Third pool defenses

[Techwright]

I've a character in the mid-20s now that I was surprised to discover was squishier than probably any other character I've played.  There's not really any defenses in the first and second power sets, at least nothing that provides a designated protection.  He's pretty much the "best defense is a strong offense" type.  I'd like to know what's probably the strongest minimal choice(s) from the third column:

 

1. Combat Jumping

2. Tough & Weave together

3. Maneuvers

4. Other?

 

I deliberately didn't mention the archetype or power sets because I'd like to look at this from an any character situation, if possible, just in case I see something like this on a future character.

[carroto]

Well by the numbers it's #2 obviously.  You get more defense and the resistances will certainly help, too.  In practice it's usually both #1 and #2 for me.

[Psyonico]

Maneuvers provides more defense than anything other than weave

 

Combat Jumping, hover, and suppressed stealth provide the same defense numbers (but with varying endurance costs)

[Captain Fabulous]

All 3 honestly. And then the two +3% DEF IOs you can put in Tough. Hover is a substitute for CJ if you're a flyer. Plop a LoTG in each with an end redux in Tough, Weave, and Maneuvers and call it a day. None of them are worth slotting for +DEF beyond the LoTG. In theory you could have CJ, Hover, and Stealth, with a LoTG in each for about another 7% defense (depending upon AT), but it's really not worth giving up so many slots.

[Onlyasandwich]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

None of them are worth slotting

Weave is definitely worth an extra slot or two if you are building defense in earnest. It has a better shot per defense return than most IO bonuses you can chase outside the uniques.

[Captain Fabulous]

45 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Weave is definitely worth an extra slot or two if you are building defense in earnest. It has a better shot per defense return than most IO bonuses you can chase outside the uniques.

Depending upon AT, Weave with level 50 defense IOs is only an extra 0.8925%-1.275% defense for 1 slot, 1.7395%-2.485% for 2 slots, and 2.0468%-2.924% for 3 slots. It's really not worth it. I admit I do have a few builds where I've put 2 LoTGs into Weave (one extra slot), but it's only on characters that gets a 4.25%-5% base. Most of the time you just don't have enough extra slots to give up for ~1% defense each.

[Snarky]

You want to look at a comprehensive build strategy. It doesnt have to be perfect, but getting substantial s/l or ranged defense, depending on at/style can help a lot

[Ashington]

what about patron defense powers or the blue side powers you can later unlock?

[Uun]

If you're looking for something stronger but more situational, there's Unleash Potential (Force of Will) or Rune of Protection (Sorcery). 

[Onlyasandwich]

23 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Weave with level 50 defense IOs is only an extra 0.8925%-1.275% defense for 1 slot,

~.75 - 1 defense to all per slot is a pretty good return compared to most set bonuses when you're chasing softcap, especially on an AT without a solid defense foundation.

 

Often such builds are muling a whole power mostly for the 3.75 defense bonus that comes with it. Ideally one leverages this in powers where the enhancement value itself is also a primary investment, but sometimes this aspect is marginal compared to the defense bonus.

 

Absolutely the Uniques and pursuing defense bonuses from sets that usefully enhance other powers is the first step. However, you inevitably start looking for low-hanging fruit to round things out, and 1-2 extra slots in Weave is often the efficient answer.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Onlyasandwich

[MoonSheep]

proper positioning and mob strategy is also a very effective survival technique, much more so than any IO set or power pool in my opinion

 

unless you’re the lead tank for a team, then that goes out the window a bit 😛

[tidge]

On 7/28/2023 at 7:54 PM, Techwright said:

I've a character in the mid-20s now that I was surprised to discover was squishier than probably any other character I've played.  There's not really any defenses in the first and second power sets, at least nothing that provides a designated protection.

 

Mid 20s can be tough: Not only do enemies get a better variety of attacks, but DfB/Beginner's Luck expire, and P2W Boosts become pricey. You can also run Drowning in Blood to get some boosts that continue until level 30. My thoughts on the actual question:

 

When power choices are tight: I typically pick something like Infiltration. I like to have an actual travel power, and it can be used as a mule for Defense pieces (including, eventually the Scaling Resistance piece) and Universal Travel pieces. I find Defense to be a better first choice than Resistance. For a power that will be toggled on most of the time, I will slot -/Endurance Reduction (for Infiltration this is either Travel, or Defense).

 

If I am not otherwise going into power pools by the mid-20s (*1), I think ---/Tough/Weave, slotting Tough with Defense globals (and not toggling it on), and then Weave as a Mule (with Defense/End slotting too) is the best choice for me. I don't usually pick up any other Defense toggles until much later (*1, again)

 

Another personal preference is that I usually don't go out of my way to take the Leadership pool, except for Defenders/VEATs/Tankers/Masterminds. Tankers is only because I generally expect some teammates to be close to the Tanker; Mastermind is only for the henchmen (level shifts!). Otherwise if I have room for it as a fourth power pool, I may take Maneuvers as a mule power at level 49. I'm not ignorant of how the extra Defense can help teams in higher level content... it's more that I don't like relying on so many extra toggles hit some arbitrary personal 'cap'.

 

(*1) Now that Homecoming has lowered the levels at which primary/secondary power choices can be made, I find that for my preference (playing sub-45-content) I now only have about 3 (sometimes 4) "open" (non-primary, non-secondary) power picks before level 26. Prior to this change, there were many more 'gaps' so *I* found it easier to slip in a -/Tough/Weave on more characters. I believe that having the higher-tier powers available earlier has mitigated my 'need' for higher defenses/resistances earlier.

[FupDup]

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

When power choices are tight: I typically pick something like Infiltration. I like to have an actual travel power, and it can be used as a mule for Defense pieces (including, eventually the Scaling Resistance piece) and Universal Travel pieces. I find Defense to be a better first choice than Resistance. For a power that will be toggled on most of the time, I will slot -/Endurance Reduction (for Infiltration this is either Travel, or Defense).

Infiltration's defense bonus is completely lost if you engage in combat, so it really shouldn't be taken as a survival tool. It's just a travel power/mule. 

 

If you want the stealth aspect then the actual Stealth power at least provides as much defense as Hover or Combat Jumping in combat, but at a pretty high endurance cost admittedly. And it gives a tiny bit larger of a stealth radius than Infil. 

[Uun]

2 hours ago, FupDup said:

Infiltration's defense bonus is completely lost if you engage in combat, so it really shouldn't be taken as a survival tool. It's just a travel power/mule. 

 

If you want the stealth aspect then the actual Stealth power at least provides as much defense as Hover or Combat Jumping in combat, but at a pretty high endurance cost admittedly. And it gives a tiny bit larger of a stealth radius than Infil. 

If you're using Infiltration as a travel power, you can get full invisibility by slotting a Celerity or Unbounded Leap +stealth IO in Infiltration. 

[FupDup]

5 minutes ago, Uun said:

If you're using Infiltration as a travel power, you can get full invisibility by slotting a Celerity or Unbounded Leap +stealth IO in Infiltration. 

I would rather put one of those procs in Sprint so that Infil can mule a defense proc. Best of both worlds. 

[carroto]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

I usually don't go out of my way to take the Leadership pool

 

It's pretty much required on ranged characters with a snipe if you want your quick snipe to do full damage.  Kismet + Tactics is enough to get close (but not quite there) on most ATs.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, carroto said:

 

It's pretty much required on ranged characters with a snipe if you want your quick snipe to do full damage.  Kismet + Tactics is enough to get close (but not quite there) on most ATs.

 

I can put the Kismet piece in whatever defensive toggle, at that point I call it quits. Not every ranged character has a Snipe, and if I have to keep Tactics on (another toggle) I end up paying the full Endurance cost for whatever part of my attack chain is using a Fast Snipe. Build Ups (and the equivalents) already puts the bonus above the +22%, albeit for a short time... but I'm generally hoarding the Blue bar. I don't doubt that keeping Tactics running can work (or just grabbing it as a doorway to Vengeance), but for me it almost always comes down to picking it instead of another LotG Mule. YMMV, but I don't think Tactics is going to help the OP's issue.

[WumpusRat]

On 7/28/2023 at 6:03 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

None of them are worth slotting for +DEF beyond the LoTG.

If you don't have any defense to begin with, then yeah, slotting them for defense isn't really worth much. However the more you stack on, the better it gets.

Generally weave and maneuvers end up with 2-3 slots, depending on what I'm aiming for. One lotg and then a def/end, just to lower my end costs a bit. I tend to run CJ in most of my builds as well both for protection from immobilize (if the character doesn't have any other protections) and for the added maneuverability. 

 

CJ I usually 3-slot, just to hold a shield wall +resist, kismet +to hit, and reactive defense scaling resist. If I can't fit it anywhere else, I'll add another slot and toss in a winter's gift 20% slow resist as well.