Let's talk about the Knockdown Proc.

[Galaxy Brain]

So, it's been a while since homecoming has been live and the availability of the Knockback to Knockdown proc has changed the game for tons of powers and sets.

 

This is more on the feedback side of this sub forum, but I feel this has been overwhelmingly beneficial for certain powers such as Storm's Tornado to make the power into something that is not only powerful, but actually works in tandem with the set as the Tornado will grind away and enemies and keep them in the "vortex" of other storm powers.

 

What other major winners are there from the proc? Are there powers that do not benefit as much if at all, or worse yet actively get worse due to needing the slot?

Edited September 17, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[marcussmythe]

My attempt to use ‘chance for knockdown’ in Rain of Fire was totally underwhelming.  I knew not to anticipate an Ice Patch level of slip and slide - though once can dream - but what I got was no noticed knockdowns at all in play.  No doubt some minion in some group fell down once - but I did not notice.

 

The KB to KD seems to give much more value - Im sending some to the Energy Blaster in my SG.

[RussHood]

Other winners include but not limited to: Energy blast/manipulation, storm, fire control: bonfire, any nova/resurect with kb component

[Primantis]

It turns Bonfire into a mediocre version of Earthquake, that also does a bit of damage on the side.

 

It's also a lot of fun in Gale. With enough recharge (and it doesn't take a lot) you can essentially "Perma KD" entire groups at once. And sometimes it will double tick and cause them to fall down twice. Quite a bit of fun!

 

 

While I haven't personally tried (nor seen) it. It should turn Hand Clap into a useful soft control power as well.

[Solvernia]

Putting Overwhelming Force proc into Bonfire alongside Annihilation's -res proc turns it into the absolute best form of CC a blaster can have.

[Auroxis]

The major loser is Peacebringer, because it can only slot it into one attack while it's needed on at least three.

[Primantis]

The major loser is Peacebringer, because it can only slot it into one attack while it's needed on at least three.

 

Thats the Universal Damage Proc.

 

The "Overwhelming Force" proc can go into any power that takes KB IOs,  and there's no limit as the IO is non-unique. (I dont think they'd be limited by the Rule of 5 but I cant confirm that)

[Galaxy Brain]

Wonder if it's possible to datamine how often it is slotted and into what powers?

[Redlynne]

Wonder if it's possible to datamine how often it is slotted and into what powers?

 

Should be ...

[Galaxy Brain]

Wonder if it's possible to datamine how often it is slotted and into what powers?

 

Should be ...

 

Where I'm heading with this is like, if it is seen that like 90% of the time that [Tornado] is picked, it has the proc installed it may be worth just converting the base power....?

[srmalloy]

The "Overwhelming Force" proc can go into any power that takes KB IOs,  and there's no limit as the IO is non-unique. (I dont think they'd be limited by the Rule of 5 but I cant confirm that)

 

The Rule of Five is that you can't have more than five of the exact same set bonus. The KB-to-KD effect is the direct effect of the enhancement, not a set bonus, so theoretically it's not affected by the Rule of Five. At least as I understand it.

[Shinobu]

The major loser is Peacebringer, because it can only slot it into one attack while it's needed on at least three.

 

Thats the Universal Damage Proc.

 

The "Overwhelming Force" proc can go into any power that takes KB IOs,  and there's no limit as the IO is non-unique. (I dont think they'd be limited by the Rule of 5 but I cant confirm that)

 

I'm pretty sure Overwhelming Force is a unique set, and that's why Sudden Acceleration exists at all.  But maybe by "the IO is non-unique" you meant the Sudden Acceleration IO?

[Harrow]

Yeah, Overwhelming Force is unique, so you can only have one of its KB-to-KD IOs. Sudden Acceleration will help fill that gap, though.

[Galaxy Brain]

It appears the consensus is overwhelmingly positive for the KB to KD proc being a net boost to powers that take it, to the point where it's almost as if those powers have an "IO tax" that demands the use of it to function.

 

For said powers, is there an actual loss from having that slot used vs putting another boost?

[Redlynne]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

For said powers, is there an actual loss from having that slot used vs putting another boost?

In solo play ... yes.

In group play ... no.

[_NOPE_]

Luckily, you can have multiple builds, though I haven't yet played with that and tested how it works yet. I'm thinking a solo build and a team build sounds like a great idea for this!

[Sura]

On 6/18/2019 at 9:38 AM, Primantis said:

It turns Bonfire into a mediocre version of Earthquake, that also does a bit of damage on the side.

 

It's also a lot of fun in Gale. With enough recharge (and it doesn't take a lot) you can essentially "Perma KD" entire groups at once. And sometimes it will double tick and cause them to fall down twice. Quite a bit of fun!

 

 

While I haven't personally tried (nor seen) it. It should turn Hand Clap into a useful soft control power as well.

I have it in the Electric version of Hand Clap and it works great.  No damage, but dependable knockdown and a good chance for disorient.

[Galaxy Brain]

The group vs solo is a very good point. Or even solo vs small team vs big team...

 

What if there was a way to apply it to an alternate build overall? I recall that build swapping is fairly easy, even mid mission (tho it restarts cooldowns) and could alleviate the supposed problem of needing to dedicate slots.

[Bossk_Hogg]

55 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It appears the consensus is overwhelmingly positive for the KB to KD proc being a net boost to powers that take it, to the point where it's almost as if those powers have an "IO tax" that demands the use of it to function.

 

For said powers, is there an actual loss from having that slot used vs putting another boost?

For certain powers, like Bonfire, I feel the IO tax is fair. Previously it was area denial, rather than harder control. Fire Control didnt really need a boost, already having the highest damage, so it shouldnt have been in the running for best control as well.

 

For energy blast, I feel it is an unfair tax. KB is supposed to be a benefit (even though it frequently isn't). Then why do they have to pay to remove a boost? Energy Blast and Peacebringers are already on the low side of damage, and cutting them off from a 6 slot set bonus in powers is an unfair tax on already weaker sets.

 

I still strongly favor a Null the Gull option to allow you to turn all your KB into KD. And if someone wants to have some kb and some kd, then they can use the enhancers for more granularity.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Sunsettehad a great thread about alternate IOs for KD or just converting KB to other effects as well, which could be great!

[Redlynne]

12 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I still strongly favor a Null the Gull option to allow you to turn all your KB into KD. And if someone wants to have some kb and some kd, then they can use the enhancers for more granularity.

 

Counter-proposal.

An Inherent (as in everyone gets it) Toggle that modifies ALL Knockback to "clamp" at maximum MAG 0.75 regardless of how much MAG is output.

Turn Toggle ON to convert "all" Knockback into KnockDOWN.

Turn Toggle OFF to allow "all" Knockback to be "full power" KnockBACK.

And then leave it up to the Player(s) to decide what the current circumstances call for.

 

That would remove the KB>KD IO tax problem for every Archetype.

[Vadavim]

I do find that this IO has really encouraged me to pick up powers I normally wouldn't (for fear of how people in a team would react), and it's actually made some powers more useful than before! I can't help but wonder why the original devs did not explore this kind of change before (other than the universal damage IO): were there balance reasons they were concerned about?

 

I like the idea about having a toggle (for Knockback -> Knockdown). Having that level of control for powersets like Storm and Energy would be AWESOME! However, I'm reluctant about handing this out freely. While I'm concerned about the potential IO tax we're seeing here (I feel like a lot of these powers I wouldn't use without the IO), I also like the idea that there is a meaningful choice or tradeoff involved in getting this benefit. Remember that one of the changes to immobilize, to make it more useful, was that it would convert knockback to knockdown. I really like how it encourages teamwork with controllers / dominators (root 'em, then boot 'em!). I feel like that benefit would be lost if we could easily convert knockbacks without any tradeoff like an IO or a bought power.  

Edited July 25, 2019 by Vadavim

[_NOPE_]

Meh, IOs are cheap in the modern market. I'm not worried about the cost.

[archgemini24]

I feel like Peacebringers are the big winners and losers of the KB->KD enhancement. Energy Blast users, too. Runner-up winners are Fire Controllers and Storm Summoners (Fire/Storm together lumps them in with PBs and Energy Blast).

 

Winners in that it makes their sets play better together (all that AoE in Luminous Detonation, Solar Flare, Dawn Strike, and Photon Seekers, and only the first attack launched is usable). For Fire controllers, Bonfire is amazing with the conversion to KD. I might lose some damage, but I can open with Bonfire or Flashfire + Fire Cages and go to work. At worst, the enhancement makes Bonfire a "power-tax" in that it goes from an almost skippable power to a must-have.

 

PBs are losers in that it really does feel like an IO tax on an AT that already finds itself starving for slots (Tri-form, in particular). My human-form only PB uses 6 Sudden Accelerations in his build (Gleaming Blast, Radiant Strike, and the 4 AoEs previously mentioned). That is 5 6-slot bonuses I am potentially missing and a 5-slot bonus (I have a FF proc in Solar Flare). Energy Blast and Fire/Storm would be in a similar boat.

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Meh, IOs are cheap in the modern market. I'm not worried about the cost.

Slots are a big cost.