Fortuna or Widow?

[Azrik]

I can see pros and cons to both, but I'd like to get the opinions of others. I currently have a lvl 20 widow trainee and I'm debating which one I should go with. I'm leaning toward fortuna, but which do you all think is better?

[Stealthrider]

It depends on a few things.

 

Do you prefer to deal ranged damage or melee? Fortunata for ranged, Night Widow for melee.

 

Do you prefer heavier team support or heavier damage? Fortunata for team support, Night Widow for damage.

 

Do you want to solo difficult content? Technically both but Widow will have an easier time of it and a higher ceiling.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

The other big difference is damage type. Widow's mostly do Lethal with a side order of Toxic. Fortunata's do Psionic almost exclusively. Lethal damage is resisted in small to moderate amounts by a lot of enemies. Psionic is resisted by fewer enemies but those that do resist it resist it a LOT and tend to be clustered at level 50.

 

So at level 50 Widows will be minorly annoyed by everyone while Fortunatas will be extremely annoyed by some enemy types and have no issues with others.

[Flux Vector]

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian.

 

Neither widow should be ranged.  The optimal path for fortunatas as well as NWs is to use the claw powers.  Both widows have the same top tier attack chain:  Follow Up -> Lunge -> Strike -> Swipe.  Night widows can replace every other Swipe with Slash for a very small DPS gain but to entirely replace Swipe with Slash you need to use Ageless Destiny, Geas of the Kind Ones, or an external buff.  The fortunata psychic powers are bad not because they are psychic, but because their power stats are much worse (much slower animation speeds), and because follow up really is that good.

 

They're about equal for soloing hard content.  Fortunatas are mildly better at dealing with nasty crowds via psychic wail and CCs, particularly Confuse (the best thing to do with a nasty enemy is to get it to kick the crap out of its friends).  Night widows have placate and elude for making their lives a little easier against AVs and GMs, but it's not going to be decisive just convenient.  Both of them will lean heavily on Aid Self in those scenarios.  You can do anything with either, and you'll use roughly the same tactics in the process.

 

NWs don't do substantially more damage - one slash every 2nd cycle of your attack chain doesn't add a ton to your output (under 10dps as I recall).  AOE probably averages out, though NWs can more consistently use psychic scream because it doesn't make you redraw claws; offsetting that is that psychic wail for fortunatas is a lovely power and with the recharge a fortunata build wants anyway you can wreck about 2 spawns a minute with it.

 

The main difference is you can get a NW close to their maximal potential without any weird build tricks, PVP IOs, or purples.  Fortunatas need a 1%'er build to get there.  That's really the only practical difference besides psychic wail vs elude.

[Erydanus]

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian.

What you say makes a lot of sense. I've been really struggling with rebuilding my Fortunata. I remember I kept certain claw powers despite the redraw issue, but also had psi stuff that I remember unloading more often in a big team situation like a mayhem. I just couldn't remember what mix I had going but this gives me some helpful insight. I actually ended up doing a very traditional Night Widow build at 24 and opening up the second build slot and my wallet and doing a Fortunata on 2 and going 100% psi just because if nothing else I needed to get a feel for the powers again. I'm already missing having claws on that build though.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian.

 

Neither widow should be ranged.  The optimal path for fortunatas as well as NWs is to use the claw powers.

I'm not going to disagree with your assertion from a damage viewpoint (largely because I don't know either way). However from a practical viewpoint I think if someone says "I want to make a Fortunata" there's an unstated assumption that they want to use the Psi blast powers even if those are suboptimal. It's like if someone came into the Scrapper forum and asked for advice on a Sword/Inv scrapper, telling them that a Dark/Shield scrapper would be better is technically correct but also fundamentally useless for them.

[Wintervoid]

I'm not going to disagree with your assertion from a damage viewpoint (largely because I don't know either way). However from a practical viewpoint I think if someone says "I want to make a Fortunata" there's an unstated assumption that they want to use the Psi blast powers even if those are suboptimal. It's like if someone came into the Scrapper forum and asked for advice on a Sword/Inv scrapper, telling them that a Dark/Shield scrapper would be better is technically correct but also fundamentally useless for them.

 

I am sure you are right for many, but for me, I wanted Crowd Control with good defense and offense more than I cared about using mental powers.  Right now it plays like a Softcapped Dominator that can fall back on Control if things get out of hand.  Basically, Damage Primary with a control Secondary and a dash of Team Buffs on the side. 

[Flux Vector]

I assume people want to make the most effective character, especially if they are asking for help on a build.  That implies that they aren't getting what they want out of what they're doing, and they aren't going to know what's better if nobody tells them.

 

Widow claws (either side) are better DPS than scrapper/stalker claws, and are in the ballpark with scrapper/stalker dark melee as one of the most damaging melee character setups you can possibly run.  Top 10, if not top 5.  I'm having trouble trying to figure out how to do titan weapons short of levelling one to cap and then testing it on a pylon.

[Erydanus]

I'm not going to disagree with your assertion from a damage viewpoint (largely because I don't know either way). However from a practical viewpoint I think if someone says "I want to make a Fortunata" there's an unstated assumption that they want to use the Psi blast powers even if those are suboptimal.

I don't believe Flux said that. I believe Flux said the claw powers and attack chains were the best core for either path and then pointed out that Fortunata's Psychic Wail was great damage and a fair trade-off for Widows getting Elude.

 

In other words what Flux said was he sees them both as being very similar to Blood Widows with Night Widows picking up a more usable Psychic Scream because it doesn't cause DPS loss from redraw and in comparison Fortunatas sticking closer to Blood Widow with only tossing in the big psychic nuke. But that is just for their core attack chain. Obviously with the Fort you can take ranged attacks and use them before closing to melee range or on runners. But as a core recommendation I think it's solid advice for consideration. It also really highlights the strengths of both variations. I personally found it was very insightful, even if I do have a 100% psychic Fortunata build myself because I know I'm not going to stick with it I just wanted to try everything out.

[Flexabulous]

Great discussion, but I'm not solo'ing GMs. I just made my Fortunata-I made a Night Widow First because I didn't know how the level process worked-she auto respec's at 24(?), and boom I started the tier 2 choices, in build 2 I went Fortunata. I was lucky, someone fire farmed her to 38 and I jumped in for the patron power arc for the first time, ever- I think. As a farm product I feel a little obligated to give back, so I am running teams on Everlasting Red Side and I love her in teams- L O V E. She is not the toughest, her animations take longer, but she rips em' up and keeps chargin'. It's not an auto battle phone game-its meant to be a virtual super being experience-and she achieves it. Psychic wail, 1 accuracy and 3 damage, and she is EPIC. OMG. I kind of wanted to be able to make a pseudo Fortunata outfit but can't find the coat tails-do we only get the one? But I L O V E her. Great posting on the routine, but I'm not here to optimize and make her business effeicient-I'm here to PLAY. WROOM WROOM, here comes the waaapawaaaapapapapapapa...waaaaaahpaaaaahwaaapapapapapa, lol. Man that does get annoying, like the Alpha wolf for MM pets.

 

[High_Beam]

My two cents is based less on the kinds of fata points mentioned above but rather change in play-style.  I have run up a Psi/Psi Blaster, a MC/Pain troller, Emp/Psi Defender so I naturally initially went Fortunate.  But I then said, "Self, how about you try something different." So I respec'd her into a WIdow and have found it to be fun-ish.  I am not a melee kind of person but there are moments when she is enjoyable.  The point is, I was tired of ranged psionic characters so chose Widow.  Make the fun from what you find fun.

[Voltak]

On 6/20/2019 at 3:24 PM, Stealthrider said:

It depends on a few things.

 

Do you prefer to deal ranged damage or melee? Fortunata for ranged, Night Widow for melee.

 

Do you prefer heavier team support or heavier damage? Fortunata for team support, Night Widow for damage.

 

Do you want to solo difficult content? Technically both but Widow will have an easier time of it and a higher ceiling.

I do a lot of difficult content, in fact, the easy stuff I tend to avoid like a plague.  CoH Is  mostly just too easy and I need to seek for the higher tiers of challenge to have any fun.  There is indeed a world of difficult content in CoH if you really want to find it and do it.  
After some time doing these challenges I can safely say Fortunatas are far and away much better at coping difficult content. 

Range is A HUGE and vast defensive weapon.  
Crowd control is just under that. 

There is very little that a hovering Fortunata cannot manage to survive. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Voltak

[KaizenSoze]

4 hours ago, Voltak said:

I do a lot of difficult content, in fact, the easy stuff I tend to avoid like a plague.  CoH Is  mostly just too easy and I need to seek for the higher tiers of challenge to have any fun.  There is indeed a world of difficult content in CoH if you really want to find it and do it.  
After some time doing these challenges I can safely say Fortunatas are far and away much better at coping difficult content. 

Range is A HUGE and vast defensive weapon.  
Crowd control is just under that. 

There is very little that a hovering Fortunata cannot manage to survive. 

I agree that Fortunatas are vastly better than Night Widows in most content.

 

Night Widow have two advantages over Fortunata, one is minor, the other is only for extreme content.

 

Night Widows have a slight single target damage advantage, that can be closed by procs. Procs have trade offs, but A Fort can achieve a pylon kill in the same times as a proc'ed out Night Widow.

 

Night Widows can be made incredible durable, more durable than some tanks/brute. I know this because I completed an 801.2 4x8 solo with my Night Tank build in 1:45. There is a two hour time limit. Only one death. But you pay for that in low damage. It's not actually that fun to play, it's like a tanker w/o the high target caps.

 

I would always recommend a Fortunata over a Night Widow. Forts are what dominators should have been.

[Bopper]

19 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Night Widow have two advantages over Fortunata, one is minor, the other is only for extreme content.

I'll extend that to 3 advantages. ST Damage is slightly better (as you mentioned) but it would be all/mostly melee range. It is easier to perma Mind Link (although it's fairly easy to do the same with Fortunata on an end game build). The third is the most significant, in my opinion, which is access to Mental Training which gives a nice recharge buff and slow resistance. When I design my hybrid fortunatas, the loss of mental training is the hardest hit.

[Voltak]

7 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I agree that Fortunatas are vastly better than Night Widows in most content.

 

Night Widow have two advantages over Fortunata, one is minor, the other is only for extreme content.

 

Night Widows have a slight single target damage advantage, that can be closed by procs. Procs have trade offs, but A Fort can achieve a pylon kill in the same times as a proc'ed out Night Widow.

 

Night Widows can be made incredible durable, more durable than some tanks/brute. I know this because I completed an 801.2 4x8 solo with my Night Tank build in 1:45. There is a two hour time limit. Only one death. But you pay for that in low damage. It's not actually that fun to play, it's like a tanker w/o the high target caps.

 

I would always recommend a Fortunata over a Night Widow. Forts are what dominators should have been.

When Widows/Fortunatas firs came out, this point about Fortunatas being what Doms should have been was especially salient in PVP play. 

Fortunatas immediately jumped above Dominators and blasters by miles and miles in PVP. 

They combined the best of both. 
It was especially difficult to deal with someone who could blast you and control you and either one with special deadliness. 

Then issue 14 came around and Fortunatas were nerfed because other players cried too much. 
Instead of buffing doms they nerfed the Fort.   Then later they buffed Doms but left the Fort nerfed (damage wise). 

Night Widows never presented that danger to other players like the Fortunata did. 

Picture this, a stalker was VERY worried about a Fotunata could see them, like NO ONE ELSE in the PVP zone could, but.... THE FORT WOULD KILL HIM FROM RANGE with insane damage and the Stalker would NEVER SEE the Fortunata until  too late. 

Ok, this is all PVP, but that is or was another way the Fortunata was much superior to Night Widow, and to be honest, there is no harder or challenging aspect to this game than PVP.   PVE is vastly easier compared to PVP, yet Fortunatas were always much better. 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Voltak