Can a person automatically upgrade standard IO enhancements?

[Story Archer]

Right now I'm using SO enhancements, but I'm getting into my early to mid 20's and I'm looking at diving into IO's. With SO's I can simply pay a fee to raise the effective level of all of my enhancements across the board. Can I do that with IO's as well, raising their effective level by paying a single fee? I know that they don't expire with level but they don't improve either and as a newer player I don't quite have the crafting system down yet. I wanted to see if I could save some money and (potentially wasted) effort by simply upgrading the IO's once I've bought them

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

Right now I'm using SO enhancements, but I'm getting into my early to mid 20's and I'm looking at diving into IO's. With SO's I can simply pay a fee to raise the effective level of all of my enhancements across the board. Can I do that with IO's as well, raising their effective level by paying a single fee? I know that they don't expire with level but they don't improve either and as a newer player I don't quite have the crafting system down yet. I wanted to see if I could save some money and (potentially wasted) effort by simply upgrading the IO's once I've bought them

 

Nope.  The benefit of common IOs is that they never get outleveled.  You can always get a certain % out of them.  The downside is that in order to upgrade to higher %, you need to go through the effort of upgrading.

 

I'm assuming you are talking about common IOs as opposed to invention sets?  If the latter, then we are going to get into a discussion about invention sets at a specific level v. attuned which level with you.

[Story Archer]

5 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Nope.  The benefit of common IOs is that they never get outleveled.  You can always get a certain % out of them.  The downside is that in order to upgrade to higher %, you need to go through the effort of upgrading.

 

I'm assuming you are talking about common IOs as opposed to invention sets?  If the latter, then we are going to get into a discussion about invention sets at a specific level v. attuned which level with you.

Yes, common IO, not the full sets. I figured as much - thank you for the response.

[Psyonico]

But here is an interesting thing to remember:

 

At level 25, common IOs have slightly less than even level SO strength

 

BUT: at level 30, common IOs become stronger then even level SOs... Meaning you can just buy and slot level 30 IOs at level 27+ and save inf.

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Yes, common IO, not the full sets. I figured as much

 

@Yomo Kimyata is talking about slotting non-set IOs versus set IOs.

 

You don't need to slot entire IO sets. In fact, seem to have a better "break" if you just slot 2 or 3 of them in a power.

I often have powers with a couple of accuracy and an end redux or recharge along with 3 IO set enhances.

 

I always run attuned IO set enhances. They cost the same as buying them at the lowest level unattuned ones. Watch what the lowest level is that an attuned set IO can be slotted. Sets usually accumulate to have better bonuses than slotting an SO or non-set IO in some area or another. This is especially true of set IOs that have a global effect across all or several of your powers.

 

I rarely slot non-set IOs. The SO's are good or better until up into the 30's or higher. If the non-set IOs level is 5 below you, and SO at level will be more powerful.

[biostem]

11 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Right now I'm using SO enhancements, but I'm getting into my early to mid 20's and I'm looking at diving into IO's. With SO's I can simply pay a fee to raise the effective level of all of my enhancements across the board. Can I do that with IO's as well, raising their effective level by paying a single fee? I know that they don't expire with level but they don't improve either and as a newer player I don't quite have the crafting system down yet. I wanted to see if I could save some money and (potentially wasted) effort by simply upgrading the IO's once I've bought them

My general approach is to slot level 25 generic IOs upon hitting level 22, then continue to craft and slot them until I hit 50, at which point, I'll start to accrue reward merits or Inf to either fully slot out one of my other builds or just replace those 25 IOs as I go.  If you keep them on that initial build, you'll retain their full effectiveness should you choose to do lower level content, (at least to greater degree than if you were trying to use 50+ IOs on a Yin TF or something).

[Story Archer]

Obviously I need to do a deeper dive on some of this - I appreciate the patient replies and the good advice. I'll definitely take advantage of it.

[macskull]

Slotting level 25 or 30 generic IOs has a higher upfront cost than a similar SO but the benefit is that it's a one-time expense and then you never need to worry about it again.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Slotting level 25 or 30 generic IOs has a higher upfront cost than a similar SO but the benefit is that it's a one-time expense and then you never need to worry about it again

 

well, I guess you don't have to worry about it if you don't want the improved bonus of higher level enhancements.

[macskull]

47 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

well, I guess you don't have to worry about it if you don't want the improved bonus of higher level enhancements.

This discussion is solely based on cost in a direct comparison to SOs.

[Without_Pause]

53 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

well, I guess you don't have to worry about it if you don't want the improved bonus of higher level enhancements.

I wouldn't be surprised if the number of characters I took to 50 with common level 25s isn't in the 30+ range. Most of them never got touched even after hitting 50. They played fine. I barely used IOs sets on Live, and only on one character. Another benefit of common IOs is you can strip them from a character and give them to another character you have without worrying about their origin. If I was starting out, I would either have a solo base where I stock pile common IOs, or do so with uncommon IOs where I frankenslot a build until later. Any set bonus would be simply that as it would still be better than using purely commons, and uncommons can go for rather cheap prices. Even if I hardly use them anymore, my base has a number of crappy uncommons stored just in case. 

 

I would be okay if a mythical CoH 2.0 never used TOs, DOs, or SOs.

[UltraAlt]

18 hours ago, macskull said:

This discussion is solely based on cost in a direct comparison to SOs.

 

if you level up the IO's to keep up with the Bonus of the SOs, you would be losing money.

At 45 you would wouldn't need to replace them to keep with the SO's.

Before then you would.

 

It isn't clear if the OP is just  trying to "cheap  out" by buy level 25 IOs and never replace them.

Sure that would be the cheapest way to do it if they didn't change the level 25 IOs until they hit 50, but I really don't think that "cheaping out" to that level is their goal.

The SOs percentage bonus would keep creeping up to be better if they were upgraded, where the SO's would just stay that same level 25 percentage bonus all the way to 50 until they are replaced.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

@Story Archer go check out ....

 

 

 

[Shred Monkey]

My strategy generally is to use standard SOs until level 22... then I dive into level 25 IOs  (level 20 IOs are significantly worse then SOs).  I continue to use level 25 IOs until I'm level 47 and can use level 50s.  When I do that level 47 respec, I pull all my level 25 IOs out and save them in my base.  This way I not only save buying replacement IOs, (or upgrade costs), but I can even reuse my IOs repeatedly for each new toon.  I don't bother with the 30, 35, 40, and 45 IOs because that would use up too much storage space in my SG base for very tiny bits of increased power for the short period of time I spend leveling up.   

 

I also always use attuned Set IOs where applicable so they level up with you.

[Without_Pause]

21 hours ago, macskull said:

Slotting level 25 or 30 generic IOs has a higher upfront cost than a similar SO but the benefit is that it's a one-time expense and then you never need to worry about it again.

I think the last check on this was 2-3 million for a full build of common level 25s. While yes, that might seem like a lot of money for a new player, it is incredible easy to generate even on a new character. I can do it casually over a weekend by simply pulling common salvage and then common level 50 IO recipes from the market and then selling them to a vendor. Hit 50 and you can cakewalk that amount and more on a night's playing. With some marketing and doing a Posi, a new player can set up multiple characters to hit 50 being slotted this way.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

if you level up the IO's to keep up with the Bonus of the SOs, you would be losing money.

At 45 you would wouldn't need to replace them to keep with the SO's.

Before then you would.

 

It isn't clear if the OP is just  trying to "cheap  out" by buy level 25 IOs and never replace them.

Sure that would be the cheapest way to do it if they didn't change the level 25 IOs until they hit 50, but I really don't think that "cheaping out" to that level is their goal.

The SOs percentage bonus would keep creeping up to be better if they were upgraded, where the SO's would just stay that same level 25 percentage bonus all the way to 50 until they are replaced.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that SOs are more effective at higher levels?

[UltraAlt]

33 minutes ago, macskull said:

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that SOs are more effective at higher levels?

 

 

I'm say that a level 35 SO is better than a level 25 IO.

[macskull]

50 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm say that a level 35 SO is better than a level 25 IO.

Sure, from levels 32 through 35. Before level 32 you can't even slot it so it does nothing for you. As soon as you hit 36 that level 35 SO is now -1 and a level 25 IO is now slightly better, and then once you hit 39 that level 25 IO is now infinitely better since an outleveled SO gives 0% benefit. You can also slot that level 25 IO at level 22 and you're guaranteed that enhancement value forever unlike an SO which needs to be upgraded to maintain that value.

 

I'm also not sure why you're bringing SO level into the discussion because absolute level doesn't matter for SOs, only relative level.

 

EDIT: Updated some numbers, since a level 25 IO is better than a -1 SO.

Edited July 28, 2023 by macskull

[UltraAlt]

28 minutes ago, macskull said:

You can also slot that level 25 IO at level 22 and you're guaranteed that enhancement value forever unlike an SO which needs to be upgraded to maintain that value.

 

And it keeps that same % increase as long as you have it slotted. Just like an SO, it's % can't increase without slotting one at a higher level.

 

 

I'm not trying to argue that SO's don't degrade and need to be replaced before or by 5 levels past. They do.

I'm not trying to argue that IO's  don't stay the % of increase as long as they are slotted. In fact, they have that same level increase if you deslot them. They keep their value regardless.

But when you slot that new SO, it's going to have a higher value than that IO that is 5 or more levels below it. The more levels above the IO, the higher the % the fresh SO is going to above the IO.

 

What I keep saying, is that you want the % for that IO to increase, you have to slot a new one.

IOs cost more than SOs - especially if you try to craft them yourself.

It may seem like an IO is a savings, but it isn't unless you an get a really good deal on an IO.

 

Also if you are trying to keep a higher percentage going, you are going to want upgrade SOs until heading on 40.

It's cheaper to get level 45 SO than it is level 45 IO unless you are going to be market savvy.

 

 

The problem with this chart is that you can get SO's down to level 1 a this point and you can buy SOs at level 5.

Note where it says SO strength exceeds IO strength. 

 

I don't even bother slotting IOs until 45. I slot them that one time and that's it, but I don't play past to 50. I'm capping my characters at 49.

 

There is no need for me to try to explain it any more.

You disagree and that's fine.

[macskull]

20 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't even bother slotting IOs until 45. I slot them that one time and that's it, but I don't play past to 50. I'm capping my characters at 49.

That is absolutely not typical or representative of how most people play the game.

 

I am specifically directing my advice and information toward the OP, who was looking for a way to save money using the IO system. You are correct in that generic IOs are less powerful than a +3 SO until level 40, but if all you care about is the highest enhancement benefit you're paying to upgrade your SOs every single level until level 37 and that is absolutely not cheaper than just slotting generic IOs. The advice already given in this thread says a level 25 generic IO is a little less effective than an even-level SO and a level 30 generic IO is a little more effective. If you're interested in cost the no-brainer move is to start slotting generic IOs at either level 22 or 27.

 

You also mentioned SOs at very low levels, which do exist, but the first 15 or so levels go by so fast that you're throwing money out the window if you're trying to constantly upgrade your SOs. I don't bother slotting anything except drops until around level 20 or so.

Edited July 28, 2023 by macskull

[lemming]

Well, what I do.   If my character is leveling up at a fast pace and that is my normal pace, I'll start slotting in generic IOs at 22-32.   Usually I'm leveling them fairly adhoc without a clear plan, so just filling in the appropriate level IO as they come up.  It's not worth the extra effort to replace with higher level ones.

What usually happens at 50 is a respec and that's when I tend to put in the most thought of sets, etc...  Though sometimes ATOs and some of the procs happens on the journey to 50.   And I tend to have plenty of IOs in storage for this.

 

On characters that are doing a more slow leveling (either because they're doing Praetoria, or I'm doing a hit all the contacts), I'll do SOs at +3, but also fill in sets when I can which tend to be attuned.

[macskull]

That's true, it does depend on leveling speed. From an efficiency/cost standpoint I think the move is to get by on drops and the occasional SO purchase from the AH or a vendor until 22, get a full set of level 25 SOs at level 22 (since leveling starts to slow down in the mid 20s), and then replace them all with generic level 30 IOs once you hit 27. At that point you can just slot any newly gained slots with the highest level generic IO you can slot at the time.

Edited July 28, 2023 by macskull

[Hedgefund2]

SOs at lowbie levels (sub 20) are downright game-breaking and I  can't imagine skipping them unless it's a financial thing.  Lowbie enemies are designed for TO/DO equipped players and the SO jump enables fighting higher level, larger size spawns solo.  If the "money thrown out the window" I spend on SOs from 1-22 (or 27 depending) exceeds 2M I'd be surprised. If it does exceed 2M, then who cares?  That's an infinitesimally small number for most anyone that's played HC from day 1.

[lemming]

Took a quick look at my chart: And yea, a level 40 IO beats any SO.    A level 35 IO is equal to a +2 SO. 30 IO is almost as good as a +0 SO, a 25 IO is better than a -1 SO.

 

One thing of interest, there's only a 5.7% difference between a level 35 IO and a level 50 IO.

On the other hand, a 50+5 is 53% compared to a level 50 at 42.4%.

 

Definitely not a smooth curve in progression for the IOs.

 

And of course, ED complicates it a bit more.   Just makes me feel better about not replacing any level 35 IOs with higher ones until I'm ready for sets

[Herotu]

31 minutes ago, lemming said:

One thing of interest, there's only a 5.7% difference between a level 35 IO and a level 50 IO.

On the other hand, a 50+5 is 53% compared to a level 50 at 42.4%.

A 50+5 what, please, compared to a level 50 what? SO or IO?

Edited July 28, 2023 by Herotu