Sapping: Defender vs Corruptor?

[Gentoo]

According to Mids Defenders don't get any higher values over Corrupters for draining the blue?

 

If that's so, is there any reason to play Poison/Elec over Elec/Poison as far as sapping goes?

 

The poison trap (to prevent blue regain) seems the same too.

 

Is Elec Blast just plain superior in every way on a Corruptor?

 

 

[Gentoo]

On further look... it seems maybe HOmecoming changed this? Defenders have higher drain values showing in the character creator.

[Captain Fabulous]

Defender debuffs have always been higher than Corruptors, including end drain.

[wRECk69]

If you look at CoD (https://cod.uberguy.net/), you will see that Defenders have a higher endurance drain modifier than corruptors.  I hope this helps!

[Frosticus]

Unless it has been fixed the -recovery of poison trap from poison doesn't work.

 

The -recovery only lasts for a split second.

[Gentoo]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Unless it has been fixed the -recovery of poison trap from poison doesn't work.

 

The -recovery only lasts for a split second.

 

Well that is a disappointment.

 

What would you say is the best "Sapper" build other than electricity control?

[Gentoo]

I notice that endurance drain is marked as percentage based, whereas damage is raw numbers, so does that mean endurance drain is particularly useful at fighting enemies higher level than yourself and really bad with lower level stuff?

[Without_Pause]

An Elec/elec Defender is likely the best sapper due to the all of the -Recovery tools it has. The issue with end drain is how little of end a target needs to still pull off an attack. Granted, that might still be lesser attacks, and some AVs simply can be really annoying to drain or simply won't be drained enough for it to matter. I currently am trying out a Defender and Controller versions and seeing which one I like the best in the end.

[honoroit]

while advice is 'correct' - defender having higher base values etc.

 

it just doesnt, practically, work.  you will not be a malta sapper, no matter what you do with ANY elec combo.

 

elec/elec blaster works probably most here, simply because you keep layering them (and triggering SHOCKED)... but its LESS effective CC wise than would be ice (due to recharge and slow debuffs), or psi (because it also mucks with recharge)

 

the mob npcs kind of cheat... sure, you'll notice them not doing something for a second, but unless you can floor them immediately (kin, sometimes, on LTs or 'maybe' a regular trash boss --> and one cannot with an AV, period) --> the mechanic is ineffectual, largely.

 

again, and unfortunately, we'll never be a malta sapper.  ever.  even if you slot EVERYTHING for end drain / dmg sets.

 

having said that, I love elec control, I ❤️ my elec/elec blaster, I even have a figs variant whos elec/shield stalker.  but not because they're sappers. 

 

if anything, the end return on elec skills is nicest aspect of this.

 

lvck voltia - popular DC universe hero. lvck, not luck, bc someone took the name luck on excelsior and never plays...

Edited September 1, 2023 by honoroit

[Without_Pause]

30 minutes ago, honoroit said:

elec/elec blaster works probably most here

/elec has no -Recovery. Of the two powers which offer -Recovery for an Elec/elec Blaster, one is a nuke. A Defender is going to trigger Shocked status a lot more. 

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Gentoo said:

What would you say is the best "Sapper" build other than electricity control?

Another option would be Kinetics. It only has one end drain power (Transference), but it drains a LOT (56.25% unslotted on a defender, 49.5% on a corruptor). Enhanced, you can take a foe to zero as long as they don't resist it. Note that the end drain is ST (the buff is AoE).

 

For additional sapping, add Power Sink from Electricity Mastery or Mu Mastery. In that case the end drain is PBAoE (and the buff is self).

[honoroit]

6 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

/elec has no -Recovery. Of the two powers which offer -Recovery for an Elec/elec Blaster, one is a nuke. A Defender is going to trigger Shocked status a lot more. 

 

they just have to be low end. and i can tell you, it goes off all the time on elec/elec blaster.

 

literally everything(?) in both primary and secondary elec blast/elec manip, and voltaic sentinel, clip end. i mean subtract it, versus affect recovery.

 

its this effect, to the best of my knowledge, youll see it as a child where shocked exists as a mechanic.

 

if minmax(10 * target>kEndurance% / 7 - 100 / 7, 0, 100) < 100 * rand()

Edited September 1, 2023 by honoroit

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, honoroit said:

 

they just have to be low end.

 

literally everything, and voltaic sentinel, clip end.

 

its this effect, to the best of my knowledge, youll see it as a child where shocked ezista as a mechanic.

 

if minmax(10 * target>kEndurance% / 7 - 100 / 7, 0, 100) < 100 * rand()

Yes, but -Recovery makes getting to low end and it sticking there far easier. More so on harder targets. If a Blaster is a better debuffer than a Defender, then something is completely broken. 

[honoroit]

9 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Yes, but -Recovery makes getting to low end and it sticking there far easier. More so on harder targets. If a Blaster is a better debuffer than a Defender, then something is completely broken. 

 

i should be more clear - they're doing more damage with shocked (and in general) than a defender, by far.  mind you, they dont have an primary like elec affinity, so different figs 🙂 

[Zect]

Effective sapping, and especially sapping as a form of mitigation, requires the ability to floor blue bars quickly - within a few seconds - and then keep it there for at least a while. If you can't drain blue bars significantly faster than people can drain red bars, what's the point? Just do damage instead.

 

So you need some powers that have big -end, and some that have a good amount of -recovery. The good news is that elec blast provides a lot of -recovery on its own, from powers like short circuit and ball lightning; notably both are 100% chance to give -recovery, unlike some other powers. You just need some help on the -end front since thunderous blast isn't up every spawn (as a taoe nuke it has longer rech than normal). My personal favorite is kin. Transference is a huge -55% end and it is available every spawn.

 

And the great thing about a kin sapper is that it's still, well, a kin. You aren't pigeonholed into relying on sapping, or the shocked mechanic, because you still bring massive healing and damage independent of that. Kin is also the least slot-dependent set - so you have ample build capacity to invest in whatever you like. kin/elec/soul. Try it. Powerboost, soul drain, transference, short circuit.

 

If you want to branch out, you may consider blaster sappers, which are again very strong because they still do blaster dps outside of the sapping aspect. elec/elec is a classic combo with powersink, but elec/nrg is also very strong with its powerboost.

[Without_Pause]

23 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

i should be more clear - they're doing more damage with shocked (and in general) than a defender, by far.🙂 

A bit Captain Obvious.

[Frosticus]

8 hours ago, Gentoo said:

 

Well that is a disappointment.

 

What would you say is the best "Sapper" build other than electricity control?

If you are ok with 10 targets it is a sentinel - by a significant margin. 

[Gentoo]

3 hours ago, honoroit said:

having said that, I love elec control, I ❤️ my elec/elec blaster, I even have a figs variant whos elec/shield stalker.  but not because they're sappers. 

 

 

What is the difference between the end return on the electricity blasts and just a discount on endurance? It works differently? I suppose you have to hit to get the end return on blasts, so an end discount would be better?

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

If you are ok with 10 targets it is a sentinel - by a significant margin. 

I'm curious to know why. /elec only offers 30% chance of -Recovery via Power Sink. EA offers three ways to get -Recovery.

[Gentoo]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

Effective sapping, and especially sapping as a form of mitigation, requires the ability to floor blue bars quickly - within a few seconds - and then keep it there for at least a while. If you can't drain blue bars significantly faster than people can drain red bars, what's the point? Just do damage instead.

 

So you need some powers that have big -end, and some that have a good amount of -recovery. The good news is that elec blast provides a lot of -recovery on its own, from powers like short circuit and ball lightning; notably both are 100% chance to give -recovery, unlike some other powers. You just need some help on the -end front since thunderous blast isn't up every spawn (as a taoe nuke it has longer rech than normal). My personal favorite is kin. Transference is a huge -55% end and it is available every spawn.

 

And the great thing about a kin sapper is that it's still, well, a kin. You aren't pigeonholed into relying on sapping, or the shocked mechanic, because you still bring massive healing and damage independent of that. Kin is also the least slot-dependent set - so you have ample build capacity to invest in whatever you like. kin/elec/soul. Try it. Powerboost, soul drain, transference, short circuit.

 

If you want to branch out, you may consider blaster sappers, which are again very strong because they still do blaster dps outside of the sapping aspect. elec/elec is a classic combo with powersink, but elec/nrg is also very strong with its powerboost.

 

Doesn't having high DPS make the end drain redundant, becuase as you say the red goes down faster than the blue?

[Pazradym]

Interestingly, the best results I have had sapping was on my elec armor tanker.   Power Sink does amazing work getting groups drained even with tanker numbers. Then Lightning Field, even though its drain is minimal, would do a good job of keeping things at empty once they are there since it continuously drains over time.  I would regularly wander into large groups and just keep them at zero pretty much forever.   Less effective on AVs and the like for obvious reasons but for the hordes of anything else up through Bosses it felt really good.  I imagine teaming up with an Elec defender (or anyone with good -recovery really)  would be pretty awesome and make for some shenanigans. 

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I'm curious to know why. /elec only offers 30% chance of -Recovery via Power Sink. EA offers three ways to get -Recovery.

Elec Blast gives you Thunderous Blast on a 90s base recharge with the same drain ability as the blaster version, so you zero out 10 targets with your nuke opener every ~30s. Then you've got Short Circuit, Ball Lightning, Voltaic Sentinel, the usual goodness. It's relatively easy to sap stuff as an Elec/* Sentinel as an accidental secondary effect of dealing damage. If you build for it and stack a drain secondary on top, you can go far with the idea.

[Without_Pause]

3 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Elec Blast gives you Thunderous Blast on a 90s base recharge with the same drain ability as the blaster version, so you zero out 10 targets with your nuke opener every ~30s. Then you've got Short Circuit, Ball Lightning, Voltaic Sentinel, the usual goodness. It's relatively easy to sap stuff as an Elec/* Sentinel as an accidental secondary effect of dealing damage. If you build for it and stack a drain secondary on top, you can go far with the idea.

Which means a Defender still has it's own nuke, which if we do similar recharge reduction is in the area of 46 seconds, and has Shock, Galvanic Sentinel, and Defibrillate. I don't see how a Sent is better by a significant margin even without the limit to targets which hinders a Sent.

[MoonSheep]

i’ve recently made a kin/elec defender after playing my kin/sonic one for 4 years

 

powerboosted transference is a good end drain on single targets, then applyin short circuit etc

[nihilii]

If you assume 370% rech the Sent will recharge in 24s rather than 30s. IMHO either way you split it the difference is sensible, close to 2x. The power is up for every alpha and syncs with your Charge Up perfectly (which also increases end drain, these days).

 

TBH, I'm not dying on the Sent > Fender hill as I don't have strong experience with the defender, I am mostly trying to rationalize Frosticus' reply knowing it works well on Sentinels.