Sapping: Defender vs Corruptor?

[biostem]

I have a kin/elec defender which is quite good at "sapping" enemies.  The key, IMO, is stacking -end, -rec, and -rech/slow effects to really maximize the end product.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

If you assume 370% rech the Sent will recharge in 24s rather than 30s. IMHO either way you split it the difference is sensible, close to 2x. The power is up for every alpha and syncs with your Charge Up perfectly (which also increases end drain, these days).

 

TBH, I'm not dying on the Sent > Fender hill as I don't have strong experience with the defender, I am mostly trying to rationalize Frosticus' reply knowing it works well on Sentinels.

But as they said, you have to look at it from a 10 target stand point. A Defender can target 16 with SC.

 

I'm also not saying you can't get 370% Recharge, but that's really high. Even my Time characters get 230% at most for global.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Without_Pause

[nihilii]

I was trying to go by your numbers: 170s / 46s is 3.7, so at equivalent recharge 90s / 3.7 is 24.5s for the Sentinel version.

[Without_Pause]

I accidently did 140 versus 170, so that's where the differences lie. 

[Zect]

7 hours ago, Gentoo said:

Doesn't having high DPS make the end drain redundant, becuase as you say the red goes down faster than the blue?

 

Coh over the years has become increasingly focused on DPS to the exclusion of everything else. Bringing substantial DPS capacity in addition to draining means that when you are on fast-moving, well-armored teams that don't need draining as mitigation, or when facing foes where draining is not effective (that's most AV's - they nerfed draining AV's in i27p3) you still contribute substantially.

 

Of course, this is just my recommendation. You may not team a lot or you may not want to dps for a variety of reasons including concept. I know some people are still satisfied with their elec trollers who take a minute and a half to kill a spawn of council in 2023 - though I wouldn't consider that high performing.

[Frosticus]

6 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

But as they said, you have to look at it from a 10 target stand point. A Defender can target 16 with SC.

 

 

On  a defender a fully enhanced Short Circuit with charge up and agility radial will "only" sap a lvl 54 for 71%. 

Adding in similarly slotted ball lightning will up the total to 85%.

So they need other ways to get that spawn fully drained, or else they are waiting for an aoe to cycle while they get pummeled.

They can juggle powerboost, clarion and their nuke, or they can look for an aoe drain in their primary (which are somewhat limited).

 

Otherwise the fact they are hitting 16 targets is not very significant. 10 completely drained enemies is better than 16 mostly drained enemies from a mitigation standpoint because it is so binary.

 

*As a reference point elec/em blasters have the same issue. Fully enhanced+agility+charge up+ powerboosted short circuit "only" saps lvl 54s for 73%.

 

Sentinels just cycle thunderous blast and short circuit every mob.

Properly slotted that will flatline a group of 10 lvl 54's in less than 7 seconds. And they do it again for the very next spawn. Zero end and zero recovery.

If they want they can add a secondary like elec/ea/ice for a fast recharging powersink clone. 

 

From a single target perspective:

A sentinel has less drain and -recovery in every attack, but they have vulnerability which debuffs endurance resistance by 15% and ignores level scaling.

So facing a lvl 54 (+3 con) defender recovery debuff drops to 81.25% (unslotted) per attack

A sentinel facing a lvl 54 has their recovery debuffs drop to 65%, but they can debuff by 15% resistance which brings it up very close to the defender at 74.75% (unslotted) per attack. 

 

As long as you are ok with 10 targets their ability to shut them down over and over again is unparalleled in terms of ease and potency. 

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

Slowing enemies to a crawl, reducing their recharge time, debuffing their regeneration, endurance recovery, damage, defense and resistance, while also offering defensive shields, resistances, Stealth, and a Max HP buff for allies?

 

Why yes, you do want to play Cold Domination. 🥶 Pair it with a Electric Blast and Mu Villain Epic Pool and you'll be draining in style. 

 

At the same time, all these extra effects are beside the point. More damage is better than anything else when the goal is only to take a health bar from full to empty. 

[Ringo]

It's Elec Blast/Thermal for sapping #1

 

I'll try to find the thread when I'm off my phone

[Ringo]

Here's the thread, the post by tomgreen has the build:

 

 

Basically -recovery is what makes being a sapper work and Heat Exhaustion is the power you want for that

 

Bonus points due to the Shocked mechanic making sappers hit harder

 

Added:  and it's -recovery that allows you to sap AVs and GMs.  Taking away their end is hard, but keeping their end away is impossible without constant -end spam or decent -recovery

Edited September 26, 2023 by Ringo
Speelibg

[Greenbone]

@Without_Pause, any update on the Elec/Elec Controller versus Defender preference? I am considering the same right now, though @Frosticus makes a good case for a Sentinel, too.

[Without_Pause]

11 minutes ago, Greenbone said:

@Without_Pause, any update on the Elec/Elec Controller versus Defender preference? I am considering the same right now, though @Frosticus makes a good case for a Sentinel, too.

No. Primarily due to working on other characters although I got the one T3ed. I also need to work on builds, and End Mod heavy builds for slotting come across as less exciting due to the bonuses they get. The Defender is 28, and I'm still going, "Yeah, I have no plan for this." I think a safe pick is to go Defender because blasting and getting the Shock aspect is easier to see and understand. Elec control is a bit more wonky. Its main fast recharging AoE is a sleep, and two other powers chain so it is far more subtle. 

 

You pick a Sentinel if your primary thing is End Drain, you care less about support, and to be frank, you get an armor. I have a level 50 Sent who I will continue to play around with, but I just don't find the AT all that engaging.

[Greenbone]

Just now, Without_Pause said:

No. Primarily due to working on other characters although I got the one T3ed. I also need to work on builds, and End Mod heavy builds for slotting come across as less exciting due to the bonuses they get. The Defender is 28, and I'm still going, "Yeah, I have no plan for this." I think a safe pick is to go Defender because blasting and getting the Shock aspect is easier to see and understand. Elec control is a bit more wonky. Its main fast recharging AoE is a sleep, and two other powers chain so it is far more subtle. 

 

You pick a Sentinel if your primary thing is End Drain, you care less about support, and to be frank, you get an armor. I have a level 50 Sent who I will continue to play around with, but I just don't find the AT all that engaging.

 

Thank you. Honestly, I never found a Sentinel interesting either. And haven't played Defenders much, always preferring Controllers. Any recommendations on a controller-y Defender? I'm thinking /elec or /seismic would be interesting secondaries.

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, Greenbone said:

 

Thank you. Honestly, I never found a Sentinel interesting either. And haven't played Defenders much, always preferring Controllers. Any recommendations on a controller-y Defender? I'm thinking /elec or /seismic would be interesting secondaries.

I would start to list ones, but then I felt like the list kept growing to where a shorter list might be ones which don't work. You want ones which ideally play in melee as you will be there with SC and offer -Rec/-End. Added bonus for anything with actual controls. 

[Frosticus]

This is with drain psyche slotted for 71.3% end mod

= -856.65% recovery

So the equivalent of about 4 heat exhaustions

 

Most AV's have 2 x as much recovery as the pylon.

A +3 (lvl 54) AV would decrease the debuff even more. 87% resistance instead of 85% and level scaling difference of 65% effectiveness.

 

Takes a pylon from 13.34 end/sec down to 3.33 end/sec

 

You'd need approx:

1150% -recovery to flatline the pylon

2300% -recovery to flatline an AV

3600% -recovery to flatline a lvl 54 AV

 

[Without_Pause]

I've long held the idea that End drain on AVs is largely pointless. In today's meta of running level 54 content? (chuckles)

[Frosticus]

Ya most AVs recover ~26 end/sec and have a pool of 800 endurance.

 

As mentioned earlier, sapping can still be very valuable against EBs and lower, even at lvl 54. But for AVs you should probably have some other tricks at your disposal.

[Without_Pause]

For AVs, you want -Regen and lots of it which makes for why Cold/elec would be a good pairing. 

[SeraphimKensai]

I'm a big fan of sappers and have quite a few:

• Elec/kin corruptor
• Elec/cold troller
• Elec/poison troller
• Dark miasma/elec defender
• Rad/elec defender
• Elec/fire sentinel
• Elec/psi domi

As others have said -end really shines with -recov. For that reason the elec/psi domi is really great at sapping. That said I find it fun to pair the sapping effect of elec with other types of debuffs as well. Elec/kin corruptors can be absolutely beastly. One of my fav def pair is my dark/elec def, that has hopped in as an emergency tank on some one-two star ASFs as that build has provoke. My rad/elec unused back on live for 1v1 pvp matches and would absolutely shred people not expecting to get debuffed out the ass.

[SwitchFade]

If you want to sap, kin/elec defender 

[Greenbone]

On 9/28/2023 at 12:59 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

I'm a big fan of sappers and have quite a few:

• Elec/kin corruptor
• Elec/cold troller
• Elec/poison troller
• Dark miasma/elec defender
• Rad/elec defender
• Elec/fire sentinel
• Elec/psi domi

As others have said -end really shines with -recov. For that reason the elec/psi domi is really great at sapping. That said I find it fun to pair the sapping effect of elec with other types of debuffs as well. Elec/kin corruptors can be absolutely beastly. One of my fav def pair is my dark/elec def, that has hopped in as an emergency tank on some one-two star ASFs as that build has provoke. My rad/elec unused back on live for 1v1 pvp matches and would absolutely shred people not expecting to get debuffed out the ass.

 

My Elec/Dark Corruptor is my new favorite alt, and top 3 of my 100+! Incredible combo and fun. But serious endurance issues I am trying to figure out right now.