Quicksand - vital tool or easy skip?

[Onlyasandwich]

I've been revisiting an old Earth/therm build lately, and have come to the point where I think I want to squeeze Quicksand in.

 

On paper, it seems largely redundant with the hard controls Earth has at hand, and the -def is covered in other powers as well. However, there are a few points I see in its favor:

 

• Less obtrusive than cages on teams where the visual effects can be annoying.
• Auto-hit (not a huge advantage with proper slotting, though some situations where useful).
• Another location based aoe I can initiate while out of LoS.
• Casting it at the foot of the nearest mob in a group creates nice clumping, allowing me to more efficiently follow up with my other aoes.

 

What are your thoughts? Do you consider it a must have on your Earth? If so, what other uses have you found for it beyond the above? What would you consider dropping in the attached build in favor of it?

 

I'm thinking Earth's Embrace would be an easy drop, as it would be 1:1 for slotting. Both are one slot wonders. However, the ~300 extra max HP and occasional heal provide some beef to my defense based build that may give vital time to heal back up when something makes it through. Definitely on the edge here!

 

Controller - Earth Control - Thermal Radiation corrected arcane.mbd

 

 

This build's priorities:

• S/L defense softcap.
• High recharge through combination of set bonuses and FFback incorporated in both aoe and ST chain. (note for the sake of totals that FFback powers are toggled on, so detoggle for accuracy on global recharge)
• Spammable ST and aoe chain.
• High slow resist.
• Pay attention to /Therm's team support tools (give love to shields, heals)
• Proccy proc proc where I can proc a meaningful proc or two. Prawk. 

 

In an effort to avoid Ageless and maximize proc potential, this build does rely on Vigor Core for accuracy. End management is tight pre-incarnate, but workable with good management.

 

On an unrelated note, I'd love to swap Arcane bolt for Hurl boulder for thematic reasons. However, I just can't get behind a 2.5 second animation lock for the payoff. Arcane also comes ahead in damage pretty firmly. Do you actually enjoy boulder in your build?

Edited July 25, 2023 by Onlyasandwich

[honoroit]

even if for only the def debuff (25% base defense on controller), which stacks with your other -DEF powers, quicksand is up all the time.

 

your team will appreciate it, even if they dont actively notice that theyre hitting everything.

 

i like it.

[Hedgefund2]

I like Quicksand but from the attached build, I personally don't see what I'd swap out for it.  Not EE because (and this is a "how I roll" thing) I like having an "uh oh" plan B power and EE will probably keep you upright and going more than Quicksand ever would.  At lvl 50 I tend to go entire sessions without using QS.  You'll appreciate it for lowbie SFs/TFs but I wouldn't make the swap.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Hedgefund2

[Frosticus]

Quicksand is great while leveling for sure. 

I'd still use it late game except it has such a slow cast time. If it got out fast like stalag or volcanic, or even earthquake I'd have it down all the time.

 

It does nothing wrong except cast really slowly.

[Psyonico]

15 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Quicksand is great while leveling for sure. 

I'd still use it late game except it has such a slow cast time. If it got out fast like stalag or volcanic, or even earthquake I'd have it down all the time.

 

It does nothing wrong except cast really slowly.

This is very true... The power is really good but *oh God* that cast time!

[Captain Fabulous]

It's a good power. I always take it. Ditch Vengeance.

[Onlyasandwich]

45 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Ditch Vengeance

But muh lotg!

 

An idea worth considering.

[biostem]

I actually take the earth APP on several of my tankers & brutes - not only does their version deal some damage, (unenhanceable though), but it's a great way to keep enemies in range longer.  That being said, I do have it on my earth/pain controller - it's handy to increase the time enemies spend in your various AoEs and out of melee range...

[Uun]

Quicksand is 25% -def. I find it very handy for things like Rikti drones or venged Nemesis.

[Captain Fabulous]

16 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

But muh lotg!

 

An idea worth considering.

It looks like you're potentially already at the recharge cap so I don't think you're going to even notice the loss of one LotG.

[SeraphimKensai]

The minus defense does help, but at end game there's a lot of players with tactics and other tohit buffs that the -def on quicksand might not matter too much. If only the slow on quicksand also slowed recharge like artic air, the. It'd be a must take everytime. Sadly it only prevents flying and jumping and slowing run speed.

 

You also can't enhance the defense so no Achilles proc in it as it only takes slow IOs which is odd because the base power slows down mobs that don't resist it by 90% which is the slow cap out of the box.

[honoroit]

also a 'dont worry, fairy guidebrother is here' announce on your stone/stone/stone tanker types.

 

well for me anyhow.

 

quicksand is good on controller.

 

yes plus plus.

 

things are hard to hit when theres lowbies in farms, or theyre all buffed up to the nth degree and angry.  this, plus other earth control powers, help put a check to that.

[Onlyasandwich]

37 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

recharge cap

That is just the toggled on FFback procs. I only have 55% global recharge outside of hasten and FFback.

[Onlyasandwich]

27 minutes ago, honoroit said:

quicksand is good on controller

 

I definitely like the power, and have enjoyed its benefits on other characters.

 

The question here is more where it stands in comparison to other tools available, and what I could potentially swap, or if indeed a swap is worthy for my build.

 

At higher levels for me the utility is mostly in its ability to get mobs to glob up more easily with creative engagement. At times the -defense will even still be pretty relevant. However, the present build is pretty tight! 

 

Thus far, the considerations are:

• Earth's Embrace. A bit dubious, as this power provides substantial staying power for things that get past my defense.
• Vengeance. Vengeance is actually super strong as we all know when the use case arises. Beyond that, losing the lotg would hurt.
• Swap away from leadership entirely and see if I can sort out my accuracy without tactics. Would likely pick up a pool with two lotg mules (flight, stealth). Not sure how this would work out - may dig on it later. QS helps with accuracy of course, but it is very much less than ideal to rely on it across the board given the animation time. I want my openers to hit reliably.
• Something else? 

 

Not a high stakes question, in any case! The build will work fine without. 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Onlyasandwich

[honoroit]

44 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

 

I definitely like the power, and have enjoyed its benefits on other characters.

 

The question here is more where it stands in comparison to other tools available, and what I could potentially swap, or if indeed a swap is worthy for my build.

 

At higher levels for me the utility is mostly in its ability to get mobs to glob up more easily with creative engagement. At times the -defense will even still be pretty relevant. However, the present build is pretty tight! 

 

Thus far, the considerations are:

• Earth's Embrace. A bit dubious, as this power provides substantial staying power for things that get past my defense.
• Vengeance. Vengeance is actually super strong as we all know when the use case arises. Beyond that, losing the lotg would hurt.
• Swap away from leadership entirely and see if I can sort out my accuracy without tactics. Would likely pick up a pool with two lotg mules (flight, stealth). Not sure how this would work out - may dig on it later. QS helps with accuracy of course, but it is very much less than ideal to rely on it across the board given the animation time. I want my openers to hit reliably.
• Something else? 

 

Not a high stakes question, in any case! The build will work fine without. 

 

 

drop vengance as direct swap.

 

however, if maintaining 5x lotg is a priority:

 

tldr; drop vengance, keep maneuvers, take combat jumping. tactics >>> quicksand

 

ditch leadership and get flight?

 - !!avoid!! you must be on the ground to cast staligmites. pita to trun on and off all the time. its a cost of earth sets for some abilities.

 

 - stealth - its nice, and its a travel power too with infiltration.

 

others:

if you have enough powerpools available in build, Leaping/combat jumping is low end toggle and super useful for combat movement, and slots an lotg.

 

---

 

you can have plenty of accuracy from set bonuses, and if i recall the controller ATOs provide this as part of their sets as a start.

 

you can monitor (in combat attributes) 'last chance to hit' to very closely see if youre missing or not.  i use this to know 'oh, hey honoroit (me), its time to turn on focused accuracy' where thats relevant on a character.

 

good luck, have fun!

Edited July 26, 2023 by honoroit

[Onlyasandwich]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

good luck, have fun!

 

Appreciate it, I have and will!

 

Thank you all for taking the time to review. It's always interesting to me to see how different people value certain powers.

 

For context, I do already have CJ, and my power pools are maxed out. I have worked out a separate build that drops leadership for stealth. This maintains the # of lotgs, but loses a couple percentage points of defense due to the lost opportunity to slot rectified reticle in tactics. There aren't other low slot bonuses for S/L to sub in. With incarnate, most powers are still at max hit chance, but heat exhaustion and melt armor will rely on all the earth def debuffs to max out. This second build does have the benefit of modestly less end consumption as well. Stealth is also pretty useful.

 

Note that, in order to maximize procs and slotting in general, the current build relies on Vigor Core, tactics, and kismet for most of its hit chance beyond native power slotting. Other +acc bonuses would require leaving a ton of damage potential on the table.

 

Just gonna roll as is for now! I don't mind at all dropping out of flight to hit stalagmites. It's easy enough to pop with my binds, and has not been an issue.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Onlyasandwich said:

 

 

• Vengeance. Vengeance is actually super strong as we all know when the use case arises. Beyond that, losing the lotg would hurt.

Not a high stakes question, in any case! The build will work fine without. 

 

This is the exact scenario my earth dom is in!

I've debated it back and for many times. I don't "need" the lotg from veng and a rarely team these days.

Despite that I've been rolling with veng on my build, but I've certainly been tempted to switch QS back into my build for those occasions where choke-points work well as it only makes them better.

 

If AV's didn't run through it like it is beach sand it would be a no-brainer for me even with the extra slow cast.

[Onlyasandwich]

14 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

run through it like it is beach sand

For sure! Maybe even just half the cast time would be enough for a slam dunk. I guess it's still an overall good power. The fact that I'm waffling simply means there are interesting choices to be made.

[Onlyasandwich]

I've been iterating on this a bit, and came to an interesting compromise that might make sense.

 

I've dropped leadership for stealth. This keeps my lotg's, but creates an accuracy problem with the loss of tactics. However, this is mitigated by a few things:

• Most powers are still at max hit chance anyhow.
• Those that aren't will be helped by -def from the primary. 
• The Gaussian in Forge will proc nearly every time, and I can pre-cast it on stoney to guarantee a hit when needed. This is useful for personal damage generally speaking as well.
• The powers that are short on hit chance (really just heat ex) are mostly used in longer encounters, where the debuffs are likely to be in effect.

 

This build also runs lighter on end, and has the extra utility of personal and team stealth when needed, as well as of course the use of quicksand. Creative slotting still manages to just eke out S/L softcap.

 

Rune takes the place of Earth's embrace as my emergency power, and also frees up a mule slot so the Gaussian fits in. Now I have a reactive tool if I get mezzed as well.

 

Controller - Earth Control - Thermal Radiation corrected arcane stealth vers.mbd

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Onlyasandwich

[Doomguide2005]

      While I'd hesitate to call it vital, after all Earth suffers a richness of control options I will say I've never skipped it either.  I also always use it as a one slot wonder typically dropping a range IO into that base slot.  It's crazy solo and or at low levels how often the smidge more range is the difference between firing while open to return fire and remaining tucked around the corner immune to a return alpha.  Slow is also often a very effective soft control vs mobs that are or can use protection vs hard controls (Hold, Stun, Immob etc.) such as Cimerorans (and also incidentally helps counter their defense self buffing)