Hard mode?

[...]

So how do dominators do in hard mode content, anyway? Any builds that would contribute meaningfully?

[arcane]

Dominators are fairly low on the totem pole for hard mode. Not as bad as bringing a Mastermind, but not nearly as helpful as a Blaster, Corruptor, Defender, Scrapper, or Tanker. I would not recommend making a Dominator for hard mode content. 

[biostem]

4 hours ago, ... said:

So how do dominators do in hard mode content, anyway? Any builds that would contribute meaningfully?

If you can achieve perma-domination AND have high defenses, (via APPs/PPPs/pools/IOs), then you should contribute nicely.  Outside of that, I'd prefer having a controller along, TBH.

[arcane]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

If you can achieve perma-domination AND have high defenses, (via APPs/PPPs/pools/IOs), then you should contribute nicely.  Outside of that, I'd prefer having a controller along, TBH.

Don’t build for high defenses in a hard mode build… that’s the opposite of the current meta.

Edited October 6, 2023 by arcane

[Spaghetti Betty]

Since Hard Mode follows the damage meta more closely, your performance would be more weighted by your Secondary than your Primary. Mez isn't nearly as vital (at least in ITF, where all the mobs have buffed mez protection), save for your ST hold to stack mag on AVs or other key targets. And even then there are other ATs that fill that role just as well if not better.

 

However, this is only an issue if you're strictly focusing on efficiency in a 3* or 4* run (I would even say it's not that big a deal in a 3*). That kind of strictness is absolutely not necessary on lower difficulties, or if you're in a strong team just looking for a romp and not too worried about finishing as quick as possible.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[...]

That confirms my concern; dominators are not part of the hard mode meta. Thanks.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

There's probably at least partially a perception issue in play. A dominator built for damage can be a high end damage dealer. The lack of nukes for doms and 10 target caps for most dominator AOEs puts limits on how high AOE burst damage can go. But, single target damage can be very high and higher end sustained AOE damage is attainable. Noticeably helpful debuffs can be brought along, as well, more than a blaster or scrapper is likely to be able to access. But, "control with some damage" is the lingering perception of many, many doms are built that way anyways, and that affects hard mode recruiters' thinking. 

 

For example, a plant dom can help a lot for huge scrums with seeds and creepers. And there are a fair number of huge fights in hard mode Aeon and some in hard mode ITF. A fire / psy / ice dom can do a lot of both single target and AOE damage, as well as debuffing enemy regen / defense / resistances by a large amount. Other builds can at least come close to the damage potential these particular powerset combinations can put out. 

Edit: Take a look at the spreadsheet SomeGuy maintains for pylon runs and cross-reference it with the thread on Trapdoor runs, both in the scrapper forum. Dominators don't have a large number of entries in those threads at the highest end of the performance spectrum. But, doms do have representation in them that would generally be viewed as excellent performance. That doms can also bring along noticeably helpful debuffs and control, along with very high damage, would seem to argue for a place in the "hard mode" meta for at least some dom builds. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by EnjoyTheJourney

[arcane]

Certainly Dominators are viable in hard mode, but they’re very far from being the most helpful thing to bring, that’s all.

[Frosticus]

Generally: low target caps on damage powers, low "burst" damage, limited access to tohit buffs, mobs that can be very resistant to controls, usually need to be directly in melee to deal good damage, very limited debuff resistance/protection, very limited team buffing ability, heavily reliant on others if any aggro is pulled. 

 

It's an uphill battle for them, but one certainly won't prevent success. 

[...]

Yeah I mean I love the AT, but it would seem that hard mode isn't a place for Doms, all of the above considered. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Characters tend to get fulcrum shift buffs more often when in or at least close to melee, in general. So, melee is often the place to be to maximize the damage you bring to a team. Characters that operate mostly at range can have better "on paper" damage and lose a lot (or perhaps even all) of that "on paper" advantage in dealing damage based solely on those in melee getting fulcrum shift more often.

On that note, I've only done one run on a 4* ITF with a dom along. IIRC it wasn't a full team. The team members were highly skilled and the usually represented ATs / builds were present (solid tank, kin corr, at least one cold corr, ...). 

The dom I brought along pretty much lives in melee range, which based on things I've seen written in multiple posts is supposedly a Bad Thing for at least some ATs (apparently including doms) when doing 4* runs. Good thing I'd never heard that (at the time) because, despite me being pretty much a noob at 4* runs, my dom was defeated once by a hostless nictus when, IIRC, a few of us had one attached to us at the same time and then was defeated one more time by Rom in the very last battle. There wasn't a lot of defeats for the group as a whole, which speaks to having highly skilled teammates. But, my dom didn't stand out in a bad way for defeats compared to other characters. She got more buffs by being basically always in melee, though, including a regularly cast fulcrum shift. Regularly receiving fulcrum shift buffs took her damage to another level (of course). With regularly gained kin buffs, 2 quickly recharging AOEs, and steady chip damage from chilling embrace she contributed noticeably to the team's AOE damage, especially if compared to what most melee ATs would bring. And her single target damage was also very solid. When she was alone with other mobs around, which did happen sometimes, especially in the caves in mission 2, I never felt that she was in trouble just for being on her own. And she wasn't, at least for that run. 

 

She was effective at neutralizing hostless nictus by casting a mag 6 hold on them; the low death count for the party probably had at least something to do with having a dom along who could quickly neutralize hostless nictus. Movement and recharge debuffs in hard mode content work the same as for any other content and she brought that to the group. She brought a lot of defense debuffs, including one that's auto-hit and that really slows down mob movement (quicksand). Debuffing movement speed is particularly impactful in the ITF because melee is where mobs in that TF tend to be most effective; fewer allies being swarmed in melee leads to noticeably fewer ally defeats, other things being equal. She also brought heat metal from her epic power pool and had a -resist IO in it. Her debuff contributions were solid and noticeably more impactful than what most other ATs would bring to the table. 

Maybe that was a lucky run. Maybe the pessimists had experiences with doms that weren't built or run near the ceiling of what their powersets would support when they formed their opinions. Maybe it's a bit of both. But, the pessimists seem at least a bit overly pessimistic, overall, about what a dom can bring to a 4* run. 

Edit: Originally put "unresistable" in a place where "auto-hit" was the correct term. Should have been more careful with word choice.

Edited October 9, 2023 by EnjoyTheJourney
Poor wording for one sentence

[MoonSheep]

it depends what sets you’re bringing

 

when i bring along my mind/fire i’m mostly using it for the high damage output which is on par with a lot of dedicated damage dealers. energy would have similar credentials 

 

having a helpful mastery like ice to pickup sleet also allows for useful contributions

 

i often use my mind dom to confuse the harder foes at the start of combat to reduce the danger, i’d imagine plant would have similar benefits

 

hard mode enemies are min/maxed, bring a min/max dom

[MoonSheep]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:29 PM, arcane said:

Don’t build for high defenses in a hard mode build… that’s the opposite of the current meta.

 

agreed.

 

i would go further, most people building squishies for defence are trying to IO their way out of a lack of experience playing the AT and are dulling the potential benefits of leaning into the particular qualities of certain squishy ATs (doms, defs)

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

46 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

agreed.

 

i would go further, most people building squishies for defence are trying to IO their way out of a lack of experience playing the AT and are dulling the potential benefits of leaning into the particular qualities of certain squishy ATs (doms, defs)

 

This is true for some situations, but not for others. 

Barrier is so strong that when it can be kept constantly up by a team then slotting IOs to shore up defenses isn't necessary (or even necessarily helpful). That's why arcane is right in saying that building for defenses in hard mode is the opposite of the current meta. It's also true that speed runs at +0 don't really typically much in the way of defenses. Burnout and doubling up on inferno is a very good substitute for defenses in a variety of situations for those kinds of runs, especially if there's more than one "triple fire" blaster in the team. Thus, at the lower end of the difficulty scale and at the top end improving defenses with IOs often won't do much other than lead to missed opportunities to do more damage or to enhance other good things a character can bring to a team. Also, if there's no real need for you to deal with much aggro because your other teammates will look after that for you, then you don't need defenses for that situation either. 

 

So, when might building for good defense / resistance totals be helpful, then? Here are some examples ...
 

1. "Master of" runs for which there's no incarnates at all and limited other resources available.

2. When only the alpha incarnate is active for a TF / SF and none other, plus inspirations and other good team buffs are not available.
3. When your dom, defender, blaster, or other "squishie" is the one taking alpha / aggro because no other character on the team can take a significant amount of aggro and survive. 

4. Soloing high difficulty content such as AVs / GMs / ...

Looking across these different situations it would seem that if somebody wants a "min / maxed" dom then there will be at least two builds: one build would have good defenses and the other would have very minimal defenses and would push as hard as possible maximize damage (and perhaps debuffs / buffs). 

The fifth scenario is if somebody does lack experience playing the AT then it can make good sense for them to build with defenses in mind. Tis more challenging to learn much, and it may not be much fun, to have one's dom consistently "kissing carpet" because of a lack of experience.  

[carroto]

On 10/8/2023 at 4:49 PM, Frosticus said:

Generally: low target caps on damage powers, low "burst" damage, limited access to tohit buffs, mobs that can be very resistant to controls, usually need to be directly in melee to deal good damage, very limited debuff resistance/protection, very limited team buffing ability, heavily reliant on others if any aggro is pulled. 

 

Ouch.  Use lube next time.

 

This provides a good illustration of a feeling I've had for a long time, going back to pre-shutdown...it's always seemed like the devs were overly concerned about Doms being overpowered, or maybe stepping on the toes of other ATs, leaving them relegated to a "Jack of all trades, master of none" role.  That was more fine back in the earlier days, but it seems like the more the game progressed, the more Doms got left behind.

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, carroto said:

 

Ouch.  Use lube next time.

 

This provides a good illustration of a feeling I've had for a long time, going back to pre-shutdown...it's always seemed like the devs were overly concerned about Doms being overpowered, or maybe stepping on the toes of other ATs, leaving them relegated to a "Jack of all trades, master of none" role.  That was more fine back in the earlier days, but it seems like the more the game progressed, the more Doms got left behind.

Haha ya, doms and stalkers are my two favorite ATs and neither of them are getting voted homecoming queen of hardmode anytime soon.

 

But it could change. Team strategies change and what was once challenging is no longer

[Voltak]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:17 PM, ... said:

So how do dominators do in hard mode content, anyway? Any builds that would contribute meaningfully?

Make your own hard mode 

Go and try to do the Lord Recluse Strike Force solo , try different difficulty settings or go max settings. 
Go try to do the classic ITF solo,  try different difficulty settings or go max settings. 
Try no inspirations, no temps, no deaths. 

Try doing Malta arc, or Carnies arc, max settings, no inspirations is an option. 
If you encounter an AV or two in those story arcs, take them on solo 

OR.....

You can join us doing all ITF 4 STARS , ONLY DOMINATORS.   
In those cases be aware that Dominators with 

Confuse , especially AoE , but ST confuse as well , is super good and useful since they will stack and can overcome even the EBs or the AVs. 

Electric control is also super good for this, 2-3  Elec Doms can very quickly zap groups of mobs of all their endurance 

Secondary set for dmg is important of course. 

________________________

I did the earlier TFs, the ones before reaching lvl 50, with one of my doms.  But I did this WAY BEFORE the developers made this a lot more easy for doms. 

So dominators now, for example, can do Penelope or Sister Psych task force a lot easier than before because

the amount of powers they have access to for those task forces  is now greater than before when you exempt down
the amount of slots is greater

therefore the amount of IOs and IO bonuses are greater now 

You can have pets out now sooner when you exempt down. 

__________________

If you want to do these things , like 4 star ITFs, or the occasional group 801 challenges at the AE, or running small teams of task forces , like 2-3 man teams of dominators only,  feel free to join us at the Master ITF chnl in game. 

 

Edited January 9 by Voltak

[WitchofDread]

im working on leveling an ill/dark/cold that is pretty fast in pylon tests. It averages around 135s which is faster than a lot of my controller or corruptor builds.

[Voltak]

On 1/18/2024 at 6:00 PM, WitchofDread said:

im working on leveling an ill/dark/cold that is pretty fast in pylon tests. It averages around 135s which is faster than a lot of my controller or corruptor builds.

For the hard mode content, for example, like the ones we do in our Master chnl,  the dmg as measure in pylon testing for controllers, you will find that it is not practically useful. 
What truly shines in group hard mode is the Fade and the Heal and the debuffs. 

Multiple targets makes single target DPS something which is best left to specialists , specifically those you can control where all the dmg is targeted. 

If I had to offer advice to anyone building a character for the hardest content around, I would advise to stay away from controllers because they are not able to control to  any significant degree where all their possible dmg is directed unless there is only 1 target around or so.  

That's where blasters, dominators, corruptors, defenders, even Master Mind (MMs can control where the dmg is focused) shine.  

Granted, they are solid solid toons and when we do groups where controllers are a requirement for the team make up  or when we do challenges where every AT must be diversified (so no repeat of any AT) and so on, controllers like this one you mention, do truly shine. 

Now, if you making it for your own hard mode personal challenges, knock yourself out.  
You cannot go wrong with just about anything in the game, since you can tailor make what will be hard mode for you. 

 

[WitchofDread]

My ill/dark/cold is actually a dom. It's my fastest damage dealer

[EnjoyTheJourney]

If you don't mind sharing, how are you building to get pylon times down to about 95 seconds? That's about 535 DPS, which is very good. 

I'm taking about 178ish seconds to defeat a pylon on an ill / dark / fire dom, which works out to about 343-ish DPS. Melt armor doesn't compare favorably to sleet. But, that alone can't explain the performance difference. There are probably other choices you're making that are also impactful on single target damage that I've not made. 

If you'd rather keep that private, then that is of course entirely up to you. 
 

[arcane]

5 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

If you don't mind sharing, how are you building to get pylon times down to about 95 seconds? That's about 535 DPS, which is very good. 

I'm taking about 178ish seconds to defeat a pylon on an ill / dark / fire dom, which works out to about 343-ish DPS. Melt armor doesn't compare favorably to sleet. But, that alone can't explain the performance difference. There are probably other choices you're making that are also impactful on single target damage that I've not made. 

If you'd rather keep that private, then that is of course entirely up to you. 
 

My Ill/Fire/Ice Dom was getting times between 65 and 80 seconds back when I did pylon testing so it sounds conceivable for an Ill/Dark/Ice to do 95.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I have no doubt that WitchofDread is telling the truth and that you are as well.

There's probably one or more good things to learn from taking a look at WitchofDread's build. That's likely true for your dom's build, as well. Builds are the product of time and effort, though, and whether or not to share them is 100% up the one making a build. Of course. 

[Voltak]

14 hours ago, WitchofDread said:

My ill/dark/cold is actually a dom. It's my fastest damage dealer

Controllers do not get Domination.  Dominators can lock bosses down in one shot, even in AoE, 100% as long as the accuracy check is made and as long as the mobs are not resistant to mez.

As far as dmg goes, again, pylon is a single target, with very little practical similarity to what happens in game. 

The problem why illusion trollers can't reach the levels of damage like others in practical game scenarios  is that trollers cannot control or manipulate where all the possible dmg is going unless there is only one target to focus that. 

Dominators, blasters, corruptors, defenders, mastermind... they can focus their dmg. 

Illusion trollers have pets which cannot be commanded or directed. 

Do you feel what I am saying ?  

In hard mode challenges , in settings where there are many targets, your dmg is among the bottom of the team because of this inability that illusion pets have.  

Now, when the team finally gets to a one target scenario things change, but even then there are others who can do it while still be better DMG in other scenarios.    All the rest of the time, which is the vast majority of the time, there are a vast number of targets that need to get killed ASAP.    Those are the scenarios you don't want a controller if given the choice among ATs. 

To name one example , there are many others 

In the ITF 4 star runs that we do for different challenges, the ones where we have controllers are among the slowest in time to complete, even with illusion. 

WHy?

Lack of ability to control the targeting, to control and directly manipulate where all the dmg is going.  

Corruptors, defenders, Blasters and Dompers will have better times when they are in the team replacing controllers. 

 

Edited January 20 by Voltak

[Voltak]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:52 PM, ... said:

That confirms my concern; dominators are not part of the hard mode meta. Thanks.

Hard Mode is not a single mission
Hard Mode is not a single task force
Hard Mode is not a single trial 
Hard Mode is not a single AV 
Hard Mode is not a single GM 

Hard Mode encompasses a lot of things and in diverse ways. 

ITF 4 stars 
AEON 4 star or relentless 
They represent SOME THINGS in hard mode but not all hard mode by itself 

Hard Mode can also be 

A. A single dominator doing the Lord Recluse Strike Force alone at 54x8 , no inspirations, no deaths, no temps.   The dominator is the only AT that has done this so far.  

B. Two Dominators doing the Tin Mage trial , no inspirations, no deaths, no temps, 54x8 in quick time.  So far, in our chnl, the fastest time between Doms and Controllers, Doms are the only ones who have done it  in 30 (thirty) mins or under that time under  such conditions.   So far, in our chnl, only Dominators have been able to do this, no controller duo yet. 

C. Three dominators doing APEX , no inspirations, no deaths, no temps, 54x8 in 20 (TWENTY)  mins or less as the conditions or requirements, again, no controllers have done this in our chnl, the dominators have done it.   Again, this is comparing controllers to dominators. 

D.  Doing one of the AE challenges solo with a Dominator.  Like when I created one of the challenges that even @Luna, who is a grand master at creating and doing these, not even Luna with any of Luna's super tanks was able to do this alone without dying.   Enter a lonely Mind Dominator and solo's the whole thing without dying once.  

E.  Could be doing the classical ITF with only two players, yep, a duo, with no inspirations, no temps, ZERO DEATHS.   Between controllers and doms , doms have done this in the fastest times at 54 x 8.  

F. Hard mode can also be doing the ITF 4 stars under the following conditions -->

A full team but NO AT can be repeated.   No power set can be repeated either.  
5 deaths or less, in under 60 minutes. 

I can go on and on and on. 

So, @arcane, there is certainly room for Doms AND  Doms can do well in Hard Mode, if you keep a proper or more precise view of what HARD MODE actually is. 


 

Edited January 20 by Voltak