Debt Rate Options

[Rudra]

We have the ability to increase our XP gain at P2W. Would it be possible to also have the option to increase our XP debt rate as well?

[Zeraphia]

You're intentionally putting yourself at a disadvantage, and requesting a change few people if any would want and benefit from. I just cannot see this realistically existing. 

[FupDup]

5 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

You're intentionally putting yourself at a disadvantage, and requesting a change few people if any would want and benefit from. I just cannot see this realistically existing. 

It would benefit villains who need to pay off a lot of debt to get one of their main accolades, and also benefit badgers who want all of the debt badges a bit quicker. 

 

It's a pretty weird suggestion but it would be helpful in some circumstances. In the meantime, the workaround is to just purposefully either let mobs kill you (generic "you") and/or throw yourself at mobs that are above your paygrade repeatedly. 

[biostem]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

We have the ability to increase our XP gain at P2W. Would it be possible to also have the option to increase our XP debt rate as well?

Are you asking for the debt ceiling to be increased, or to accrue more debt from being defeated?  If it's only the latter, then just get defeated multiple times...

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

Are you asking for the debt ceiling to be increased, or to accrue more debt from being defeated?  If it's only the latter, then just get defeated multiple times...

The amount of debt accrued per defeat. I am asking for the option to accrue double the normal amount of debt per defeat just like we can get double the amount of xp per defeated foe. In response to your post to just get defeated more often? Then how about we take out double xp and just have players defeat more foes? The option to get double xp exists. Why not double debt?

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

The amount of debt accrued per defeat. I am asking for the option to accrue double the normal amount of debt per defeat just like we can get double the amount of xp per defeated foe. In response to your post to just get defeated more often? Then how about we take out double xp and just have players defeat more foes? The option to get double xp exists. Why not double debt?

Generally games want to advantage the player, not punish them.  There are multiple powers that, in fact, prevent you from accruing additional debt.  It is also far easier and faster to accumulate lots of debt vs the time it would take to clear it.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Generally games want to advantage the player, not punish them.  There are multiple powers that, in fact, prevent you from accruing additional debt.  It is also far easier and faster to accumulate lots of debt vs the time it would take to clear it.

How is it a punishment when the player chooses it? As stated in the OP, it is an option. Not a requested flat change to accrued debt. If the player has to choose it for it to be used, it is not a punishment.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How is it a punishment when the player chooses it? As stated in the OP, it is an option. Not a requested flat change to accrued debt. If the player has to choose it for it to be used, it is not a punishment.

You are looking at it from your perspective, and not from a game design one.  If the player willingly goes in front of an enemy and is defeated, even if they receive great joy from doing so, the game still treats it as a defeat, and still saddles them with debt.  As far as the game is concerned, XP is a reward, and paying off debt, thereby gaining less XP, is a penalty.

Edited March 16, 2023 by biostem

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

You are looking at it from your perspective, and not from a game design one.  If the player willingly goes in front of an enemy and is defeated, even if they receive great joy from doing so, the game still treats it as a defeat, and still saddles them with debt.  As far as the game is concerned, XP is a reward, and paying off debt, thereby gaining less XP, is a penalty.

And that would be your opinion on what constitutes or doesn't constitute punishment. Debt is a game mechanic. And it is a game mechanic with badges assigned to it. So players are rewarded for being defeated enough times. Just like they are rewarded for winning enough times. If a player chooses to accrue debt, then they are making use of a game mechanic. A punishment is inflicted on someone for doing something wrong or failing to do something. So the debt mechanic, if you ignore the associated rewards, is a punishment for being defeated. The debt mechanic, if you add in the associated rewards, is a simple game mechanic players are encouraged to make use of. That is from a game perspective. You are only looking at part of how debt is presented in the game.

 

Edit: And one of those badges is a requirement to get an accolade. So there is added reward for accruing debt.

Edit again: Can villains get that same accolade by going blue side and just getting the blue side version of it? Yes. What about players that want to play pure villains? Like players that want to play pure Praetorians? Tell them tough luck, go blue side and get that version instead, then go back red side and pretend you were never blue side?

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "a".

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

And that would be your opinion on what constitutes or doesn't constitute punishment. Debt is game mechanic.

You are confusing game mechanics with design intent.

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Debt is game mechanic.

Yes, it is a game mechanic, namely one that punishes you for being defeated.

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And it is a game mechanic with badges assigned to it.

Badges signify some sort of milestone within the game, be it dealing X damage or accruing/paying off Y debt.  It's no different than badges for day jobs, which you earn by being logged out.  It still doesn't negate the fact that debt is a penalty against your XP gain.

 

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

A punishment is inflicted on someone for doing something wrong or failing to do so something.

How do you get debt, again?  By being defeated.  I'd call that "doing something wrong" in the grand scheme of the game's design intent.

 

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The debt mechanic, if you add in the associated rewards, is a simple game mechanic players are encouraged to make use of. That is from a game perspective. You are only looking at part of how debt is presented in the game.

If you personally place a lot of value on the debt badge(s), that's fine, but the game treats it no differently than if you randomly happened upon an exploration one.  The XP rewards for earning badges is minimal, and outside of any personal value you may place on them, that is the ultimate gauge by which the game judges something as a reward, (excepting other reward items, like enh's or mats/components that badges don't grant in general).

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

How do you get debt, again?  By being defeated.  I'd call that "doing something wrong" in the grand scheme of the game's design intent.

If you choose to be defeated, and you are defeated, what did you do wrong? Seems like you did something right to me.

 

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

It still doesn't negate the fact that debt is a penalty against your XP gain.

And yet we have the ability to turn off xp completely. So I guess that is a punishment too?

 

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

You are confusing game mechanics with design intent.

No actually, you are. Debt was originally intended as a punishment for being defeated. That was the design intent. Debt has since moved beyond that simple presentation when it not only had 6 badges assigned to it, but became a requirement for a villain accolade to make your character stronger. Is debt still a punishment for being defeated? As long as you are trying to level, yes. If you aren't? Not in the least.

 

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

If you personally place a lot of value on the debt badge(s), that's fine, but the game treats it no differently than if you randomly happened upon an exploration one.  The XP rewards for earning badges is minimal, and outside of any personal value you may place on them, that is the ultimate gauge by which the game judges something as a reward, (excepting other reward items, like enh's or mats/components that badges don't grant in general)

Who cares about the minimal xp exploration badges give you? I'm not talking about exploration badges. What about powers? Does that count as a reward? Like, oh I don't know, the accolade power you get for getting the accolade you need the debt badges for? Or is getting new powers no longer considered a game reward? If that is the case, everyone should stop leveling past level 1. You're only going to get new powers and enhancement slots for them.

 

You keep arguing from the "you get less xp because of debt, so that inherently and unequivocally makes it a bad thing, therefore it is punishment" point of view, but that argument fails when you add in that we are given the ability to completely turn off xp for our characters and that there are players that choose to forever keep their characters in a not level 50 level range. And that is obviously not a punishment. That is a player choice. Just like the OP would be a player choice. If the player wants to accrue more debt? Let them. If you don't want to accrue more debt? Then don't. Or are you only in favor of more options for the game if you will be personally using it?

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra
Edited for spelling and a missed "the".

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

If you choose to be defeated, and you are defeated, what did you do wrong? Seems like you did something right to me.

You are again confusing design intent with player choice.  You can play however you like, but it is a fact that the game treats being defeated as a bad thing.  Heck, even the badges extol your unwillingness to give up after being defeated, as the good part, not the defeat itself.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

And yet we have the ability to turn off xp completely. So I guess that is a punishment too?

In a way, it is - it is a self-imposed limitation you are placing upon yourself.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Debt has since moved beyond that simple presentation when it not only had 6 badges assigned to it, but became a requirement for a villain accolade to make your character stronger.

As I mentioned above, the badges signify you coming back despite being defeated, not in celebration of that fact.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Or are you only in favor of more options for the game if you will be personally using it?

Nice strawman, there.  I'm merely arguing that debt in and of itself is a punishment as outlined by the game and by intent.  As I've stated multiple times, you can play however you want, but don't equivocate a player's choice with what the game considers a reward or a penalty.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

And yet we have the ability to turn off xp completely. So I guess that is a punishment too?

In a way, it is - it is a self-imposed limitation you are placing upon yourself.

You are so off base, it's not even funny. If a player chooses to turn off xp, that is not a punishment. The player has a goal in mind and the xp goes against that goal. Because players back on Live requested the ability to turn off xp, it was given to them. That means it is not a punishment no matter how you look at it. The player wants to play at a set level, and turning off xp makes that possible. It is not a limitation. It is not a penalty. It is something the player wants to do. Just like playing with SOs instead of set IOs is not a penalty or a limitation, it is something some players want to do. Your argument is more than just flawed. It defies the whole point of players asking for and getting the ability to turn off xp. Asking for the ability to get increased debt from a defeat is the same thing. It is not a penalty. It is not a limitation. It is not a punishment. Stop pushing your perception that only getting xp is a reward on others.

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

As I mentioned above, the badges signify you coming back despite being defeated, not in celebration of that fact.

The High Pain Threshold badge requires the character have the Relentless badge (pay off 200,000 debt), it used to require the Deathless badge (pay off 1,200,000 debt). Upon acquiring the High Pain Threshold badge, the character earns/is awarded the High Pain Threshold power which grants the character +10% hit points. That is a reward. The character earns a new power that makes the character more resilient. Your insistence that only xp and salvage drops are rewards flies in the face of how the game actually works.

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Or are you only in favor of more options for the game if you will be personally using it?

Nice strawman, there.  I'm merely arguing that debt in and of itself is a punishment as outlined by the game and by intent.  As I've stated multiple times, you can play however you want, but don't equivocate a player's choice with what the game considers a reward or a penalty.

Then give me a reason why this option should not exist when players have the option of doubling their xp gain rate and have the option of getting zero xp. Your argument has no basis. Your argument boils down to "I view debt as bad. Anything that stops you from getting full value of xp or slows down your xp is bad". And given the options we already have in the game to not get xp at all, that argument doesn't hold water. Give me a reason, given that we can turn off xp, which most definitely inhibits our ability to get xp, since it is set at a limit of zero, why this option should not be considered. Give me a reason that is not "well, despite being able to turn off xp, which completely stops us from getting xp, it is bad for us to have the option to get less xp because we are getting more debt we choose to get". Give me one reason that actually makes sense. (Edit: And if you think players can play however they want, why are you even arguing against the OP? If a player chooses to use the OP's option, guess what? They are playing the way they want.)

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra

[Parabola]

The constant 'never back down, never surrender' arguments around here are utterly exhausting. Maybe it's not life or death important to argue every little point into the ground?

[TheZag]

I probably wouldnt use it regularly but if the devs want to add it i wouldnt be against it either.  Plenty of players have leveled characters to 50 without using double xp (myself included for a character).  I might have used double debt on that toon for a more classic feel and to make battles feel more dangerous.  People tend to play differently when there is more risk to their actions.  And the fact that there are already debt protection powers makes me think it would be a mostly copy and paste job....copy debt protection 100,  add a negative to the value and boom,  debt increase 100.

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

wouldn't it be easier to enable the level pact system for the same effect with twice the fun?

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

wouldn't it be easier to enable the level pact system for the same effect with twice the fun?

How would the level pact achieve the same effect? The leveling pact feature does not affect how much debt a character can accrue. It affects how much xp pacted characters get, keeping them at the same level.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Leveling_Pact

 

Edit: It would also require every character that wants to make use of the OP to be pacted. Even if the concept of the character is the "lone wolf" hero/villain.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra

[lemming]

 

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

The High Pain Threshold badge requires the character have the Relentless badge (pay off 200,000 debt), it used to require the Deathless badge (pay off 1,200,000 debt). Upon acquiring the High Pain Threshold badge, the character earns/is awarded the High Pain Threshold power which grants the character +10% hit points. That is a reward. The character earns a new power that makes the character more resilient. Your insistence that only xp and salvage drops are rewards flies in the face of how the game actually works.

The Unbroken Spirit/UnDaunted is the debt badge you mean.    Relentless is 1 million damage done.  (This changed at some point, issue 16?)

 

In any case, this isn't much of a speedbump for the accolade.  By the time you get the Bad Luck badge, you can easily do the 200k of debt.  though this will get you the rez power free from p2w.

 

The Stat accolades seem to be easier for red side or blue side for two each though I tend to just take advantage of the Invader TFC in order to avoid Synapse.

 

I don't see the harm in the option, but I don't think it's a great use of dev resources.

Edited March 16, 2023 by lemming
formatting

[Zeraphia]

Rudra I think you might just need a really unoptimized, very defenseless Fire/Fire Blaster build!

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

 

The Unbroken Spirit/UnDaunted is the debt badge you mean.    Relentless is 1 million damage done.  (This changed at some point, issue 16?)

 

In any case, this isn't much of a speedbump for the accolade.  By the time you get the Bad Luck badge, you can easily do the 200k of debt.  though this will get you the rez power free from p2w.

 

The Stat accolades seem to be easier for red side or blue side for two each though I tend to just take advantage of the Invader TFC in order to avoid Synapse.

 

I don't see the harm in the option, but I don't think it's a great use of dev resources.

That whole argument was predicated on the claim that the OP should not be done because it would be a punishment. As opposed to another option to let players play the way they may choose to. So I was compelled to point out that getting debt also has its rewards. Such as the High Pain Threshold power you get with the High Pain Threshold badge. Also, not least of which would be the debt badges themselves for the badgers in the game who set out to be defeated ad nauseam to get those badges. The point of the OP is to let players accumulate said debt at an increased rate just like they can accrue xp at an increased rate. If the devs decide it is not a great use of their time/resources, that is their decision to make.

 

When it comes to the debt badges, I keep thinking back to before there was a debt cap. Back when xp debt for being defeated was decidedly higher than it is now and some players including myself had several levels of debt built up. Not intentionally mind you, there was no reason to want debt back then. Though it did have the benefit of making it possible for my dark/dark scrapper to always have every enhancement slot filled with current SOs as I leveled. However, we do have debt badges now. Players do pursue those badges. And this would be a benefit to them. As @TheZag said, the option can also be used by players to give themselves higher consequence for being defeated. Added encouragement to avoid it. There are different ways players can use the OP. I hadn't even thought of @TheZag's approach until it was mentioned today. Available options can be used by players for whatever suits them and they deem fits. The OP would also quite likely be the simplest suggestion to be implemented in the game I have seen in the forums in quite some time. The ability to implement the OP already exists in the game. We can decrease how much debt we get. The game already had higher debt accrual rates before it was turned down. So implementing the OP is well within the realm of feasible and would require far less dev time/resources than most other suggestions I have seen.

 

I get that you don't think it would be a great use of dev time. I think it would be a simple use of dev time. Let's let the devs decide if it is worth their time.

 

Edit: Also: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Relentless_Badge

I was using paragonwiki as my reference. HC changed it.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add two missing words and correct mispelled "have".

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Rudra I think you might just need a really unoptimized, very defenseless Fire/Fire Blaster build!

And what about any other player that wants to pursue debt for any reason? Like badgers?

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra
Edited for spelling.

[Zeraphia]

Just now, Rudra said:

And waht about any other player that wants to pursue debt for any reason? Like badgers?

Oh hun, it was a joke haha

[lemming]

The argument for this seems to be so one can get the debt badges quicker, so one can get High Pain Threshold.  So why not a p2w power that doubles the number of defeats, so that defeating 1 Fake Nemesis counts as two, etc...? 

 

On ease of coding; Maybe?   Would have to check interaction with patrol xp and the various debt protection powers.

[Rudra]

Because counting defeated mobs isn't the same thing as counting xp. Whether normal xp acquisition or debt reduced xp acquisition, it is still xp acquisition. The count of defeated targets is not.

 

Edit: And if you want to address how debt protection and patrol xp would interact with it, I would say debt protection overrides it, since like turning off xp, it prevents the accumulation of debt. As for patrol xp, it already pays off debt, so I would presume it would still function the same.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Rudra

[Greycat]

Ehhh.... doesn't it kind of cheapen those badges?

 

Why not just ask for the value needed for those badges to get cut in half?

 

... or is this just a sneaky way for you to get rid of that patrol XP faster? 😉