Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[stryve]

Did some more Sleep Grenade testing at both low and high levels on Release Candidate 2.  First, I finally had the Combat Log open when Sleep Grenade failed to trigger:  looks like there's a To Hit check when Sleep Grenade is fired, and if it misses nothing else happens.  95% chance to hit with one +3 Acc SO, so it's no wonder we weren't seeing it often.  Also posted over in Bug Reports.

 

Decided to see what Sleep Grenade looked like right out of the box, so I went Street Sweeping in Atlas Park at level 4.  Only a single Acc SO slotted here.  A little dicey on such a large group, but it worked.

 

Next jumped to level 5 so I could slot one Sleep and one Recharge SO as well.  This went a lot more smoothly.

 

Still have to be wary of Bosses, or other Sleep resistant mobs, but still pretty smooth.  Also at level 5, 0x4 Lost with Bosses. (not shown is the first try against this group, where Sleep Grenade missed and I didn't notice.  Que frantic fleeing).

 

Jump up to level 10 to see how things work with Liquid Nitrogen.  I reiterate: still have to be wary of Bosses.  Especially when there's two in a group.  The rest of the group was held up enough to recover, though.  0x4 Hellions with Bosses.

 

Last of the low level tests was my old nemesis (not to be confused with Nemesis),  Vazhilok.  Sleep Grenade really showcased it's improvements over Build 4 here, though Smoke Canister helped as well.  Level 16 0x4 Vazhilok with bosses, though none in this group.

 

On the high end, I started with a +1x8 Safeguard Mission.  The Arachnos bank robbers were a bit too frantic of a fight to showcase Sleep Grenade, so I went and found a nice group of Carines outside.  Deliberately restricted myself to just Smoke Canister, Liquid Nitrogen, and Sleep Grenade until most of the group was down.  +1x8 Carnival of Shadows with bosses.

 

Next I took on the new Council.  Didn't restrict myself as much here, but still shows how much of a group can be shut down just with Arsenal Control.  +1x8 Council with bosses.

 

Finally, an unrestricted run against new Circle of Thorns at max difficulty.  +4x8 Circle of Thorns with bosses.

 

Overall I have to say Sleep Grenade is now in a pretty good place.  With only minor slotting it's very reliable at low levels, and remains useful all the way to end game (though I still prefer slotting for Slow rather than Sleep at 50).  This obviously will be subjective, depending on playstyle and player preference.  I haven't tested things with a team yet, but I expect it to be at least as effective as Static Field from Electric Control, which I do consider worth using in teams.

 

I saw some complaints early on about damaging sleeps, but personally I like that three of the five AoE powers in Arsenal Control can reliably trigger Smoke Canister's Confusion.  Only Smoke Canister itself and Tear Gas can't.  It wouldn't really make sense for the former, and the recharge is too long to pull it off anyway.  For the later, there isn't much use for Confusion when the enemies are busy purging their last three meals.

[Shin Magmus]

33 minutes ago, stryve said:

Did some more Sleep Grenade testing at both low and high levels on Release Candidate 2.  First, I finally had the Combat Log open when Sleep Grenade failed to trigger:  looks like there's a To Hit check when Sleep Grenade is fired, and if it misses nothing else happens.  95% chance to hit with one +3 Acc SO, so it's no wonder we weren't seeing it often.  Also posted over in Bug Reports.

If I understand this game's spaghetti code power execution like I think I do, then they just need to add an autohit flag to the "carrier" power that plants Sleep Grenade's psuedopets onto the ground.  For a lot of patch (psuedopet) powers, if you check City of Data, the power that comes up first is just a carrier.  It creates an entity and that entity has to be clicked on and looked at independently to see all the real power effects.  Hopefully the devs making sure all of the carriers are flagged as autohit is a simple fix.

[Vinceq98]

I am soo damn pleased with the changes from this set. I never would have thought the devs would update a set to be past average and I have to say ARSE control aint arse at all. Im soo excited to play this set. TY TY!!!

[Booper]

1 hour ago, ShinMagmus said:

If I understand this game's spaghetti code power execution like I think I do, then they just need to add an autohit flag to the "carrier" power that plants Sleep Grenade's psuedopets onto the ground.  For a lot of patch (psuedopet) powers, if you check City of Data, the power that comes up first is just a carrier.  It creates an entity and that entity has to be clicked on and looked at independently to see all the real power effects.  Hopefully the devs making sure all of the carriers are flagged as autohit is a simple fix.

This is a good guess, and is the first thing I'd check. But I think the issue is something else. Should be a simple fix once we get a look at the details. In the meantime, maybe test blaster glue arrow and see if you see a similar bug. Glue arrow may not be a great example as the pet is autohit, but I'm blanking on foe targeted pseudopets that create a patch that isn't auto-hit. If you can think of one, do try it.

[Booper]

The sleep Grenade bug should be fixed internally. As expected, there were remnants of when the power was foe-targeted causing the issue (location AoEs should have affected target be the caster, it was still set to foe). The disappearing act should not be seen in the next build, but if it is, let us know. 

[Videra]

On 2/15/2024 at 7:38 PM, Vinceq98 said:

I am soo damn pleased with the changes from this set. I never would have thought the devs would update a set to be past average and I have to say ARSE control aint arse at all. Im soo excited to play this set. TY TY!!!

 

I'll give them full credit where it's due, it feels like now they've done a lot to help it. I still wish it felt more appealing to play on a Controller, but ultimately this is something of a running theme with HC Powers. The two control sets they've made (setting aside Illu proliferation) definitely feel better on Dom. And with the reality that Powerhouse has said they want to re-examine containment a couple pages back, I really don't know what to say at this point.

Though, admittedly, I'd really like some inkling as to what that implication actually meant. All in due time, I suppose.

Edited February 17 by Videra

[Shin Magmus]

Yeah I feel like this set is workable enough for happiness now.  It's more annoying and click-heavy to play than a set with an AoE Immob, but you still get a similar result after clicking 3-4 times.  Like any of the Sleep sets, it can become stronger in calculated solo gameplay than it will be on teams: only because you have the option (mostly as a Dom) of nuking down the hardest targets one at a time while everyone else is perma-slept.  That's not fast, but it is safe.

[Nightmarer]

2 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

Yeah I feel like this set is workable enough for happiness now.  It's more annoying and click-heavy to play than a set with an AoE Immob, but you still get a similar result after clicking 3-4 times.  Like any of the Sleep sets, it can become stronger in calculated solo gameplay than it will be on teams: only because you have the option (mostly as a Dom) of nuking down the hardest targets one at a time while everyone else is perma-slept.  That's not fast, but it is safe.

Unfortunately for me (this is just MY opinion), these features you describe are exactly what will prevent me from playing this set. Will try it, of course, but if it is clicky set, will most likely delete the char sooner or later.

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, Nightmarer said:

Unfortunately for me (this is just MY opinion), these features you describe are exactly what will prevent me from playing this set. Will try it, of course, but if it is clicky set, will most likely delete the char sooner or later.

I think it is as clicky as you make it. Most spawns can be tackled with just smoke can and start attacking. Just depends on what your secondary brings.

 

The aoe clear speeds aren't plant level, but it is better than most realize with the improvements to nitrogen. Smoke Can isn't seeds of confusion, but it probably ranks 2nd for aoe confuse given the uptime.

 

I know people asked for it, but increasing the tohit debuff of smoke can actually makes the confuse less powerful. Pair it with a good aoe -def power and the spawns will shred themselves.

 

Single target damage is low, but at least you just focus on killing the remaining higher hp target because tri-cannon controls them.

 

Imo this is a good set. Only held hack by the fact a lot of people will struggle with character concepts that use a gun. 

[High_Beam]

Just ran around Bricks at Level 30 ARS/ARS Dom.  I was pleased with the set when it was first dropped then upset as it was tinkered with in the wrong direction but now its back to enjoyable.  I will be rolling one (or two like I did with Storm) and let actual game play over time feedback shape the future of the set.

 

Thanks devs.

[Voltak]

On 2/14/2024 at 4:41 PM, Frosticus said:

Good: patches inheriting caster buffs for short duration. Hopefully ported to all appropriate powers in game eventually.

 

Bad: that (caster buffs) didn't address/resolve base accuracy issues.

Example Smoke Can (base acc 1.0 =75% vs even con)*

*it is not getting the 1.05x weapon bonus

+0 up to +2 = easy enough to hit

+3 and +4 = 98% to 144% acc slotting required respectively  (in power+alpha only)

 

Bad: sleep nade. Still hoping it is returned to build 3 version. The targetted aoe worked properly and dropped a continuous patch for dominators that quickly (almost instantly after impact) put things to sleep. It worked how'd you'd expect. 

 

I'm not too worried about the base acc, I think that will be bumped up in the future after more data mining because even teaming doesn't resolve it.

 

 

I have been busy with other things and have been unable to post much but today I took some time and before I posted I read and read.  

But this right here, up to this point, is what I would like the developers to address and make changes before it goes live.  

Build 3 version of sleep 'nade, please.  

I do request to increase the base acc.  I can't see this hurting a single bit if we increase the base accuracy.  Most won't be using targeting drone because many won't be using the assault set.    So I hope that's not the concern.  

[Voltak]

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

 

 

I know people asked for it, but increasing the tohit debuff of smoke can actually makes the confuse less powerful. Pair it with a good aoe -def power and the spawns will shred themselves.

 

I request giving it a good -resist power, and not -defense.  

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Voltak said:

I request giving it a good -resist power, and not -defense.  

There's a 0% chance, no chance in hell, that this dev team gives a Control Set free access to -Res (not via procs).  Do you remember Sonic Blast?

[Booper]

3 hours ago, Voltak said:

I request giving it a good -resist power, and not -defense.  

The reason he is recommending -def is so it counteracts the to-hit debuff on the confused foes. You get far more impact converting their (let's say) 20% chance to-hit to a 50% chance to-hit after dropping a 30% defense debuff on all of them. 

[Voltak]

4 hours ago, Booper said:

The reason he is recommending -def is so it counteracts the to-hit debuff on the confused foes. You get far more impact converting their (let's say) 20% chance to-hit to a 50% chance to-hit after dropping a 30% defense debuff on all of them. 

Sure, and I know this.  I am not saying he was giving a bad suggestion at all.  I don't want anyone to misinterpret.  

But it would sure be so nice to have a -resist there instead for the actual dmg we end up doing, especially in team settings.  

WE got doms doing - defe, doing - to hit, doing -recharge, and slows, and -regen...
This set would be nice with - resists .  

Edited February 18 by Voltak

[SuperBear]

• Arsenal Control: Fixed issue with clones not inheriting control powers.

Is this a typo? Clones?

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, SuperBear said:

• Arsenal Control: Fixed issue with clones not inheriting control powers.

Is this a typo? Clones?

Probably refers to the Shadow Simalcrum in Posi1.

[Nightmarer]

23 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I think it is as clicky as you make it.

Fair enough. As I said, I'll give it a go, I just don't have high hopes on it since I find the previous sets released entirely made by the Homecoming team, are way too mandatory of a determined playstyle and so far, it has not suited me.

[Frosticus]

While I've lamented the lack of proc opportunities in this set I must commend the set IO variety available. This is among the easiest perma-doms I have built and it exemplars down super well.*

 

* not saying other control sets can't do similar, just that arsenal is very good at it.

 

5 purple/ATO sets + lotg+ pet set = 63.75%* rech from my primary and very little of it feels like wasted slotting.

 

That let's me go ham on procs in my assault set and epics. 

 

Looking forward to it.

[ApocalypsePlease]

Having poked around with this as an arse/arse dom vs vanguard mobs at x4, the only real complaints I have are that occasionally I was noticed through my stealth and smoke can which resulted in my getting attacked, since the confuse requires damage being done, and that I wish the pet had some manner of AoE to help it taunt things better.  Regardless I am looking forward to playing this set on live! I’ve wanted a grenade based set for some time and this makes me very happy.

[WindDemon21]

On 2/15/2024 at 6:00 PM, ShinMagmus said:

We're also all still trying to test it solo, near universally... which is fine (and it highlights the issues with the Confuse that you're mentioning), but I think the Confuse might perform very differently in full team scenarios.  With 7 other players all attacking the enemies... and imagine if one of them is a Mastermind, it might swing the other direction and be insane.  The main thing I don't know about the Confuse mechanics is the "lockout" period between rolls for Confuse, when an enemy takes damage while in the area of effect.  It's "like" almost any other Control set except that it focuses on patches more, and at least all the powers work now.  Earth Control and Ice Control are both similar, but Earth Control can't Confuse and Ice Control can't stun: and no other Control set can debuff damage: which will only come into play on AV and GM fights but it's still something for Tear Gas to do.

Symphony can, though that set has its own slew of problems starting with that power too lol. Also, a short duration -damage on a 4 minute low base acc aoe hold isn't going to do much of anything, hence where it should be in the aoe sleep power.

 

But yeah on to that, it would be better on teams, but it should also work enough on its own within the set for any combination of power sets to go with it. Having it just proc on its own like static field only confuse would eliminate all the issues with how it works right now.

[WindDemon21]

Still seems that the slow on the aoe sleep's slow should be bumped up some to help keep in the patches. But also big thing, is fix nitrogen/ice slick/patch to accept slow/kb enhancements/sets. Kb for those who want to make the power a pseudo-wall, and slow sets for obvious reasons to keep enemies in it better. This would be a key power for the ice mistral set. (especially if the procs could be coded on the KD damage the power does so that procs would actually work on a power like this?)

 

And yeah the pet is still really lackluster. Didn't see any comment on it's taunt being bugged to only 2 targets instead of 4 as well, but it needs to go into melee so it doesn't split up the mobs, and have another attack/aoe as well.

 

Also regarding smoke cannister, has anyone tested the purple contagious confusion proc? That's one of the main powers that really helps boost confuse powers, but I imagine the coding of the confuse happening on hit may make procs in general just not work on this power as seems to be the case with many new homecoming powers (they're clearly trying to avoid making procs useful on a lot of new stuff like chain powers). Tried testing myself, hard to tell with this power and that proc, but tried the psy damage proc from the troller ato and didn't see it happen once 😕 so doublt you'd get much from the CC proc. Yet another new power that won't proc :/. Definitely going to push the power to feeling like it should be 45s duration at least, 60s rech would make enough sense as well IMO with how janky the confuse works since it's also more of a debuff power than consistent control like a regular aoe control is. This would be totally valid. (likewise on the rech for nitrogen/ice slick/earthquake would make enough sense at 60s as well as soft control versus their 90s rech aoe stun counterparts that do full lockdown)

[ZorkNemesis]

4 hours ago, ApocalypsePlease said:

Having poked around with this as an arse/arse dom vs vanguard mobs at x4, the only real complaints I have are that occasionally I was noticed through my stealth and smoke can which resulted in my getting attacked, since the confuse requires damage being done, and that I wish the pet had some manner of AoE to help it taunt things better.  Regardless I am looking forward to playing this set on live! I’ve wanted a grenade based set for some time and this makes me very happy.

 

Worth pointing out, Vanguard Shield/Sword have exceptionally high perception.  They can aggro Stalkers through Hide.  Cloaking Device and Smoke Bombs usually aren't enough to completely blind them.