Lockouts, savage melee/assault, psy melee

[WindDemon21]

Can we PLEASE get rid of these dumb lockouts, especially on all savage melee/assaults, but also definitely psy melee too. Use up the blood stacks/insight sure, but not lockout. It's a terrible and annoying mechanic. Especially when you're counting on that end reduction and rech from the blood stacks on your build too.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

is there a way to upvote something twice?

[Greycat]

Can we add Momentum to that? Sure, there's a click that'll give you Momentum, but I've lost count of the number of times I've JUST BARELY taken more time getting from one group to another, tried to use an attack... and it's greyed out because momentum dropped. 

 

(I kind of hate these sorts of mechanics.)

[kelika2]

Yes.

[Ashington]

Yes

[SeraphimKensai]

I'm not the biggest fan of the lockout mechanics myself. I'm curious to see what testing would reveal if lockout mechanics were removed how that would affect things like pylon/trapdoor times.

[nihilii]

14 hours ago, Greycat said:

Can we add Momentum to that? Sure, there's a click that'll give you Momentum, but I've lost count of the number of times I've JUST BARELY taken more time getting from one group to another, tried to use an attack... and it's greyed out because momentum dropped. 

 

(I kind of hate these sorts of mechanics.)

It's brutal. I know many people handle this fine, but for some reason it breaks my brain and I can sometimes sit for a couple seconds before I find my rhythm again.

I'd happily settle for the Momentum-specific powers doing half of their damage if used outside of Momentum, or whatever.

[SeraphimKensai]

5 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I'd happily settle for the Momentum-specific powers doing half of their damage if used outside of Momentum.

I'm not opposed to this idea. It allows the player to choose how they engage.

[WindDemon21]

15 hours ago, Greycat said:

Can we add Momentum to that? Sure, there's a click that'll give you Momentum, but I've lost count of the number of times I've JUST BARELY taken more time getting from one group to another, tried to use an attack... and it's greyed out because momentum dropped. 

 

(I kind of hate these sorts of mechanics.)

Same, though i find the issue FAR more on those powers you can't use without it, ie follow through and whirling smash. They're not so crazy they would need damage reduced, just give them the longer cast time outside of momentum. The benefits of having momentum are there though so i wouldn't say I'd want those powers nerfed to remove momentum, but like, defensive sweep/crushing blow could have shorter cast times to make them more start-friendly at least too.

 

But especially these dumb lockouts on savage and psy melee, just don't need to be there. Just use up the buff only.

Edited August 1, 2023 by WindDemon21

[OverkillEngine]

I'm down for at least considering any possible changes that would result in less disruptions to the flow of combat.

Ideally, any changes would work similar to how Stalkers are able to utilize AS at need if it is off cool-down, but the system rewards the player doing it "correctly".

[biostem]

I agree with removing the lockout for insight in Psi Melee, because it is kind of random.  As for Savage Melee, because powers either grant blood frenzy or consume it once you have 5 stacks, it adds an element of strategy as to when and if you consume said stacks, and with how good bloody frenzy's buff is, that seems like a fair tradeoff...

[Saiyajinzoningen]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:21 PM, Greycat said:

Can we add Momentum to that? Sure, there's a click that'll give you Momentum, but I've lost count of the number of times I've JUST BARELY taken more time getting from one group to another, tried to use an attack... and it's greyed out because momentum dropped. 

 

(I kind of hate these sorts of mechanics.)

 

I think the purpose of these mechanics is to provide some degree of strategy to a game that's already a button mashing frenzy.

I used to hate rage drop with a passion, now after much trial and error i realize how boring SS would be without it.

But this game has gone through multiple rage crash overhauls until we have what we have today.

These lockout mechanics definitely deserve some attention.

From a technical standpoint how much do the mechanics from SM or PM differ from Street justice?

if there isn't much of a difference, why do they have lockouts but SJ doesn't'?

(not advocating for SJ to get a lockout btw, if SJ gets a lockout as a result of this post @Greycat accepts all responsibility.)😉

[TheZag]

Ive never done the math,  but i made my attack chain so it consumes blood frenzy at 4 stacks to stop me from getting locked out.  I can still get locked out on occasion because of a miss though.

 

I would be interested if the increase in damage from 4 to 5 stacks is more than the loss of damage and other buffs over the lockout period.  I went to start getting numbers once and then i realized it sucks to try that on a brute because of fury.  Ive been thinking of rolling it as a tank to have both and then i could run some consistent numbers.

 

[biostem]

On 8/6/2023 at 11:57 AM, TheZag said:

Ive never done the math,  but i made my attack chain so it consumes blood frenzy at 4 stacks to stop me from getting locked out.

I like to put a non-savage melee attack in my rotation specifically to allow me to drop below 5 stacks, so I can then use the other attacks that would normally cause a lock-out, without doing so.  The recharge buff is way more useful, IMHO, than the bit of extra damage or other effect you get from consuming the stacks...

[WindDemon21]

On 8/6/2023 at 7:35 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 

I think the purpose of these mechanics is to provide some degree of strategy to a game that's already a button mashing frenzy.

I used to hate rage drop with a passion, now after much trial and error i realize how boring SS would be without it.

But this game has gone through multiple rage crash overhauls until we have what we have today.

These lockout mechanics definitely deserve some attention.

From a technical standpoint how much do the mechanics from SM or PM differ from Street justice?

if there isn't much of a difference, why do they have lockouts but SJ doesn't'?

(not advocating for SJ to get a lockout btw, if SJ gets a lockout as a result of this post @Greycat accepts all responsibility.)😉

Strategy is trying to use those stacks to their benefit, but nothing is worse, especially on savages, getting locked out or REALLY interrupting/janky'ing your attack chaining because you don't want to deal with the lockout. Also really makes trying to use the extra radius awkward, but especially if you're trying to use those buffs too but don't want to just, well, DEAL with how terrible trying to stay around the lockout is...

[WindDemon21]

TBH, while i like the benefit of the buffs, not ONCE have i ever though of the blood stacks as "too good" to have that lockout. Especially when, in any normal play, they get consumed, you are never permanently at the max buffs. Your average stacks across a battle are maybe about 2.5 on average to keep in mind, and that's if there was no blood lockout at all.

 

I'd much rather have there just be no finishers, and the buffs just be there for you that build up in more of a rage-type fashion or something.

Edited August 9, 2023 by WindDemon21

[biostem]

23 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

TBH, while i like the benefit of the buffs, not ONCE have i ever though of the blood stacks as "too good" to have that lockout. Especially when, in any normal play, they get consumed, you are never permanently at the max buffs. Your average stacks across a battle are maybe about 2.5 on average to keep in mind, and that's if there was no blood lockout at all.

 

I'd much rather have there just be no finishers, and the buffs just be there for you that build up in more of a rage-type fashion or something.

Then we have vastly different experiences, because my savage melee characters routinely have to use other attacks or hold off for a few moments for a stack to drop, because I am at 5 stacks more often than not, and prefer having them than consuming them and getting locked out.  Maybe change up your approach a bit?  Each stack is about a 4% recharge buff and a 6% endurance reduction buff - that's a tremendous buff across the board!

[WindDemon21]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

Then we have vastly different experiences, because my savage melee characters routinely have to use other attacks or hold off for a few moments for a stack to drop, because I am at 5 stacks more often than not, and prefer having them than consuming them and getting locked out.  Maybe change up your approach a bit?  Each stack is about a 4% recharge buff and a 6% endurance reduction buff - that's a tremendous buff across the board!

So you're basically agreeing with me and many others, just in a different way. Point being how annoying it is breaking the flow of attacking to have to micromanage those stacks because they lockout and you don't want to lose/lock out of them. It may not bother you as much, but it clearly does to many others, and always just makes any savage character just a plain hassle to deal with, hence why the stacks should just get consumed, not lockout.

 

While nice to have too, that 10%ish average rech as mentioned isn't much to an even medium finished build. The end reduction is more significant, and plays a much bigger role to why the lockout is just so annoying. Especially meaning you aren't/can't use your main aoe in battle because of that that works out often times. It's much less an issue on single targets but does still occur, but the aoe is always the more significant annoyance trying to use it but dealing with the lockouts as you usually use other attakcs in between meaning it'll often be at the full stack, but then you can't use it cause you don't want to get locked out of the blood stacks. It's quite absurd dealing with constantly, when the lockouts shouldn't really exist there at all to begin with.

 

Mind you, those bonus buffs, are part of savage melee/assault. The set itself has almost no other mitigation like other sets have, not any real big heavy hitting ST attacks, and minimal debuffs as well. Those blood stacks ARE the tradeoff within the set. So to be constantly locked out of them for 15 seconds at a time is just absurd.

 

And we're not even getting into how absurdly underpowered hemmorhage is on S-melee evne at a full 5 stacks..

Edited August 9, 2023 by WindDemon21

[biostem]

Just now, WindDemon21 said:

So you're basically agreeing with me and many others, just in a different way. Point being how annoying it is breaking the flow of attacking to have to micromanage those stacks because they lockout and you don't want to lose/lock out of them. It may not bother you as much, but it clearly does to many others, and always just makes any savage character just a plain hassle to deal with, hence why the stacks should just get consumed, not lockout.

You're missing the point - I am making a conscious decision to retain the stacks instead of consuming them for the added effect.  Someone else may make the opposite valuation.  The ability to do both is great!  Learning to modify your play to utilize the effect in a way that best suits YOUR play style is key.

 

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

While nice to have too, that 10%ish average rech as mentioned isn't much to an even medium finished build. The end reduction is more significant, and plays a much bigger role to why the lockout is just so annoying. Especially meaning you aren't/can't use your main aoe in battle because of that that works out often times. It's much less an issue on single targets but does still occur, but the aoe is always the more significant annoyance trying to use it but dealing with the lockouts as you usually use other attakcs in between meaning it'll often be at the full stack, but then you can't use it cause you don't want to get locked out of the blood stacks. It's quite absurd dealing with constantly, when the lockouts shouldn't really exist there at all to begin with.

For me, it's more like 16-20% recharge.  Consider that's the same recharge buff as  a dedicated power like SR's quickness, but without needing to dedicate a power pick, and that's not counting the additional end reduction - practically an SO's worth in EVERY power.  That is a tremendous advantage requiring no other investment.  You bet it's worthy of some downside!

 

6 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Mind you, those bonus buffs, are part of savage melee/assault. The set itself has ZERO other mitigation like other sets have, not any real big heavy hitting ST attacks, and minimal debuffs as well. Those blood stacks ARE the tradeoff within the set. So to be constantly locked out of them for 15 seconds at a time is just absurd.

There's a knockdown, a slow, and not every melee set has other mitigation abilities, either, (fire melee for instance), means that the set is just fine.  Heck, it even has an AoE gap-closer/teleport with a relatively short cooldown.  If I could level any complaint against savage melee, it's the lack of an attack that deals hard-hitting up-front damage instead of a DoT.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

You're missing the point - I am making a conscious decision to retain the stacks instead of consuming them for the added effect.  Someone else may make the opposite valuation.  The ability to do both is great!  Learning to modify your play to utilize the effect in a way that best suits YOUR play style is key.

Actually as i was explaining, in trying to leverage/not constantly be locked out of the stacks, it actually SEVERELY limits your play, which is the point all of us are annoyed by.

 

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

For me, it's more like 16-20% recharge.  Consider that's the same recharge buff as  a dedicated power like SR's quickness, but without needing to dedicate a power pick, and that's not counting the additional end reduction - practically an SO's worth in EVERY power.  That is a tremendous advantage requiring no other investment.  You bet it's worthy of some downside!

For most people, this isn't the case, especially with lockouts, but more to the point, even without them, the average stacks you're going to have unless completely specifically not using finishers, which is mostly going to only be savage melee in the single target right now cause of how bad hemorrhage is, is well below the max, and closer to that 2.5ish that i mentioned earlier.

 

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

There's a knockdown, a slow, and not every melee set has other mitigation abilities, either, (fire melee for instance), means that the set is just fine.  Heck, it even has an AoE gap-closer/teleport with a relatively short cooldown.  If I could level any complaint against savage melee, it's the lack of an attack that deals hard-hitting up-front damage instead of a DoT.

On melee, a 2/3s chance knockdown on pretty much your slowest attack is not that much mitigation. The slows, are only to movement speed, so when especially you're in melee anyway to attack, that means it provides zero mitigation. Assault on doms is better with call hawk having knockdown, but that doesn't mean that the lockouts aren't actually worse on doms since it's also a finisher that uses up the stacks.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Actually as i was explaining, in trying to leverage/not constantly be locked out of the stacks, it actually SEVERELY limits your play, which is the point all of us are annoyed by.

Having the OPTION to consume or not consume the stacks is NOT a limitation.

 

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

For most people, this isn't the case, especially with lockouts, but more to the point, even without them, the average stacks you're going to have unless completely specifically not using finishers, which is mostly going to only be savage melee in the single target right now cause of how bad hemorrhage is, is well below the max, and closer to that 2.5ish that i mentioned earlier.

If you want the stacks, gear your play around that.  If you want the bonus effect from consuming them, then tailor your play accordingly.  Not being able to eat your cake and have it is only an issue if you think you should get all the bonuses with no tradeoff.  Just slot for recharge and end redux if you want that without having to put any effort in.

 

5 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

On melee, a 2/3s chance knockdown on pretty much your slowest attack is not that much mitigation. The slows, are only to movement speed, so when especially you're in melee anyway to attack, that means it provides zero mitigation. Assault on doms is better with call hawk having knockdown, but that doesn't mean that the lockouts aren't actually worse on doms since it's also a finisher that uses up the stacks.

As is the case for other melee sets, so savage melee is not unique in this regard. 

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Having the OPTION to consume or not consume the stacks is NOT a limitation.

It is with the blood buffs being the main effect of the set and why it has almost no mitigation/debuffs/buffs etc on its own.

 

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

As is the case for other melee sets, so savage melee is not unique in this regard. 

Other sets get other benefits, It is fairly unique in that it is about the only benefit of a secondary effect in the set beyond the blood stacks there other sets have multiple other properties that they bring, which is why the stacks are so important and need to not have a lockout.

 

Bottom line, you may not have an issue with it, but many of us do, and the lockout doesn't need to be there. The set would not be OP with the lockouts removed, and it certainly would not negatively effect anyone playing the set by having the lockouts removed.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

the lockout doesn't need to be there. The set would not be OP with the lockouts removed

The buff doesn't "need" to be there, either, and if you don't consider a 20% recharge buff and a 30% end cost reduction to be good without needing to pick up any other powers, then I don't know what to tell you... 

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

The buff doesn't "need" to be there, either, and if you don't consider a 20% recharge buff and a 30% end cost reduction to be good without needing to pick up any other powers, then I don't know what to tell you... 

And again, that woudln't permanently be there as you're using up those stacks. *smacks forehead*

 

And too good, no, as mentioned by the lack of mitigation etc that the set lacks compared to others as well. Those stacks ARE the draw to the set, so it's terribly dumb to be locked out of them.

Edited August 9, 2023 by WindDemon21

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

And again, that woudln't permanently be there as you're using up those stacks. *smacks forehead*

Which is a CHOICE you, the player, can make whether to use or not.  Use them?  Lose the buff.  Don't use them, keep it.  Easy as.

 

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

And too good, no, as mentioned by the lack of mitigation etc that the set lacks compared to others as well.

Give me a specific example of another set's mitigation that you believe to be better than a global 20% recharge & 30% end redux buff.  Even then, just play those other sets, then...

Edited August 9, 2023 by biostem