and was not willing to go spend inf' I did not have to do so. You can't buy a lot of procs with less than 3k inf'. And that would have required me to start a new build. Nope, no way in hell is it possible for a KB character to actually benefit the team. Buh-bye.) Because players using Assault Rifle can 'limit their attacks to just Burst, Flamethrower, Ignite, and the occasional Full Auto instead of using their full power in support of the team so they can avoid doing KB to the target and inconveniencing the team that obviously has to chase that target down' (paraphrased). Because a player "is better off just using their manipulation secondary until only one target is left before using any  energy blast attacks" is a "sound"strategy. Because introducing a toggle or purchaseable power that lets players toggle KB into KD instead won't suddenly become the new "You will use this or leave. And if a single target is KB'ed, you will be booted." demand. Because players are unwilling to concede that there is more than one way to play the game instead of "round them up, keep them in place, and murder them en masse so we can save a few seconds on this mission". Because you obviously can't slot a knockback set like Energy Blast to do horrific damage to even EBs and AVs since "energy is heavily resisted anyways" without any proof that is true and a reddit page saying otherwise.

 

Do you see and understand my frustration with threads like this? Do you understand why I and others are so opposed to the OP? I understand your stance. I disagree with it. Adamantly. I do understand your points though. What I don't understand is your opposition to other solutions that fit your needs. No, it absolutely has to be a toggle so that you can slot the sets you want and get the bonuses you want, not any new sets that may do the same thing and provide you a KB to KD or even KU conversion. No, it has to be a universal toggle that you can acquire and not lose any enhancement slots over so that you can slot the same sets over and over and over. And if it is a new set, it has to be a universal conversion and to hell with anyone that may want to use that set but keep some of their KB attacks as KB.

 

Whatever. We are arguing in circles. Again.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add missing letters.

[Captain Fabulous]

So, to recap:

"Hey, I'm loving my Energy Blaster, but I'm finding all the knockback really hurts when I team. Is there anything I can do about this?"

"Sure thing. Just put an extra slot in every power and then put in a special IO enhancement that converts the knockback to knockdown."

"Oh. What are IO enhancements and where do I get them?"

"They're a special kind of enhancement that you either craft or buy from the Consignment House."

":searches forum for info: Hmm, OK. I found them. Wow, they cost around 3 million INF each! And I need 7 of them! I'm level 34 and only have 1.1 million INF."

"Sucks to be you. You should start grinding for merits and learn how to play the market. And try not to be a nuisance until then. Learn how to control your KB. It's easy."

"How do I control an omnidirectional AoE knockback?"

"You can't."

"So what should I do until I can get all those IOs and enough slots for them?"

"Not my problem."

"There isn't an easier solution that's accessible to everyone? I mean, I don't really want to deal with IO sets or the market or anything like that. I just want to play and have fun."

"No."

"And it requires that I waste 7 slots, just so I'm not a detriment to my team? And that I need over 20 million INF?"

"Yes."

"Why?"

"Because."

"Because why? Why can't an easier solution be implemented?"

"It could, but I am vehemently against it. You need to suffer for your foolishness. You must be penalized and punished. I will broach no reasonable nor rational discussion on the matter. I have spoken."

Did I miss anything?

Edited March 9, 2023 by Captain Fabulous

[seebs]

Didn't the knockback-related-systems overhaul change it so they can now have knockdown of high magnitude, and knockback of low magnitude doesn't necessarily have to change into knockdown?

 

Anyway, I mostly just came in here to remind you that, while there aren't a lot of powers with knockup yet, there will be when the Gravidity Control set shows up.

[Zeraphia]

8 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

So, to recap:

"Hey, I'm loving my Energy Blaster, but I'm finding all the knockback really hurts when I team. Is there anything I can do about this?"

"Sure thing. Just put an extra slot in every power and then put in a special IO enhancement that converts the knockback to knockdown."

"Oh. What are IO enhancements and where do I get them?"

"They're a special kind of enhancement that you either craft or buy from the Consignment House."

":searches forum for info: Hmm, OK. I found them. Wow, they cost around 3 million INF each! And I need 7 of them! I'm level 34 and only have 1.1 million INF."

"Sucks to be you. You should start grinding for merits and learn how to play the market. And try not to be a nuisance until then. Learn how to control your KB. It's easy."

"How do I control an omnidirectional AoE knockback?"

"You can't."

"So what should I do until I can get all those IOs and enough slots for them?"

"Not my problem."

"There isn't an easier solution that's accessible to everyone? I mean, I don't really want to deal with IO sets or the market or anything like that. I just want to play and have fun."

"No."

"And it requires that I waste 7 slots, just so I'm not a detriment to my team? And that I need over 20 million INF?"

"Yes."

"Why?"

"Because."

"Because why? Why can't an easier solution be implemented?"

"It could, but I am vehemently against it. You need to suffer for your foolishness. You must be penalized and punished. I will broach no discussion. I have spoken."

Did I miss anything?

Then you proceed to ask them why they are

They tell you some reason about it being "too overpowered,"

 

Then you point out that it's so viscerally not because there's a completely identical set with KD attached to it...

Then it proceeds to "well yeah you're right and you completely disproved all my arguments that it's overpowered, so just make that set instead."

 

Instead of just admitting that an optional choice that doesn't actually rob anyone of anything and won't powercreep anything, we just get well... this.

[SwitchFade]

Hyperbole is alive and thriving.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

So, to recap:

"Hey, I'm loving my Energy Blaster, but I'm finding all the knockback really hurts when I team. Is there anything I can do about this?"

"Sure thing. Just put an extra slot in every power and then put in a special IO enhancement that converts the knockback to knockdown."

"Oh. What are IO enhancements and where do I get them?"

"They're a special kind of enhancement that you either craft or buy from the Consignment House."

":searches forum for info: Hmm, OK. I found them. Wow, they cost around 3 million INF each! And I need 7 of them! I'm level 34 and only have 1.1 million INF."

"Sucks to be you. You should start grinding for merits and learn how to play the market. And try not to be a nuisance until then. Learn how to control your KB. It's easy."

"How do I control an omnidirectional AoE knockback?"

"You can't."

"So what should I do until I can get all those IOs and enough slots for them?"

"Not my problem."

"There isn't an easier solution that's accessible to everyone? I mean, I don't really want to deal with IO sets or the market or anything like that. I just want to play and have fun."

"No."

"And it requires that I waste 7 slots, just so I'm not a detriment to my team? And that I need over 20 million INF?"

"Yes."

"Why?"

"Because."

"Because why? Why can't an easier solution be implemented?"

"It could, but I am vehemently against it. You need to suffer for your foolishness. You must be penalized and punished. I will broach no reasonable nor rational discussion on the matter. I have spoken."

Did I miss anything?

Inf' is easy to gain and there are players that will freely give you (generically) inf' on request. Especially if it is to slot KB to KD procs and you (generically) are trying to join a team.

 

If you (generically) don't want to take the time to learn how to use a game mechanic to your advantage, that's on you (generically). Not the game. Not the devs. Not other players. That point fails.

 

If you (generically) don't want to use IO's to enhance, improve, or modify your (generically) powers, that's on you (generically). The enhancements are available, and again, there are players that are more than happy to fund your (generically) acquisition of those procs. That point fails.

 

Knockback is neither omnidirectional nor random. The only omnidirectional KB attack I am aware of is Nova from Energy Blast, which still predictably knocks everything away from your (generically) character. That point fails.

 

If you (generically) can't get the enhancements to convert your KB and you (generically) want to join a team, tell the team you (generically) can't afford the procs yet. And if they decline to help you (generically) get them, then you (generically) and the team need to work together around the KB. I can still concede that point however because of how many teams I have found that won't help you (generically) and simply boot you (generically) off the team.

 

No one is saying you (generically) need to be penalized or punished for using a KB power set. Nowhere can you or anyone else show me that anyone said you (generically) should be penalized or punished for using KB. That point fails.

 

I have yet to see any explanation why getting more sets that actually give you (generically) the bonuses you (generically) want so slotting the procs isn't the "enhancement tax" you (generically) claim it to be is a bad thing. (Edit: Which leads me to believe that you (generically) want that situation to continue so that you (generically) can keep claiming "enhancement tax" and push for universal KB toggles or removal.)

 

Want to try again?

 

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

Then you proceed to ask them why they are

They tell you some reason about it being "too overpowered,"

 

Then you point out that it's so viscerally not because there's a completely identical set with KD attached to it...

Then it proceeds to "well yeah you're right and you completely disproved all my arguments that it's overpowered, so just make that set instead."

 

Instead of just admitting that an optional choice that doesn't actually rob anyone of anything and won't powercreep anything, we just get well... this.

It may not be overpowered, but a set that does that already exists. Making sets work the same robs them of individuality. The "single power set, different flavors" thing I was commenting on earlier.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Rudra

[Zeraphia]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It may not be overpowered, but a set that does that already exists. Making sets work the same robs them of individuality. The "single power set, different flavors" thing I was commenting on earlier.

You cannot rob something of individuality if the option that "keeps its identity" would theoretically be accessible at any given moment the user wishes to go back to the original design. 

 

This is the same argument people will use against graphically updating a game in an older section versus leaving it how it is. The developers give a compromise solution where there's an option for the older mode and the updated one. Both were happy. 

 

You don't have to always force everyone to play your preferred original way and deal with dramatically decreased performance as a result. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Zeraphia

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

You don't have to always force everyone to play their way and deal with dramatically decreased performance as a result. 

The devs can also introduce new sets that provide a KB to KD or KU conversion proc that also provide the bonuses of the sets others are claiming they are being denied because of the non-existent "enhancement tax" in their pursuit of the Ultimate Uber God Mode Build. And with the already mentioned players' willingness to donate to other players upon request, those new sets, or at least the procs initially, can be slotted by those that want KB to go the way of the dodo. And personally? If a team is adamant that you (generically) don't use KB? Then they can help fund you (generically) getting those procs to help you slot the sets.

 

This is not a question of the "KB is good" crowd trying to force their play styles on others. This is a question of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd getting even more opportunities to tell others that they are not allowed to use KB. The option to turn KB into KD is already available and can be expanded upon. To the benefit of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd. The OP is a capitulation to the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd that will be used to further restrict the abilities of KB players from using KB, even when used to directly benefit the team. So it is a question of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd's imposition of their play style on others. Which the OP will make much easier for them to do.

 

Edit: If there is a need for players to be able to swap between being able to do KB and not being able to do KB on the fly? Then make a suggestion for players to be able to swap their builds without having to hit up a trainer. A 5-minute timer can be placed on that for whatever reason, I guess. However, with that option, you can have a KB build and a no KB build and swap between them at will.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Rudra

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

This is not a question of the "KB is good" crowd trying to force their play styles on others. This is a question of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd getting even more opportunities to tell others that they are not allowed to use KB. The option to turn KB into KD is already available and can be expanded upon. To the benefit of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd. The OP is a capitulation to the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd that will be used to further restrict the abilities of KB players from using KB, even when used to directly benefit the team. So it is a question of the "KB is suckage and needs to die" crowd's imposition of their play style on others. Which the OP will make much easier for them to do.

I guess that's your interpretation of the crowd's attitude towards a subject. Personally, my thoughts were in the category of these statements:

"Yes, KB honestly to me does suck, especially when used improperly, and too many cases are far too easy to go from 'good use' to 'really bad use.'"

"Do I support removing KB entirely as a feature entirely and replacing it with KD? No I don't at all."

 

"Would I like an option that's more encompassing than having to destroy all of my builds with EB to make them perform at adequate levels relative to literally anything else? YES."

 

I'm not looking to make some "ultra god mode" build, I'm just trying to actually have a non-gimmicky secondary for a very interesting looking powerset that could function adequately. I'm not looking to destroy KB from the game. I'm not looking for excuses to clock teammates on TFs for not using it. I'm not looking for something personally to antagonize other people or take away their playstyles. I'm looking for something that generally pleases the enormous crowd that would prefer literally other than KB (self-included) for their own enjoyments without having to completely eviscerate the potential of a set. Something that doesn't make knockdown the default, you have to actively select that you want that, and keeps KB as the default, meaning if you login to any KB character you made, it still KB's without needing to change any setting, just if you want different you have an option to seek it. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Zeraphia

[Rudra]

37 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I'm looking for something personally to antagonize other people or take away their playstyles.

I'm going to go out an a limb and assume you meant you're not looking....

 

I hear you. As I said earlier, I understand the opposition's stance. Yours is more... I want to say benign, but that is the wrong word... I don't know.

 

However, if you look back through the threads, each time this comes up, it is because Lord or Lady Almighty Powermonger is upset that slotting SA's KB to KD proc hinders their uber build. However, SA gives some really nice bonuses. It is a single damage enhancement behind dedicated damage sets and gives comparable set bonuses, including set damage bonus and global recharge bonus. The bonuses are a little weaker than the best damage sets, but those small percentages are negligible. Except in the eyes of those that need to squeeze every last bit of efficiency out of their builds. So they claim "enhancement tax" because they can't build as uber as desired. Solution to that? Make sets that have a KB conversion proc that has either better bonuses, at the cost of having a higher minimum level, or grants bonuses more in line with what they say they are losing. And the response to that? No. Give us the ability to get rid of KB that doesn't use enhancement slots. Non-negotiable.

 

And I don't know about you or anyone else, but it is extremely frustrating when you sit down and make a character that you absolutely enjoy and you take the time to learn all the nuances and gimmicks of the powers and the moment the team you eagerly join finds out what you are playing gives you the boot. Or demands that you go and buy the KB to KD procs and slot them, right now, lack of funds notwithstanding, or leave the team. That is not a KB problem. That is a perception problem. The perception that KB is a useless mechanic that can only cause problems for the team or slow down their efficiency. Which even you have claimed with your 30-50% reduction if you add in manipulation sets statement. (And I would appreciate evidence of that, because I really don't believe it. At all.)

 

Yes, KB powers can be used to troll teams very effectively. However, a troll will find a way to troll their team without needing power sets that are KB heavy. They do so every day in the game. How do you deal with such a person? You boot them. Done. You can't turn to others and say "you can't use these power sets or effects because they can be used to troll us". That is unfair to the player that is just trying to play the game and be helpful. And if the player is causing problems for the team but is not doing so intentioanlly? You either help that person improve or tell that person "I'm sorry, but htis just isn't working out. Can you swap characters, stop using the problem effect, or maybe take some more time practicing with that character?" And if they prove to be a problem, you boot them.

 

The answer is not to give those who prefer maximum efficiency a better means of telling those that enjoy KB characters that they have to play without KB. There are better solutions. I've tried to present multiple solutions in this thread. And they can even be used together. So here you have a "KB is good" player trying to work with the players in this thread that claim KB is bad, but the only one doing any negotiating in this thread trying to find a solution that meets your needs without stepping on my concerns, is me. Does that seem like an agreeable situation to be in? We already see KB players getting told they have to slot the KB to KD procs or be booted. We already see players getting booted jsut for having Energy Blast as their primary, though fortunately a lot less often than back on Live. So answer this to me please. What option would you, as in those in favor of the OP, be amenable to that does not grant such expansive ability to kill KB?

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm going to go out an a limb and assume you meant you're not looking....

 

I hear you. As I said earlier, I understand the opposition's stance. Yours is more... I want to say benign, but that is the wrong word... I don't know.

 

However, if you look back through the threads, each time this comes up, it is because Lord or Lady Almighty Powermonger is upset that slotting SA's KB to KD proc hinders their uber build. However, SA gives some really nice bonuses. It is a single damage enhancement behind dedicated damage sets and gives comparable set bonuses, including set damage bonus and global recharge bonus. The bonuses are a little weaker than the best damage sets, but those small percentages are negligible. Except in the eyes of those that need to squeeze every last bit of efficiency out of their builds. So they claim "enhancement tax" because they can't build as uber as desired. Solution to that? Make sets that have a KB conversion proc that has either better bonuses, at the cost of having a higher minimum level, or grants bonuses more in line with what they say they are losing. And the response to that? No. Give us the ability to get rid of KB that doesn't use enhancement slots. Non-negotiable.

 

And I don't know about you or anyone else, but it is extremely frustrating when you sit down and make a character that you absolutely enjoy and you take the time to learn all the nuances and gimmicks of the powers and the moment the team you eagerly join finds out what you are playing gives you the boot. Or demands that you go and buy the KB to KD procs and slot them, right now, lack of funds notwithstanding, or leave the team. That is not a KB problem. That is a perception problem. The perception that KB is a useless mechanic that can only cause problems for the team or slow down their efficiency. Which even you have claimed with your 30-50% reduction if you add in manipulation sets statement. (And I would appreciate evidence of that, because I really don't believe it. At all.)

 

Yes, KB powers can be used to troll teams very effectively. However, a troll will find a way to troll their team without needing power sets that are KB heavy. They do so every day in the game. How do you deal with such a person? You boot them. Done. You can't turn to others and say "you can't use these power sets or effects because they can be used to troll us". That is unfair to the player that is just trying to play the game and be helpful. And if the player is causing problems for the team but is not doing so intentioanlly? You either help that person improve or tell that person "I'm sorry, but htis just isn't working out. Can you swap characters, stop using the problem effect, or maybe take some more time practicing with that character?" And if they prove to be a problem, you boot them.

 

The answer is not to give those who prefer maximum efficiency a better means of telling those that enjoy KB characters that they have to play without KB. There are better solutions. I've tried to present multiple solutions in this thread. And they can even be used together. So here you have a "KB is good" player trying to work with the players in this thread that claim KB is bad, but the only one doing any negotiating in this thread trying to find a solution that meets your needs without stepping on my concerns, is me. Does that seem like an agreeable situation to be in? We already see KB players getting told they have to slot the KB to KD procs or be booted. We already see players getting booted jsut for having Energy Blast as their primary, though fortunately a lot less often than back on Live. So answer this to me please. What option would you, as in those in favor of the OP, be amenable to that does not grant such expansive ability to kill KB?

I apologize for getting back a little bit late here, but yes, it was meant that way haha, thank you! Good catch!

 

I cannot speak for the experiences of others. In my view, out of the thousands of hours I've played CoH (granted, I only played a few characters with substantial knockback components) I never once came across a situation where a person with KB was actually told that they would need to slot in KB->KD enhancements in their build while in a mission or before beginning a mission or else they would get the boot. I cannot imagine it's a frequent occurrence, but maybe someone who plays something noticeably more knockback-y in a much more chaotic fashion sees different results. The only times I've seen people get genuinely kicked from a TF over it happened when someone went out of their way to be extraordinarily troll-y with it even after being warned several times it was a problem and several team members complaining about it in team chat. I don't think the "assholes taking over" thing is as big of a problem as some on the forums would make it out to be. I could however of course be very wrong. 

 

I see a couple of different ways to combat the issue, some are more "tame" in approach than others, but they're going to be markedly "strong" in the sense that they are not going to compromise the reason to even make a change in the first place. What I mean by that is, the problem regarding EB is typically its effectiveness is boggled down in a substantial way by its effects acting counter-productively when attempting to use melee or aoe-centric powers. @Galaxy Brain pointed out a good point in a post where he says "tbf, this is a content problem more than a player/power problem. The way the game is structured favors AoE over anything else," where inherently so much of the content is designed around quickly aoe-ing down mobs of enemies, KB poses a significant hinderance to its users and teammates potentially making tasks longer to complete. As to how much longer it takes to complete, this tends to vary in experience, enemy group, level differences between player and enemy, etc. where some will just get instantly one-shot by Nova, and others will be far more resilient where the KB starts to create significant issues. 

 

My goal then with those issues would be to address them in a way that allows EB to retain its KB-centric identity whilst providing an alternative to players who vastly prefer to transform the set into a KD-centric one because of these issues. Giving people who desire to retain KB the powerset they wanted, while granting people who are disgruntled with KB an alternative. I would try to ensure that the alternative meets the following conditions:

• Provides a KB->KD globalization in some fashion without having to use sudden acceleration or an IO into nearly every power of a set with copious amounts of KB. 
• Does not decrease set diversity and aims to only increase the diversities and build complexities. 
• Allows users who prefer KB to know that when making an "Energy Blast" character, that they are getting the advertised KB that they chose on the screen. It IS the default, and to get KD, you must do some personal leg-work to achieve those effects. Therefore, people who currently have EB on their characters who do not want KD at all on their powers, they have free reign to just not seek out these changes. 
• If possible, an IO that even once you've decided "hey, I'd really prefer to have the majority of my powers KD, but maybe I just want this specific power to KB." To have the ability to slot a new enhancement that turns KD->KB. Basically, a reverse Sudden Acceleration that does KD->KB. This also further opens up build diversities.

With those goals in mind, my ideas would be something akin to the following options:

• A free no cost toggle, that allows you to set all of your KB powers to a KD value. When turned off, all of your powers KB again. Default when not turned on will always be that the set KB's, and further if you wish to not have this toggle shown on your screen, you can just not put it in your power tray. Or if the need be, Null the Gull just removes the power from your power selections and would act like it never existed until you talked to Null to re-enable it.
• A 6-slot IO set that at the 6th bonus, reduces all KB effects to a KD value. Default is always KB, but if you go out of your way to get this set and 6-slot it, it's pretty clear you want KD, and are not seeking to KB at all. Keeps both camps happy. I could see that possibly that maybe you need to slot this set twice before it KB->KD's and the initial 6th slot bonus just does nothing until you slot the second 6th slot bonus.
• Take the IO idea further (not sure if it's possible to code it like this) and make a global KB->KD IO that when slotted 2-3 times in unique KB powers, you have all of your KB powers set to a KD value. Adds build diversity and interesting power selection choices, while making EB+melee-centric manipulations more viable. 

All of these would be strong solutions that are better than having to slot every single KB power with a KD enhancement to get it to be all KD for all of the users who just wish they could do so. I personally favor the first option, but would be fine with any of the other options. I'm also open to creative new ideas, but they have to actually address the problems without being just crappy "what's the point?" alternatives. 

 

Further, when implementing these features, I believe it would be a welcomed message from the HC to remind others to be kind to one another. Being rude to another person because they're using a power effect you don't like is just not okay. Reminding people that these alternatives are there to exist as that, alternatives. And they are not to be intended as "if someone does not use them, they are breaking the rules or griefing."

[Rudra]

41 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Provides a KB->KD globalization in some fashion without having to use sudden acceleration or an IO into nearly every power of a set with copious amounts of KB. 

 

41 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

A free no cost toggle, that allows you to set all of your KB powers to a KD value. When turned off, all of your powers KB again. Default when not turned on will always be that the set KB's, and further if you wish to not have this toggle shown on your screen, you can just not put it in your power tray. Or if the need be, Null the Gull just removes the power from your power selections and would act like it never existed until you talked to Null to re-enable it.

I'm always going to be against anything like this. For reasons already given. Not least of which is that if you make a desirable set that has the conversion proc in it, players are going to be happy to slot that set into as many powers as they can get the bonuses from, and that will provide the desired KB to anything else as added incentive. I am a single voice and not a dev. Devs will do whatever they please.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

A 6-slot IO set that at the 6th bonus, reduces all KB effects to a KD value. Default is always KB, but if you go out of your way to get this set and 6-slot it, it's pretty clear you want KD, and are not seeking to KB at all. Keeps both camps happy. I could see that possibly that maybe you need to slot this set twice before it KB->KD's and the initial 6th slot bonus just does nothing until you slot the second 6th slot bonus.

This runs into the problem of "this set is just for us, and only us". Even knockback sets don't take that approach. If there is a new set introduced, I am of the firm opinion it should appeal to and be usable by as many players as possible. And a knockback set that solely exists to turn all knockback into knockdown as a set bonus effectively tells anyone that has knockdown powers that may want to keep any of them, that the proposed set is expressly designed to not be of any use to them despite having the same powers or how nice the set's bonuses are. New options should benefit as many as possible. (Edit: Or if aimed at a few, not give the metaphorical finger to other players. Options that only a few may be interested in should still be openly available to others without forcing them into a set play style. Procs change a single power, so they don't force a play style on a player, just change some of their available options.)

 

41 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Take the IO idea further (not sure if it's possible to code it like this) and make a global KB->KD IO that when slotted 2-3 times in unique KB powers, you have all of your KB powers set to a KD value. Adds build diversity and interesting power selection choices, while making EB+melee-centric manipulations more viable. 

You're going to run into the same "enhancement tax" argument from previous threads with this. "Why should I have to give up 3 potential set slots to slot this singular enhancement 3 times to get its benefits?! ENHANCEMENT TAX!" This is definitely a novel answer though. Haven't seen it before. And I do have to admit it is a definite compromise approach. I still favor the more sets with procs that give more enticing set bonuses approach myself, but I could potentially be okay with this too. I would need more data to make a final determination though.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to fix 4th sentence of 2nd paragraph.

[Parabola]

6 hours ago, seebs said:

Anyway, I mostly just came in here to remind you that, while there aren't a lot of powers with knockup yet, there will be when the Gravidity Control set shows up.

I see what you did there.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

wow guys wall of text crits for over 9000

 

but seriously even if you dont agree with OP (and i do sorta) the sudden acceleration set is broken. literally every other piece provides an ungodly amount of KB and then the proc removes it all? Can we globalize the proc or repair the rest of the enhancements in some way cause otherwise slotting the entire set is kinda pointless.

[TheZag]

18 hours ago, Wavicle said:

No it is not. A toggle means you can change from one Fight to the next, or even during a fight. Builds can only be changed at the trainer.

 

There is a command to change builds anywhere.

 

/selectbuild 1

/selectbuild 2

/selectbuild 3

 

It has built in exploit protection though - all toggles drop, all powers go on cooldown,  all buffs are removed.  Be sure and use whatever long range teleport you need before switching builds.

 

I use it a fair amount on my tank and i never go to the trainer anymore to switch builds.  I type it in when i need it but it could be a macro or a bind as well.

 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

 

There is a command to change builds anywhere.

 

/selectbuild 1

/selectbuild 2

/selectbuild 3

 

It has built in exploit protection though - all toggles drop, all powers go on cooldown,  all buffs are removed.  Be sure and use whatever long range teleport you need before switching builds.

 

I use it a fair amount on my tank and i never go to the trainer anymore to switch builds.  I type it in when i need it but it could be a macro or a bind as well.

 

 

Ok, true, but the penalty makes it useless for this purpose.

Having a toggle on your bar would allow you to CONTROL your Knockback SHOT PER SHOT. Now although there MAY be a legit argument about slotting efficiency, there is no legit argument that says it would be OP to have a powerset that can choose when to KB and when to KD.

[Rudra]

11 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

wow guys wall of text crits for over 9000

 

but seriously even if you dont agree with OP (and i do sorta) the sudden acceleration set is broken. literally every other piece provides an ungodly amount of KB and then the proc removes it all? Can we globalize the proc or repair the rest of the enhancements in some way cause otherwise slotting the entire set is kinda pointless.

If the devs were to release the vectored knock system they teased us about some time back, then it wouldn't be pointless. It would give you a hefty mag KD to overcome any knock resistance the target has. Until then? Yeah, I have to concede that the (edit: Knockback) enhancement bonuses work against the set.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If the devs were to release the vectored knock system they teased us about some time back, then it wouldn't be pointless. It would give you a hefty mag KD to overcome any knock resistance the target has. Until then? Yeah, I have to concede that the enhancement bonuses work against the set.

Correct me if I’m wrong, vectored knock HAS been implemented, just not retroactively for older sets, I think.

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, vectored knock HAS been implemented, just not retroactively for older sets, I think.

If they did for anything other than Singularity(?), I am unaware of it.

[Wavicle]

38 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If they did for anything other than Singularity(?), I am unaware of it.

Battle Axe's new toy. Meteor. There are probably at least a couple others.

[Zeraphia]

17 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

wow guys wall of text crits for over 9000

 

but seriously even if you dont agree with OP (and i do sorta) the sudden acceleration set is broken. literally every other piece provides an ungodly amount of KB and then the proc removes it all? Can we globalize the proc or repair the rest of the enhancements in some way cause otherwise slotting the entire set is kinda pointless.

Unfortunately, while I love to keep things short, I have to get the point across on why some "solutions" aren't really solutions at all, and what would define being a plausible solution. It was really long and I apologize, I just wanted to actually get something out there for people who wanted a set that was actually worth slotting and not just "another crappy alternative." 

 

Sad but I don't think anybody really likes any of my ideas. It's okay though. I did try.

 

I do agree though that the KB set doesn't make tons of sense as it is though and could definitely use some auditing. 

[CompSciNerd]

 

15 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

 

Sad but I don't think anybody really likes any of my ideas. It's okay though. I did try.

 

 

Hey Zeraphia. Thats not true 🙂

 

On 3/10/2023 at 12:50 AM, Zeraphia said:

 

With those goals in mind, my ideas would be something akin to the following options:

• A free no cost toggle, that allows you to set all of your KB powers to a KD value. When turned off, all of your powers KB again. Default when not turned on will always be that the set KB's, and further if you wish to not have this toggle shown on your screen, you can just not put it in your power tray. Or if the need be, Null the Gull just removes the power from your power selections and would act like it never existed until you talked to Null to re-enable it.
• A 6-slot IO set that at the 6th bonus, reduces all KB effects to a KD value. Default is always KB, but if you go out of your way to get this set and 6-slot it, it's pretty clear you want KD, and are not seeking to KB at all. Keeps both camps happy. I could see that possibly that maybe you need to slot this set twice before it KB->KD's and the initial 6th slot bonus just does nothing until you slot the second 6th slot bonus.
• Take the IO idea further (not sure if it's possible to code it like this) and make a global KB->KD IO that when slotted 2-3 times in unique KB powers, you have all of your KB powers set to a KD value. Adds build diversity and interesting power selection choices, while making EB+melee-centric manipulations more viable. 

 

I agree with the first bullet entirely.  In fact, I was thinking why not go further?  For those that are big fans of KB, I see no reason for power sets that are KD to be able to toggle them to KB.  If that really is their play style, and they are as good at it as they say, have at it!  But you still have the option of switching back and forth for different strategies in combat.  Something for everyone.  Likely new combat strategies will develop too.  More fun!  Maybe instead of thinking about this as a KB->KD toggle,  think of it as a KB / KD toggle.  And yeah the default can be KB.

 

More IO sets?  Set's for everyone!  Who wouldn't be in favor of that?  As long as it is "in addition to."  I'm really warming in to the combat toggle idea.  I think that would be a blast to play with.

 

I like your ideas.  No idea is ever going to get all around consensus.  That rarely happens any forum.  The best you can hope for is "buy in."  But, from reading the other posts here I know I'm not the only one who liked them.  People that are the most emotionally invested are going to be the most vocal.  That is just human nature.  But that is not what determines consensus or buy in.  I realize on any topic people feel invested in there is going to be push back.  I was hoping brainstorming new ideas would inspire.  Maybe investment would take place and hopefully some buy in.  Enough to inspire some and satisfy others...

 

And for the record, I liked some of the other thoughts too.  It wasn't really my focus so I didn't comment, but if someone wanted to improve the KB, I have no issue with that.  Someone proposed the idea of more KB should cause more impact damage.  Makes sense to me.  If you are going to slot your power that way, have the benefit.

 

Maybe there is a corresponding KD with minor stun enhancement.  Just throwing out ideas there.

 

I like the ideas.  I'd like to see some of them happen.