Purple Knockback Set w/Universal KB>KD 6 pc set bonus

[Zect]

16 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Well I disagree with most of your other points (though as I said the exact slotting could change), but this one I REALLY disagree with and here’s why:

 

 Creating more kb2kd options is easy and doable. Completely rewriting the game (which is essentially what you’re asking for here) is not.

 

What's easy is irrelevant; what matters is what's good for the game.

[Zect]

15 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Slotting a power like this isn't feasible. Especially multiple powers like this.

 

I mean, this just shows your ignorance of the slotting strategy I am using as an example. Just because you aren't aware of how they work, or aren't able to make them work, and are only able to use a more conventional slotting, doesn't mean you can dismiss the balance implications for such builds out of hand.

 

My point was to demonstrate an example of the slot-efficiency that can be gained even when purple IO's are used, using highly effective procbombing builds as a showcase, hence making a powerful balance argument against this ignorant suggestion. Your attempts at nit-picking aside, you've yet to address any of my core points of 1) huge slot-efficiency gain for all builds by saving multiple KB2KD's and turning them into enhancng/set-bonus-granting slots; and 2) removal of the tension between 6th-piece bonuses and a KB2KD proc, which forces tradeoffs, choices and build diversity.

 

 

 

[Zect]

16 hours ago, FupDup said:

This reads more like an argument for nerfing proc monsters (via the procs themselves and/or the global recharge that enables them) rather than an argument against the OP's suggestion. 

 

I'm personally looking forward to the PPM system balance pass, and hope it happens sooner or later. Nevertheless, even if that system were fixed, my core arguments of large slot-efficiency gains, tension between KB2KD procs and 6th-piece bonuses, and this change further pandering to the un-fun, boring mass-aoe meta still stand.

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Zect

[Outrider_01]

You know, change that proc from Energy Damage to Power Boost and I think you got a first rate product 🤔

[Wavicle]

10 hours ago, Zect said:

 

What's easy is irrelevant; what matters is what's good for the game.

What's actually possible absolutely matters.

[Galaxy Brain]

10 hours ago, Zect said:

un-fun, boring mass-aoe meta still stand.

Tbf, this is a content problem more than a player/power problem. The way the game is structured favors AoE over anything else.

 

[Zeraphia]

12 hours ago, Zect said:

 

I mean, this just shows your ignorance of the slotting strategy I am using as an example. Just because you aren't aware of how they work, or aren't able to make them work, and are only able to use a more conventional slotting, doesn't mean you can dismiss the balance implications for such builds out of hand.

 

My point was to demonstrate an example of the slot-efficiency that can be gained even when purple IO's are used, using highly effective procbombing builds as a showcase, hence making a powerful balance argument against this ignorant suggestion. Your attempts at nit-picking aside, you've yet to address any of my core points of 1) huge slot-efficiency gain for all builds by saving multiple KB2KD's and turning them into enhancng/set-bonus-granting slots; and 2) removal of the tension between 6th-piece bonuses and a KB2KD proc, which forces tradeoffs, choices and build diversity.

 

Lol. I'll address them for you: 

 

What you showcased is an example of taking Apocalypse which is a 10% recharge set, and keeping only 2 of its enhancements as a set, and then taking a best-case scenario which forces an awkward build path where you don't receive actually optimal results for your character and would likely make things like perma-hasten more difficult to achieve, or even if you did achieve it, you likely lost efficiency elsewhere in your build in terms of defense or overall damage output via procs in other areas. I honestly have not seen even a single build that actually uses a slotting mechanism remotely similar to this except for one build I made with Thugs/Storm and that was a special case where I just literally did not have actual ranged blast powers I was going to use in an attack chain and needed to split the bonuses to achieve something for a specific task force segment. 

 

The example provided voids an opportunity for 10% recharge, disables slotting of other blast powers effectively, and restricts your build in terms of availability to other opportunities, such is the same as having to use a KB->KD IO in nearly every KB power to actually eek out performance below other regular blast sets to actually have your manipulation secondary play "cover your ass" on a DPS class. Yes, it's a slot-efficiency gain, no one denies that, but arguing it's too powerful is straight up absurd when there's already Seismic which serves as just proof that KD-centric blast sets are balanced and given how starkly similar these powers are in DPA/animations/etc. there's functionally no balance-worthy changes necessary to make it not "too powerful." 

 

Also, by it being optional, you actually increase build diversity by being able to actually slot things efficiently and access manipulation secondaries in a far more enhanced way than you would otherwise whilst still keeping the KB variation if desired, further given this suggestion, you could still choose to keep only a select few KB->KD powers if desired. These aren't removed, you don't decrease diversity, you increase and expand it. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

On 3/8/2023 at 9:48 AM, Zect said:

This set allows knockback-heavy powersets to gain far too much slot-efficiency.

 

We'll use energy blast as an example.

 

A typical nrg build is 3 ST blasts, 2 aoe's and a nuke, for 6 powers. That's 6 KB2KD procs, at a cost of 6 slots. Slotting 6x Ignorant Suggestion in one of the ST blasts is only 5 added slots, so that's 1 free slot right off the bat. It also comes with a purple (!) damage proc (1 slot), 15% accuracy and 6% damage as set bonuses, and enhancement value for the power itself. You have turned 6 slots with formerly gave no enhancement value nor set bonuses into 6 slots that now give purple scalar enhancement value and purple set bonuses and purple damage procs. That's 6 more slots, at the least.

 

Not having to slot a KB2KD in the remaining powers has implications far beyond merely increasing slot-efficiency.

 

Take this example procbombing nrg ST blast slot loadout for power burst:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. KB2KD proc

Currently, due to the KB2KD proc, it is very hard to max out damage enhancement in the power. A +5 purple single is only 66%. Even musculature core would put it at 15% below the new ED cap. Musc core + overwhelming force would cap it, but both OF and apoc are unique, so this can't be repeated across the set. This introduces tradeoffs and choices that must be made in order to maximize the dps output of each of the energy blast powers. We need to choose between procs and enhancements, and this caps the power of such procbombing builds.

 

With the need for a KB2KD proc removed, the set can now be slotted as follows:

1. Force feedback proc
2. explosive strikes proc
3. gladiator's javelin proc
4. apoc proc
5. +5 apoc: dmg
6. 53 Nucleolus

This gives ED-capped (95%) damage enhancement. In other words, your suggestion is a gain of +29%, minimum, damage enhancement across every power of this build. That's a free alpha slot, before we even get into the advantage of using boosted frankenslotting to patch up other common weaknesses of such builds (such as low endredux enhancement and corresponding high eps cost) which use of KB2KD procs would enforce.

 

I need to emphasize that this situation is by no means not unique to energy blast. For example, stormies have to choose between KB2KD and 6x expedient reinforcement in their slotting of tornado. Either they mitigate the knockback, or they sacrifice the set bonuses. They also cannot slot 6x thunderstrike or 6x ATIO in lightning storm if they want a KB2KD there. These all lead to interesting build design choices and tradeoffs. Tradeoffs are good because they lead to build diversity.

 

Ultimately, though, all these terrible knockback suggestions fail to fix the real issue, if you could call it that, with knockback. There aren't really enough situations where KB is more valuable than herding up enemies into a tight clump and burning them down. We don't need more options to remove KB from the game. We need to give rise to different and equally viable strategies that can compete with the oppressive, boring, unfun, mass-aoe meta.

 

 

your suggestion is harder to implement than OPs, and more options improves diversity.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Saiyajinzoningen

[nihilii]

At first, I liked the idea.

Unfortunately, some other posters have made good points.

The careful, delicate balance of the game, beautifully folded over ten thousand times by the dreams of Jack Emmert, the tears of Positron and the expert hands of our Homecoming devs stands on the edge of a precipice. It's clearly all reliant on Energy Blast remaining exactly as it is today.

 

By giving esoteric proc builds the option of reaching +30% damage in a couple powers, we risk a great migration of Fire Blasters rushing to throw their alts into the flaming pits of King Midas in order to reroll Energy Blasters.

Do not indulge considerations of Blaze animating twice as fast as Power Burst. Do not listen to those who would claim semi-optimized teams can nullify knockback, and would argue Energy blast builds without KB-to-KD procs would necessarily exist today if Energy blast was overly broken in that manner.

Those are lies of heretics.

We must remain steadfast in our defense against the great Power Creep monster.

As a great philosopher once said...

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."

[Zect]

On 3/10/2023 at 7:04 AM, Zeraphia said:

Yes, it's a slot-efficiency gain

 

 

Was that so hard? Procbombing builds are not some alien technology; they are very mainstream, and highly effective.

 

I don't know why you keep trying to downplay the slot-efficiency shown in my example. Obviously, few people would spend 6 slots to save the cost of just one KB2KD proc. We should be most concerned for those cases where adding such an IO set has the greatest possibility to add unwarranted combat power. That means sets with multiple KB powers, strong tension between desired 5th/6th piece bonuses and/or other procs, and build designs where such a proc competes with desired enhancement values, among others. Storm, energy blast, energy assault, etc. are all examples. The other terrible suggestion currently active in this forum would effectively turn all KB2KD procs into free slots. This one proposes to turn them into purple damage enhancers giving purple set bonuses with a purple damage proc. That's not a small gain by any measure.

 

Finally, you keep bringing up seismic blast. Seismic was designed with KD in mind from the start; energy was not. Half of energy's damage comes in a better damtype, and it has no mechanic that interferes with hoverblasting (which I love, by the way; this is not a complaint. I like that they added a game mechanical reason to stay on the ground, instead of going ye olde hover + softcap ranged. That's the kind of diversity we need.)

 

All the counterarguments boil down to "it's imbalanced, but it won't be that bad" or "making KB more viable is impossible/too hard, so let's just do this instead, it's easier". You know what's even easier? Not implementing this idea; developers wouldn't even have to do anything.

 

On 3/10/2023 at 5:40 PM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

more options improves diversity.

 

If you give people the option to 1) eat their cake, 2) have their cake, or 3) eat their cake yet still have it, everyone will choose #3. If we remove #3, maybe some people will choose to eat their cake while others may save it for later. #1 and #2 are only relatively viable in the absence of #3.

 

Don't naively believe "more options = more diversity". Diversity only increases if new options are relatively equal in consideration to the old.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Zect

[kelika2]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:46 AM, Wavicle said:

Focused Force (Purple Knockback Set)
Chance for Energy Damage

6) Universal KB>KD

swap these two and you got yourself a deal.  i will sit in atlas and mercy with my sextillions handing these out

[A.I.D.A.]

Only if you also give me a global I can slot to force all teammates' powers to knockback again, overriding their KB->KD slotting. 🙂

 

Seriously, it's free mitigation. Learn to love it and realize how the game's power snapshotting and animation locks do and don't actually function.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Aida LaCanthe

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

Learn to love it and realize how the game's power snapshotting and animation locks do and don't actually function.

I have to disagree with this line. (At least the bolded part.) Some players are going to love knockback. Some are going to hate it. (And some are going to be ambiguous and so get rid of it because others tell them to.) I'm against any universal Knockback to Knockdown procs, toggles, or set bonuses. However, the way your statement reads, it tells everyone they have to play with knockback regardless of their play style and preferences. We should all be able to play our own way. (We should also be able to work with each other and accomodate each other's play styles.)

 

I'm all for advocating learning how knockback works and leveraging it. I'm against how the bolded portion of the quoted statement reads.

[Grouchybeast]

On 3/12/2023 at 1:24 PM, Aida LaCanthe said:

Only if you also give me a global I can slot to force all teammates' powers to knockback again, overriding their KB->KD slotting. 🙂

 

Seriously, it's free mitigation. Learn to love it and realize how the game's power snapshotting and animation locks do and don't actually function.

 

I would definitely go for a set that when six-slotted added KB to every attack power.  That would be amazing.  (Every attack power on the slotting character, that is.  Not every attack power on the team.  Although...)

[A.I.D.A.]

I only meant to be able to slot something to negate your team's KB->KD slotting. Force people to play with it and maybe they'll get used to it and stop minding it.