Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Please leave the Superior Invis clone alone.  I really like that power's utility.

Same.

[Videra]

And here's the Carnies one. The other two were a bit too long for youtube because I got The Big Sewer Maps, so I'll run those again too. Not my finest performance, but still fairly representative of the main issue the set faces in lacking lock-down.

[Psi-bolt]

I played with the most recent patch a bit yesterday.  And.... the set's fun.  I'm going to play it, get it to 50.  I still think that an immobilize would bring the set altogether, but it didn't stop me from having fun with the set.

 

Can I suggest this (I know it's off-topic, but related to theming of the set):  

 

Arsenal Mastery  (Controller)

 

Body Armor

Burst

M30 Grenade

Targeting Drone

Wide Area Web Grenade

 

Arsenal Mastery (Dominators)

 

Body Armor

M30 Grenade

LRM Rocket

Personal Force Field

Wide Area Web Grenade

Edited February 9 by Psi-bolt

[Shin Magmus]

Having Burst and M30 Grenade on a Controller would be completely insane, in a good way.  But I just think that's a bridge too far for this patch.  WAWG would also be a dead Epic power and 100% not worth placement as a lv41 or lv44 Epic T3 when paired with any Controller primary that already has an AoE Immob... so like 80%of them.  The value of the normal AoE Immobs that Controllers get is that, due to their low CDs, even if you could take one in an Epic Pool: you'd never need it for stacking because you can just re-cast Fire Cages or Roots so quickly (to Mag6, then Mag9, etc).

Edited February 9 by ShinMagmus
Gooder Word Words

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, ShinMagmus said:

Having Burst and M30 Grenade on a Controller would be completely insane, in a good way.  But I just think that's a bridge too far for this patch. 

 

Oh, I agree.  Just putting the seed out there since we need an Arsenal Mastery set to go along with these two at some point.  I don't think Burst and M30 Grenade is out of line though with Fire Mastery having Fire Blast and Fireball as its T1 and T2 powers.   

 

Quote

WAWG would also be a dead power and 100% not worth placement as a T3 on every Controller primary that already has an AoE Immob... so like 80%of them.  The value of the normal AoE Immobs that Controllers get is that, due to their low CDs, even if you could take one in an Epic Pool: you'd never need it for stacking because you can just re-cast Fire Cages or Roots so quickly (to Mag6, then Mag9, etc).

 

Also agree, and I doubt that Controllers/Dominators would even be allowed to have AoE controls in their Ancillary pools, but for those sets that don't have an AoE Immobilize it would be a nice way to plug the whole at high level.  And Fire Control, Plant Control, etc. have enough toys already! 😄

 

EDIT:  And we are well and truly off-topic now and I expect these posts will be sent to the shadow realm soon, so I move it myself to Suggestions.

Edited February 9 by Psi-bolt

[Videra]

Alright, here it is. The video of me getting flattened by Arachnos at +4/*8.

 

My criticisms remain the same - the sum of many clicks on Arsenal Control has much less impact than the sum of a few clicks on, say, Earth Control. My only option for real lock-down is Poison Trap + Tear Gas, which isn't a combo I can reasonably expect to have available every group. The pet, also, frankly feels anemic - it just sits there looking pretty and shooting things for minor damage. It does nothing save have an inflated health pool - compare to Singularity, in gravity control, which is set defining.

Edited February 10 by Videra

[Shin Magmus]

I also got flattened when I tried Arachnos, in both Build 3 and in Build 4 (after the bugfix).  It's not even worth attempting again, Arse Control is too weak to fight them at +4/x8.

[Nightmarer]

Ok, maybe I am wrong but, for what I've read, many people state that Arsenal Control does not have Synergy with Arsenal Assault. So, two heavily linked thematic sets that do not share synergy, shouldn't that be enoough to review at least one of the sets if not both in depth?

 

Just my 2 cents

Edited February 10 by Nightmarer
Typos, typos everywhere

[Frosticus]

I think this is about as good as it's going to get. Maybe add some -fly to one of the aoe powers (as mentioned) and fix the low acc of all the psuedopets and call it a day.

 

6/13 dom assault sets have Power Up, you might even say it is a key power for dominators.

I'm not sure how the current patch based sleep grenade is intended to work with Power Up for dominators, but I know how it logically should.

 

Most of the powers in the set ignore powerup, but sleep nade is especially egregious because it is an aoe attack that doesn't work with things like inspirations, fulcrum, buildup, souldrain, power up, etc. 

[Shin Magmus]

We're just waiting so I figured I'd get more data from a baseline everyone here should be familiar with: Penelope Yin TF: Please enjoy the footage of these few fights.

 

This is very frequently ran content, often blitzed through on +0 though I've seen teams turn it up to get more XP since Freakshow aren't a terribly difficult enemy group.  I tested on +0/x8 for the same experience, and picked this because Freakshow have some mobs which can fly.  The results are comically sad.  The idea that this set has slow fields and an Ice Slick of sorts, but that NONE of those powers inflict -jump or -fly, is genuinely hilarious.  Watch these guys just fly out of Sleep Grenade at hyperspeed because they don't care at all about my weak powers.  Caltrops stops this, but that's my secondary.  I could manually throw a single target Immob from my secondary at every single enemy in turn, and spend the fight dealing 0 damage, but that wouldn't be very smart.  I could also stop it with other highly specific powers from secondaries like Tar Patch or Glue Arrow, but why should I need to do that when Ice Slick or Quicksand or Carrion Creepers or any Control Set Immobilize will provide -fly effects in all of those sets?  At this point, we've devolved into highlighting each individual weakness of the set one-at-a-time as a single problems: such as needing -fly.  We then sit here waiting for a new build to bake in these effects into one of the existing powers.

 

But all of these weaknesses combined just add up to be: Fire Cages (Wide Area Web Grenade, etc.)  It's amazing how easy it would be to fix this.

[stryve]

Ran through my usual testing cycle with a Arse/Traps Controller again.  Normal leveling to 10, then skipping 5 levels between mission to 50.  SOs only, except for the usual Endurance Management IOs in Health and Stamina (and a KB/BD in Temporal Bomb, eventually).

 

First few levels are basically unchanged:  the extra Slows don't make much difference against Minions and Lieutenants at very low levels.

 

Not sure how much was the improvements in Build 4 and how much was my just getting better with the set, but I bumped difficulty to 0x4 with Bosses by Level 4. 

 

Sleep Grenade is back to doing negligible AoE damage as a patch, but the flexibility of placement is nice; easier to catch a whole group this way.  Still taking up to 4 seconds before mobs start falling asleep, though.

 

Other reviews here and my own previous experiences have brought me around on Liquid Nitrogen as a damage dealer in addition to soft control.  It does work well to whittle down Minions.  Except Clockwork, those either just go flying with a single tick or ignore it.

 

At 15 I ran a Banished Pantheon mission and discovered they resist most everything I do at that level really well.   At least the Husks are already slow, so they don't tend to run out of the patches.  But doing barely any damage with Cold, Toxic, and Smash/Lethal made it quite a slog.

 

20 and 25 didn't see any major shifts, just slowly added capability with Flash Bang and Tear Gas.  Still opening with Smoke Cannister, then Liquid Nitrogen, then cycling powers until the group is down.  Can only get those two powers (and Flash Bang) to around 45 seconds recharge with SOs, so there's a gap.  I compensated by watching the recharge numbers to fire off Sleep Grenade a little before they'd time out, moving to Tear Gas as available at 25.

 

At 30 I had access to Tri-Cannon and suddenly things seemed to be going a lot faster.  First run was 0x4 Council, so to be sure I took on Freakshow at 0x6 and still did fine.  Between the added single target DPS and taking aggro off of me, Tri-Cannon made a very noticeable difference.

 

I had all my desired Primary and Secondary powers by 30, so 35 to 40 were just picking up a few Pool Powers and filling out enhancement slots.  35 went about the same as 30, but by 40 the extra enhancements (plus Leadership Toggles) had added up enough that I tried 0x8 Carnies.  I was riding the edge, but only died to the first group (two Master Illusionists summoned all their pets on top of me, and I didn't react fast enough).

 

I continued at 0x8 for 45 and 50; enemies including the new Council and Arachnos.  Definitely had to pay attention or things could go south very quickly, but it was doable.  Sleep Grenade was the only Arsenal patch that didn't have a recharge gap, so cycling powers at an offset to cover those gaps was necessary.  Traps was mostly defensive here, except for Acid Mortar and Seeker Drones.  Warwolves and many Banes are functionally immune to Slow (Immobilize as well, so that wouldn't change things), so they often escaped the patches and ran up on me.  Retreating behind Tri-Cannon usually resulted in them diverting off of me, which with the Traps made it manageable.

 

Next I respeced and slotted IO sets, with a preference for Global Recharge bonuses.  Managed to get Smoke Canister, Liquid Nitrogen, and Flash Bang to right around 30 seconds.  That let me keep the patches up more or less permanently.  Firing off all three in sequence will get most of a group thoroughly disrupted (mostly Confused, Stunned, and flopping with Containment).  Tear Gas and Sleep Grenade get thrown in for extra debuffs when things start going wrong (or just because large groups of vomiting enemies are amusing).  I ran several missions, culminating in +2x8 Carnies, which again was difficult but doable.  Most trouble came from very hard hitting enemies killing me faster than I could react, or getting distracted and losing control of the fight.

 

Finally, I slotted full Incarnates and turned things up to +4x8, but not solo Archvillains.  First mission was a Safeguard, so Malta, Carnies, and Arachnos.  Charged straight for the bank, and it turned out Ghost Widow had come out this time.  Even as an EB she's pretty tough, especially with a mob of Boss Bane Spiders backing her up.  Still, I managed to not die (barely).  After I finished in the bank I took on a few Malta groups just to see; went pretty well, but I was targeting Sappers first.  Exited after that and ran several more Radios, all Arachnos for maximum difficulty.  The first was a save the hostage in blue caves, which went smoothly until the end when I couldn't finish the ambushes fast enough and got overwhelmed by multiple groups.  That mass sent me back to the hospital several times before I cleared it out.  Might have been able to do better with more caution, or just being more on the ball with power use.  Continued on with Arachnos on an Office map, which keeps groups in more concentrated blocks.  Had to be very careful, especially with hard hitting bosses, but I was able to wear them down consistently.  That said, it wasn't anything close to fast;  I was using Smoke Cannister and Liquid Nitrogen 2 or 3 times for every group, and usually ended up with at least some on top of me by the end.

 

Overall this does seem to be the best version so far.  Pretty sure the Slows have been increased in general, and adding Slow to Tranquilizer and Cryo Freeze Ray helps against harder targets.  That said, flying enemies can just take off in open maps (Sky Raiders are especially bad for that), and Tear Gas is the only tool in the set that can do anything about it.

 

I'll probably add more observations later, but I've lost track of things over the course of writing this up.

Edited February 12 by stryve

[Frosticus]

I've switched my Slotting of sleep nade to slow enhancements. The damage is pointless as it ignores buffs, so I'm not wasting acc slotting on it. The sleep often takes several seconds to kick in (says 0.25 sec though??), but more movement slows have some use.

 

Maybe if it did knockdown on cast the sleep would kick in more consistently by the time they are up.

[ExeErdna]

On 2/8/2024 at 4:49 PM, Psi-bolt said:

 

Please leave the Superior Invis clone alone.  I really like that power's utility.

Yeah, I agree it allows the Traps synergy to work without going too deep into stealth, I noticed I often go back into stealth mid fight allowing me to use the mines

[ExeErdna]

On 2/8/2024 at 3:29 PM, Videra said:

So, while the videos are uploading, I wanted to say that I just took the set through 4/8 Carnies, Nemesis, and CoT with traps. I'm planning on doing Arachnos either later tonight or tomorrow.

My criticisms have not changed, though I do agree that the buffs given in this last build have by and large been good. The things I most often found myself thinking while playing this set - not optimally, mind, but against some of the harder enemy groups regardless - were 'Why are you standing there?', and 'Welp, they got out of my patches.' There is a single tool which could resolve this problem elegantly.

I have asked, multiple times, and I am going to keep repeating myself. Give your set based on FOUR ground patches an AOE immobilize. It just needs that little extra tool - it won't be cookie cutter, you've given it its own identity as the patch set, it feels different. We don't need cloaking device, by example, I'd even still take Liquid Nitrogen as an AOE immobilize patch.

To quote Shin;
 

Kill Cloaking Device for Wide Area Web Grenade that slows more -rech, -speed, does -fly, and deals no dmg (to not break sleep): set's done. Instant send.

I'd rather get rid of Tranq for the WAWG since it's the only thing that looks "off" from the whole set. Even a cone based "freeze ray" that does immo would be on theme. I mean we have the animation from Beam. The Cloaking Device works so you can set up choke points and kinda pull the group out of trouble by not pulling all the aggro.

[ExeErdna]

From my experiences with this set, I first worked it with Traps didn't understand wtf I was doing, then Force Field, and then went back to Traps with a better understanding of it. With the Controller set psi proc you can make Flashbang hit HARD, The ST Hold is solid. The Sleep nade maybe something I use in lower levels yet higher It kind of gets forgotten. Liquid Nitrogen should last longer and or be a bit "wider" as it hits hard enough so it can hold doors and hallways better. I like the smoke grenade it's my favorite part of the set. Being able to drop smoke on a minefield before a Fold Space. Forces enemies to be confused if they manage to not just get wiped out. The Stealth is perfect in this set, as it allows you to sit back and let other things pull aggro away from you without going into the Stealth set. YET this is something I wouldn't slot at all I'll either throw a LotG or a Kismet in there and call it a day. The Tri-Cannon, it's ok it's a tough pet. It can hold off a bunch of Malta and new Counsel/Thorns for enough time for me to set up. Yet It should be hitting in a cone to help it pull, hold aggro and help the clear time. I'm gonna test 4 slotting an aggro set and putting in the def/res pieces to see if it stays alive even longer, yet I will stand by that Tri-Cannon NEEDS to hit in a cone. Since it isn't like its Brother in Devices where with enough Recharge there are two of them down. The real reason why I skip Tranq is because I dislike how it looks, the massive Widow barb is just weird when we have the dart that the Gunslingers use that does the same thing... I think that one is stronger due to it doing -regen. Yet due to how AC side is slot-hungry, there are two builds for it. "The Sleepy" and "The Icy" paths. Since on my current AC/Traps I'm thinking of dropping Sleep nade so I can put some points into the mines and fold space. Yet at the moment, Sleepy is simply worse than Icy.

 

[Shin Magmus]

7 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

Yeah, I agree it allows the Traps synergy to work without going too deep into stealth, I noticed I often go back into stealth mid fight allowing me to use the mines

You sit and do nothing for 10s during a fight, just so you can walk up and place an incredibly slow casting mine?  On top of that being really unhelpful to your team, I have to ask: why don't the enemies just run away during those 10s of you not casting anything?

 

You have a recording of enemies politely sitting in your patches for 10s while you do nothing?

[ExeErdna]

21 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

You sit and do nothing for 10s during a fight, just so you can walk up and place an incredibly slow casting mine?  On top of that being really unhelpful to your team, I have to ask: why don't the enemies just run away during those 10s of you not casting anything?

 

You have a recording of enemies politely sitting in your patches for 10s while you do nothing?

Because it's AC/Traps there's no escape

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

Because it's AC/Traps there's no escape

See, I wish there was no escape, but if you watch any of the footage of my Arse/Traps the reality is that it's very easy for enemies to escape.  Do you have a video of you pausing all attacking for 10s, then walking up and successfully toe-bombing (and the enemies not leaving the area)?

[Videra]

3 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

Because it's AC/Traps there's no escape

 

Seconding Shin, record a clip and show it. Because everything that we've shown has gone completely counter to your claim.

[WindDemon21]

I still think the -to hit on smoke canister needs to be increased to 15%, or even better since you have to slot it for so much confuse 20% but not slottable, and the - damage in the aoe hold which will get used so less often should be moved to the sleep grenade as well.

 

With all the issues the set really did need - fly added to the sleep grenade too, and -kb added to the confuse canister so enemies don't kb themselves out of it.

 

Since the set for some odd reason must not have an aoe immobilize and they refuse to just put in a slow field with pull in, these should at least be done to help.

 

And let us slot nitrogen/ ice slick/ ice patch for slows and kb enh/ sets! That should already be obvious to help and should have been done for ice slick and patch DECADES ago...

[Mythcreatio]

The flow and feeling of combat seems off. It's an odd combo of low damage + waiting a bit to long for some powers to come off CD's. There are 2 low CD abilities for spamming, and 9 times out of 10 players will only have 1 or the other not both of them.

 

Right now the current recharge times I see are:

 

Tranquilizer - 6s

Cryo Freeze Ray - 8s

Sleep Grenade - 45s

Liquid Nitrogen - 1m:30s

Cloaking - Not needed for this.

Smoke Canister - 1m:30s

Flash Bang - 1m:30s

Tear Gas - 4m

Cannon - Not needed for this.

 

Maybe the below timings:

 

Tranquilizer - 6s

Cryo Freeze Ray - 8s

Sleep Grenade - 45s

Liquid Nitrogen - 1m:30s -----> 1m or 1m:15s

Cloaking - Not needed for this.

Smoke Canister - 1m:30s -----> 1m:15s

Flash Bang - 1m:30s

Tear Gas - 4m

Cannon - Not needed for this.

 

Sleep Grenade damage change:

 

I'm all for new power concepts, but there needs to be something that better compensates for what is being removed.

 

Right now the traditional T3 immobilize that usually has a CD of 8s is replaced with a 45s CD power. For this length the power should do some more damage to compensate. I think this would help achieve more of a balance with the changes above to recharge times as well.

 

(Used by level 50 Controller) Average Damage: 18.35 -----> 36.7 (Double) - Compensates for the long CD + No immob

(Used by level 50 Dominator) Average Damage: 31.70 -----> 63.4 (Double) - Compensates for the long CD + No immob

• The powerset's utilizing a gun, at the very least one ability should pack some on-hit direct crunch lol.

 

Flash Bang change:

 

-5% To Hit -----> -10% To Hit

 

New changes and concepts are more than welcome by ALL of us believe me haha! However, the overall flow and how good a set feels to play should outweigh everything. This isn't Blizzard lol. OPTIONS = the name of the game, if the team feels locked into the powers that are currently in the beta phase. That's all good! However, offer other potential options to entice players to want to play the set and try various builds (altitis) upon release. This way we avoid the whole "hit the shelf" after 1-2weeks of the past. Let's learn and grow together. Make the changes that keep players playing the set enough to where you have those who actually want to "main" it. That and as mentioned prior the overall flow and how good a set feels to play should be the goal always and forever.

 

No one wants to play something that doesn't feel good. If that were the case, NONE of us would have games we dislike.

 

Thank you for coming to part two of my Ted Talk. 😁

Edited February 12 by Mythcreatio

[Death2Tyrants]

My criticisms of Arsenal Control isn't as harsh as some others but I do agree with many of the points made about the set. I am still excited to see new control sets released even if it only serves two ATs. The TLDR Slows and Sleeps are subpar controls. Arsenal has no unique signature.

 

Arsenal Control checks all the box of following a theme of ejecting projectiles and grenades out of a gun. Mechanically, minus occasional wandering mobs, the set offers fairly good control with persistent location based effects. Whether deliberate or not, I find it complements /Traps and /Trick Arrow just fine. I think it is fine to break away from the boilerplate copy-paste some of the other sets are designed by.

 

I don't like that the set has throwaway powers. I much prefer sets that have compelling choices for every power pick. It should be difficult to not pick a power. Min-Maxers will always optimize but the average player should be saying "picking between power A or power B is a tough choice". Some powers will always have more utility at lower levels which is fine as a power set design choice. I don't necessarily agree with this philosophy, if someone put effort into crafting a set every power should be a compelling choice to be played IMO. As a controller player not a fan of movement slows or sleeps either even if it is a pulsing effect. I would almost prefer to loose the Sleep for Fear even if I loose containment. Sleepnade is nearly in the skip camp while LN patch is a hard skip for me as it's knock down is too infrequent as a control or damage power.

 

What makes some of the original sets memorable is the unique signature most of the sets had at the time of their release.

Before the release of Dark/. Earth had Volcanic Gases which was a unique effect with a persistent hold patch.

Fire/ was a bit out of wack(or should be the standard) but had some utility with Smoke and mostly DPS oriented effects with Hot Feet and Bon Fire.

Ice/ was a a bit of a Fire/ clone with lower DPS. Movement Slow + -Recharge and AA are characteristic of the set.

Gravity/ has Wormhole and at the time Propel was neat (but mostly eye candy)

Illusion/ is the stand out with PA and offering some Invisibility support (leveraging threat reduction was the intent)

Mind/ was very unique with prenerf TK and Mass Confusion. When most thought of petless Mind as being weak, TK in the hands of a pro was a marvel to watch

Plant/ has Creepers and SoC which some complain supplants MC in Mind/.

 

Symphony control has some of this signature with the echoing effects of the Reverberant. This set was also bold enough to boost DPS up which benefit one of the lowest DPS ATs.

 

All this to say Arsenal Control doesn't have a signature IMO. It has a theme and is mechanically serviceable as a set but it doesn't have a signature power(s). I think this is what makes sets fun and memorable via uniqueness. I get it that with limited assets and an emphasis on reuse it is probably difficult to craft up unique feeling power(s) within a set.

 

So Arsenal/ has:

• Theme = yes
• Mechanics = yes
• unique signature fun factor = no

 

 

 

[WindDemon21]

I could have sworn smoke canister was on a 60s rech but admit I didn't lay there much attention to it but this does seem like a spot where it should have a 60s recharge IMO. Even ice slick/ earthquake have always seemed like they should have had a 60s recharge too tbh as would liquid nitrogen.

 

So changes:

 

Sleep grenade: -damage moved here, -fly added

 

Smoke cannister: -kb added. rech lowered to 60s, -to hit bumped to 20% unenhanceable (or 15% enhanceable but for how much confuse slotting youll do hard to get -to hit slotted so better option is the 20% unenhanceable. Less max value but easier on slotting, fearsome stare has this amount, spectral terror does too, so its not out of the ordinary and the set could use it.) Edit: increase base acc as well to help with pseudopet failings.

 

Liquid nitrogen: rech lowered to 60s and enhance able for slow/kb ios and sets. (Fix this for ice slick/patch/earthquake too)

 

I think they should change these and see how the set feels then. It should be in a much better spot while still not having immobilize. Damage still sub-par but should help to keep them in the patches much better and debuff better to offset that more.

 

Also coding confuse/fear to cause containment would go a FAR way to helping the damage on controllers for this (and mind) so not sure why that hasn't been done yet.

 

Honestly these changes done even without coding confuse/fear for containment for now at least and I'd be pretty happy with the set. That and give the pet a fast cone attack and/or better shocking aura and make him always melee so the taunt actually helps more.

Edited February 12 by WindDemon21

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Death2Tyrants said:

The TLDR Slows and Sleeps are subpar controls. Arsenal has no unique signature.

I'm fairly certain that the powers team wants Smoke Canister to be the unique signature power.  The obvious issue is that the power still isn't good enough to beat Arctic Air (0.0s cast time and stronger effects) or Seeds of Confusion (has a cast time but more reliable instant Confuse paired with a lower CD).  So Arsenal's unique signature power is just a worse version of set-defining powers in 2 superior Control Sets.

 

Well that's what I *think* the powers team is trying to go for, since they refuse to explain any of the decisions or release a statement of intent for the set.  Arse Control has an identity now too: it's the Control Set with the most ground patches.  That's a workable identity.  It's just not a workable gameplay plan without stronger slows or an AoE Immobilize.

[WindDemon21]

28 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

I'm fairly certain that the powers team wants Smoke Canister to be the unique signature power.  The obvious issue is that the power still isn't good enough to beat Arctic Air (0.0s cast time and stronger effects) or Seeds of Confusion (has a cast time but more reliable instant Confuse paired with a lower CD).  So Arsenal's unique signature power is just a worse version of set-defining powers in 2 superior Control Sets.

 

Well that's what I *think* the powers team is trying to go for, since they refuse to explain any of the decisions or release a statement of intent for the set.  Arse Control has an identity now too: it's the Control Set with the most ground patches.  That's a workable identity.  It's just not a workable gameplay plan without stronger slows or an AoE Immobilize.

The -fly in the aoe sleep and -kb in canister will go a long way, and of course slotting slow/kb sets into nitrogen.

 

Then the bumped up 20% unenhanceable -to hit in canister and moving the -damage to the sleep would also help set signature with actually useful debuffs too.