Expand the level range of Hollows' Contacts/Arcs

[Sakura Tenshi]

Just throwing this out there, I know there's options like 'turn off EXP' and ouroboros, but I remember from back on live an attempt to actually try to go through the Hollows arcs from 5-14 and by the time I finished Julius the troll.. I had outleveled Talshak the Mystic (who is a narrow 12-14 contact). I do know Trolls and outcasts can go up to 20 thereabouts, not sure about the Minions of Igneous. Still, I'd like to say this could be something worth looking into just as an alternative to going into Kings Row's far more generous arc ranges.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

This is true of a great deal of content throughout the game. Even worse i've been told that not all arcs are included in Oro. There have been many proposed solutions to this issue. The general consensus is that it would be a great deal of effort to scale up foes to match a characters increasing level. Then again there's always exemping a team down to match the content levels. Keep in mind the HC squad is small. They have a lot going on between balancing powers, creating new powers, animations, sound, bugs, costumes and new enhancements. For now use oro, as that is the original solution to finish outleved arc. While it is not perfect 

 

1. Bugged quests
2. Cant invite others mid arc
3. missing quests

It is better than nothing. I too enjoy the unique and nostalgic storylines or the olden times. Perhaps we will meet up one to day kil skuls

Edited May 7, 2023 by Saiyajinzoningen

[KaizenSoze]

Or we can do what Thunderspy has done and make impossible to out level contacts.

 

Not sure how much effort that was for their dev team.

[Major_Decoy]

3 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Or we can do what Thunderspy has done and make impossible to out level contacts.

 

Not sure how much effort that was for their dev team.

I haven't tried Thunderspy, but I'm not entirely sure I like that idea. It kind of depends on how they approach it. If it's a "you get exemplared down to the level of the mission" that seems fine, but if it's a "The enemies get leveled up to match yours" I don't really feel like level 50 outcasts or non-incarnate fueled Trolls are entirely appropriate for game lore.

[The Chairman]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:22 AM, Sakura Tenshi said:

Just throwing this out there, I know there's options like 'turn off EXP' and ouroboros, but I remember from back on live an attempt to actually try to go through the Hollows arcs from 5-14 and by the time I finished Julius the troll.. I had outleveled Talshak the Mystic (who is a narrow 12-14 contact). I do know Trolls and outcasts can go up to 20 thereabouts, not sure about the Minions of Igneous. Still, I'd like to say this could be something worth looking into just as an alternative to going into Kings Row's far more generous arc ranges.

 

Minions of Igneous do scale to at least level 20. They appear as such in SSA1 Part 1 - Who Will Die? Part 1.

[UltraAlt]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:22 AM, Sakura Tenshi said:

ust throwing this out there, I know there's options like 'turn off EXP' and ouroboros, but I remember from back on live an attempt to actually try to go through the Hollows arcs from 5-14 and by the time I finished Julius the troll.. I had outleveled Talshak the Mystic (who is a narrow 12-14 contact). I do know Trolls and outcasts can go up to 20 thereabouts, not sure about the Minions of Igneous. Still, I'd like to say this could be something worth looking into just as an alternative to going into Kings Row's far more generous arc ranges.

 

On 5/7/2023 at 4:57 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

The general consensus is that it would be a great deal of effort to scale up foes to match a characters increasing level. Then again there's always exemping a team down to match the content levels. Keep in mind the HC squad is small. They have a lot going on between balancing powers, creating new powers, animations, sound, bugs, costumes and new enhancements. For now use oro, as that is the original solution to finish outleved arc.

 

Actually, the Oro was a way of giving end-gamers something to do.

 

But, back to the main point of this and a possible solution....

 

The game knows what level your character is - we'll call that your "actual level".

The game also knows what level you have been sidekicked or exemplar-ed to - we'll call that the "active level". 

The game knows that you can only get missions from contacts within their level range - we'll call this "active contact level".

 

What if a player can set their "active contact level" to that of or below their "actual level" in the options menu?

 

This would allow a "actual level" 30 to set their "active contact level" down to - say - 12 (which would become their "active level" at that point when they aren't sidekicked or exemplar-ed), so that they could go to a contact that will give someone missions at level 12 and get level 12 missions (as that is their "active contact level"). That is to say, changing your "active contact level" not only exemplars your "active level" down to the "active contact level", but also contact see your character as being "active contact level" for getting missions.

 

That seems to be the easiest way to handle it to me.

No need to scale enemies up.

No need to tamper with missions or contacts.

Everything is handled through the normal character relations to contacts as the contacts will "see" your character as being the level you have set as your character's "active contact level"

 

[Side Note 1 :Possibly, this option would be ignored when you sidekick/exemplar. This would be to avoid abuse for powerleveling, but I don't think there is much concern about power-leveling at this point. (seriously, there seems to be none - so this is really a moot point). The difference it would make between sidekicking/exemplar-ing from the "actual level" or "active contact level" to "active level" wouldn't be that huge of a difference based on the current sidekicking system anyway.]

 

[-separate train of thought - 

Personally, I think it it time to relook at the exemplar system in general.

It leaves players too overpowered compared to characters that are on that level.

I understand that it was a mechanic to entice higher-leveled players to run on a lower level team. However, it makes them dominant on those teams and that isn't necessarily a "good time" for the mission holder.

I would rather see reducing a character down to the level of the team leader instead of allowing them to have powers +5 levels - or whatever it is.

This I think would be time consuming, and, of course, the higher level players in this situation would be complaining about how their powers are "gimped" when they are taking part in lower level content.

-back to our current topic-]

 

This "active contact level" option seems a simpler method to achieve the goal.

Accessed by the options menu.

Makes you appear to be level x to a contact when you set your "active contact level" to level x.

In addition, it functions to transform your character's "active level" to "active contact level" in the same manner as the sidekick/exemplar system.

It makes your character's "active level" equal to your character's "active contact level" when you are solo, leading a team, or running one of your active missions.

Doesn't require changing any enemies, missions, or contacts.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by UltraAlt
fine tuning

[Saiyajinzoningen]

45 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

Actually, the Oro was a way of giving end-gamers something to do.

 

But, back to the main point of this and a possible solution....

 

The game knows what level your character is - we'll call that your "actual level".

The game also knows what level you have been sidekicked or exemplar-ed to - we'll call that the "active level". 

The game knows that you can only get missions from contacts within their level range - we'll call this "active contact level".

 

What if a player can set their "active contact level" to that of or below their "actual level" in the options menu?

 

This would allow a "actual level" 30 to set their "active contact level" down to - say - 12 (which would become their "active level" at that point when they aren't sidekicked or exemplar-ed), so that they could go to a contact that will give someone missions at level 12 and get level 12 missions (as that is their "active contact level"). That is to say, changing your "active contact level" not only exemplars your "active level" down to the "active contact level", but also contact see your character as being "active contact level" for getting missions.

 

That seems to be the easiest way to handle it to me.

No need to scale enemies up.

No need to tamper with missions or contacts.

Everything is handled through the normal character relations to contacts as the contacts will "see" your character as being the level you have set as your character's "active contact level"

 

[Side Note 1 :Possibly, this option would be ignored when you sidekick/exemplar. This would be to avoid abuse for powerleveling, but I don't think there is much concern about power-leveling at this point. (seriously, there seems to be none - so this is really a moot point). The difference it would make between sidekicking/exemplar-ing from the "actual level" or "active contact level" to "active level" wouldn't be that huge of a difference based on the current sidekicking system anyway.]

 

[-separate train of thought - 

Personally, I think it it time to relook at the exemplar system in general.

It leaves players too overpowered compared to characters that are on that level.

I understand that it was a mechanic to entice higher-leveled players to run on a lower level team. However, it makes them dominant on those teams and that isn't necessarily a "good time" for the mission holder.

I would rather see reducing a character down to the level of the team leader instead of allowing them to have powers +5 levels - or whatever it is.

This I think would be time consuming, and, of course, the higher level players in this situation would be complaining about how their powers are "gimped" when they are taking part in lower level content.

-back to our current topic-]

 

This "active contact level" option seems a simpler method to achieve the goal.

Accessed by the options menu.

Makes you appear to be level x to a contact when you set your "active contact level" to level x.

In addition, it functions to transform your character's "active level" to "active contact level" in the same manner as the sidekick/exemplar system.

It makes your character's "active level" equal to your character's "active contact level" when you are solo, leading a team, or running one of your active missions.

Doesn't require changing any enemies, missions, or contacts.

 

 

 

hey man check out 

 

Thunderspy Gaming - A City of Heroes Private Server

 

contacts scale to your level as well as enemies. Its a solution that has already been implemented. which is much easier than reworking oro or exemplar/malefactoring. The Thunderspy solution also addresses all of the issues that plague Oro that were mentioned earlier in this thread

Stay safe out there and have fun 🥳

Edited May 9, 2023 by Saiyajinzoningen

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Thunderspy Gaming - A City of Heroes Private Server

 

contacts scale to your level as well as enemies. Its a solution that has already been implemented. which is much easier than reworking oro or exemplar/malefactoring. The Thunderspy solution also addresses all of the issues that plague Oro that were mentioned earlier in this thread

Stay safe out there and have fun 🥳

 

I pass on that.

I like it over here at Homecoming.

 

What steps did they take to scale up the enemies? Did they even bother?

 

I didn't bring up the Oro or reworking it.

 

Exemplar-ing/sidekicking is already part of the game. The game sets you to that "active level". It wouldn't be a huge change to let a player set their "active level" at or below their current "actual level". That is what Exemplar-ing does. I use the term "active content level" as it would be essential self-exemplar-ing versus being on a team and being exemplar-ed.

My comments on changing exemplaring was a side note. I for one do not enjoy level 50's joining my PUG groups and steamrolling the missions my team is running as a team. I don't expect it to happen for the main point of it being time consuming for the DEVs plus they would get negative feedback from the level 50's that want to show how cool they are by ruining leveling-characters gaming experience.

 

If there is a change, characters should be scaling down to a contacts content and not the other way around. (needless, to say "from my point of view")

Higher level enemies that cannot be defeated are "ding" when you are level-up enough to defeat them.

 

I don't power-level to 50. I like playing the game. Sometimes it would be fun to level-down to run content that I could PUG.

Oro missions locked to the characters that start it.

 

My suggestion is an alternate method from locking XP.

You still get XP when you are exemplar-ed.

 

Have fun at Thunderspy if that is where you enjoy playing, but have fun wherever you game because, hopefully, that is the reason that we are gaming.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

56 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I pass on that.

I like it over here at Homecoming.

 

What steps did they take to scale up the enemies? Did they even bother?

 

I didn't bring up the Oro or reworking it.

 

Exemplar-ing/sidekicking is already part of the game. The game sets you to that "active level". It wouldn't be a huge change to let a player set their "active level" at or below their current "actual level". That is what Exemplar-ing does. I use the term "active content level" as it would be essential self-exemplar-ing versus being on a team and being exemplar-ed.

My comments on changing exemplaring was a side note. I for one do not enjoy level 50's joining my PUG groups and steamrolling the missions my team is running as a team. I don't expect it to happen for the main point of it being time consuming for the DEVs plus they would get negative feedback from the level 50's that want to show how cool they are by ruining leveling-characters gaming experience.

 

If there is a change, characters should be scaling down to a contacts content and not the other way around. (needless, to say "from my point of view")

Higher level enemies that cannot be defeated are "ding" when you are level-up enough to defeat them.

 

I don't power-level to 50. I like playing the game. Sometimes it would be fun to level-down to run content that I could PUG.

Oro missions locked to the characters that start it.

 

My suggestion is an alternate method from locking XP.

You still get XP when you are exemplar-ed.

 

Have fun at Thunderspy if that is where you enjoy playing, but have fun wherever you game because, hopefully, that is the reason that we are gaming.

 

All I did was present a ready made solution to all the problems listed in this thread. 

I also do not like steamrolling or farming or AE, we all have our ways we prefer to play.

I Do not play on Thunderspy i simply am a huge COH fan and try to stay as informed as possible about all things COH (i can hear people shouting nerd, lol). 

I do not have answers to the questions you have posed about Thunderspy unfortunately.

but with limited manpower and time, low hanging fruit is most likely to be picked.

I apologize if my "stay safe out there" came across as passive aggressive, I end all my social interactions with "stay safe" due to the pandemic.

 

 

 

[UltraAlt]

58 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

but with limited manpower and time, low hanging fruit is most likely to be picked.

 

Exactly.

 

Of the options to make change that would allow someone to play lower level missions without using the Ouroboros ... which would give access to all missions (which you have pointed out are not all available in the Ouroboros), I suggested one based on leveraging an existing game mechanic - exemplar-ing - but with the added trait that it affects your "active" character level without being on a team and running someone else mission to the point that contacts see you as being that "active" level.

 

I've seen comments that the codes are so different on other servers that porting over parts of their code would not be as simple as "plug and play".

 

I too am just making suggestions. The DEVs are going to make the decision regardless.

 

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

I apologize if my "stay safe out there" came across as passive aggressive, I end all my social interactions with "stay safe" due to the pandemic.

 

Which is understandable.

 

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

I Do not play on Thunderspy i simply am a huge COH fan and try to stay as informed as possible about all things COH (i can hear people shouting nerd, lol). 

 

I'm a big CoH fan as well, but haven't bothered paying any attention to the other servers.

I have run into players here that do play on Thunderspy ... as well as here.

 

I apologized for my assumption that you play on Thunderspy.

I just closed trying to make it clear that I hoped you were having fun gaming regardless of which server or which game you were playing.

 

Thanks for the reply. 

[lemming]

16 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Of the options to make change that would allow someone to play lower level missions without using the Ouroboros ... which would give access to all missions (which you have pointed out are not all available in the Ouroboros), I suggested one based on leveraging an existing game mechanic - exemplar-ing - but with the added trait that it affects your "active" character level without being on a team and running someone else mission to the point that contacts see you as being that "active" level.

The method used by Lord Schweinzer & Agent Hassel for Mayhem & Safeguards may be feasible if that could be ported to normal contacts.

[KaizenSoze]

A lot of lower level content is unused, except for obsessive badgers like me through oro.

 

I don't consider it a major issue if mobs have not been power scaled to 50. At least the content is being used. Players are quite happy to run PI council radios, which are no challenge. Farm wolf and Freakshow maps. So, what if they start farming Kings Row skull arcs, which I doubt would happen. Folks might even learn some lore by accident.

 

I would totally run a +3/4 Kings Row arc team at 50 for badges. I would like to run any number of zone arcs with PUGs. Hollows, Steel, Skyway, and Croatoa for instance. 

 

Twinshot and Dr. Graves would be much more pleasant at 20 or higher than currently.

 

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, lemming said:

The method used by Lord Schweinzer & Agent Hassel for Mayhem & Safeguards may be feasible if that could be ported to normal contacts.

 

I haven't used either for a while.

Do those contacts exemplar you down to the level of the zone in which the Mayhem or Safeguard occur? 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I haven't used either for a while.

Do those contacts exemplar you down to the level of the zone in which the Mayhem or Safeguard occur? 

No. They give you access to the Safeguard/Mayhem and then when you enter, you find yourself at the max level for the Safeguard/Mayhem just as if you were doing it through Ouroboros. When not on the mission map, you are still the character's actual level.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

They give you access to the Safeguard/Mayhem and then when you enter, you find yourself at the max level for the Safeguard/Mayhem

 

How would that work in regard to getting missions from contacts? (in this example, the hollows)

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

When not on the mission map, you are still the character's actual level.

 

huh, I ran an Oro tonight (well from the base crystal thing), and I didn't think to check what level I was outside of missions....

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

How would that work in regard to getting missions from contacts? (in this example, the hollows)

 

 

huh, I ran an Oro tonight (well from the base crystal thing), and I didn't think to check what level I was outside of missions....

When you do an Ouroboros flashback, your character is malefactored/exemplared down to the max level of that arc/mission. So whether you are on a mission map or zone map, your character is at the max level for that contact's mission/arc.

 

When you use Agent Hassell or Lord Schweinzer, your character stays at their current level, but exemplars/malefactors down as needed to the max level of the Safeguard (Hassell) or Mayhem (Schweinzer) for as long as you are on the instance map.

 

So the way Ouroboros and the unlockable Safeguard/Mayhem contacts work is different. This is likely because missions/arcs from Ouroboros can include street sweep missions, so you would need to be the correct exemplared/malefactored level to get that mission still, whereas the Safeguards/Mayhems are one-shot missions that are always on the same instance map.

 

Edit: To answer your first question, it really wouldn't work for the Hollows or other content like it. Because you would only be the correct level while on an instance map. So your character would still be out of level for the street sweep missions. And Hollows missions include street sweeps. (Sorry for not answering your 1st question 1st.)

 

Edit again: If players are fine with just obliterating grey mobs for their street sweep missions, then I guess the Agent Hassell/Lord Schweinzer method would actually work just fine.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Rudra

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

When you do an Ouroboros flashback, your character is malefactored/exemplared down to the max level of that arc/mission. So whether you are on a mission map or zone map, your character is at the max level for that contact's mission/arc.

 

Agreed.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

When not on the mission map, you are still the character's actual level.

 

That is why the above confused me.

But I see where my confusion started.

This is only referring to the safe guard/mayhem contacts and not the ouroboros contacts.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Edit: To answer your first question, it really wouldn't work for the Hollows or other content like it. Because you would only be the correct level while on an instance map. So your character would still be out of level for the street sweep missions. And Hollows missions include street sweeps. (Sorry for not answering your 1st question 1st.)

 

Yeah, that's why I went with the "active contact level" idea. It would set the level that contacts would see you as being and, therefore, give you missions if you are within their level-band for providing missions.

 

Of course, the exploit would be turning it off once you have talked to a contact and run greyed out missions, but I would only think that would be abused to get badges or perhaps temp powers. I don't think either of those abused of the system will "make or break" anything.

 

The main intent seems to be able to run missions and enjoy the content at a level that makes them fun to play and be able to recruit other players to join in the fun.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Edit again: If players are fine with just obliterating grey mobs for their street sweep missions, then I guess the Agent Hassell/Lord Schweinzer method would actually work just fine.

 

I have fun fighting large mobs that are above my level. Trying to figure out how to break some away from the group ... but that's when I'm solo.

Hunt missions when on a team are a bit annoying.

 

I think that is why there was a big move toward scanner/paper mission teams.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I feel like I should clarify that while I would like content levels of access to open up across the board, I bring up the Hollows specifically because the contacts tend to have a very narrow level band relative to the length/exp rewards of the arcs, and as mentioned, Talshaak is especially bizarre with only having a level range of 12-14: two levels.

[Rudra]

Honestly, I think I would be fine with contacts working like Agent Hassel and Lord Shweinzer. This would let players fill their contact bars (for contacts where that is possible), play through the content without needing the Ouroboros time travel bit, be able to do the content at level still for the instanced missions at least, and they would still need to use Ouroboros to go back and do it again if they want to since contacts only give each of their missions once. (I'm not a fan of the street sweep missions, so I would personally be fine with obliterating gray mobs to get those out of the way.)

 

This would also let players do things like the Laura Lockhart arc and then follow up doing it through Ouroboros to get the alternate ending without having to wonder why if they are already doing her arc through Ouroboros, they can't just jump straight to the alternate ending if they out-leveled her since she isn't an announced contact.

 

However! Yep, there is a however. The contacts should still work as normal in that they only give each of their missions/arcs once. So if you want to repeat it, you will still need to go to Ouroboros. It is the only thing that makes sense to me. And the duplicate contacts for any given arc are still locked out for having done that content as they currently are.