Universal Fitness

[Rudra]

We already get the Fitness pool as an inherent on all our characters. So my suggestion is to just give it to everything. Every mob in every faction, every pet/henchman, every random NPC. Why? Well for starters, that will help pets keep up with their summoning player character. It will also enable escorts to get lost less often while following through large empty hallways. And it gives mobs more of a chance in that they can keep their END pools up higher and run away faster. (That last part about running away faster is guaranteed to be a negative point for others.)

[megaericzero]

Just curious: why not just boost the respective stats instead?

 

Fitness is all auto powers, NPCs can't enhance themselves, and I'm guessing non-combat NPCs can't have powers anyway so a chunk of escorts wouldn't even benefit from it.

[FupDup]

The biggest issue I can think of is that giving every enemy NPC stamina would be an indirect nerf to sapping. A secondary issue might be health making giant monster and AV regen more annoying to burn through. So maybe not quite universal...escort NPCs and player pets would probably be fine. 

[Rudra]

Because as far as mobs go? (Regardless of pet or enemy.) Simply adding the powers to them may be both easier and faster than going through their respective stats and improving them. It's the various civilians that need to be rescued that cause me concern since they lack powers and I don't know if they can have powers added to them. So in their case, it may be necessary to go through them and boost their stats.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, FupDup said:

The biggest issue I can think of is that giving every enemy NPC stamina would be an indirect nerf to sapping. A secondary issue might be health making giant monster and AV regen more annoying to burn through. So maybe not quite universal...escort NPCs and player pets would probably be fine. 

That is also part of the point. There has been repeated calls for tougher enemies. Well, universal Fitness won't be as big a boost as it seems you think it may be (since unslotted Stamina is a 25% boost and mobs won't have enhancements), and it makes mobs slightly tougher to deal with. (Edit: Face it, any buff to enemies will be argued as a nerf to players, even by several players calling for tougher enemies I'd wager, unless it was say strictly HP or new attacks.) (Edit again: And even buffing mob HP or damage resistance would likely be argued as nerfing player damage.)

Edited January 27 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Simply adding the powers to them may be both easier and faster than going through their respective stats and improving them.

 

Insert SCR here but I would assume all NPCs spawn with stats based on their rank from a generic table before any powers come into play, whereas adding Fitness to them all - even as one power - would require appending it to each and every creature.

 

(I'm assuming based on the fact that the wikis list NPCs' resistances as well as other flavored passive abilities like flight or self-immobilization as an auto power in their profile instead of those just being intrinsic aspects of their existences, though I suppose a good majority of those profiles were written before Surveillance was a thing.)

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

 

Insert SCR here but I would assume all NPCs spawn with stats based on their rank from a generic table before any powers come into play, whereas adding Fitness to them all - even as one power - would require appending it to each and every creature.

 

(I'm assuming based on the fact that the wikis list NPCs' resistances as well as other flavored passive abilities like flight or self-immobilization as an auto power in their profile instead of those just being intrinsic aspects of their existences, though I suppose a good majority of those profiles were written before Surveillance was a thing.)

Boost their individual stats. Add a line of code that applies Fitness to everything instead of just PCs. I don't care either way. I'm just looking at rectifying a few very common complaints: pets can't keep up (an especially common complaint among MMs) and escorts get lost even if you lack any stealth powers and move at a walk through empty hallways or open fields because our characters are faster. Giving it to enemies as well just seems fair to me and should help address the other complaint that enemies need to be tougher.

[Vanden]

This seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

This seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Then you haven't been paying attention to the forums.

[FupDup]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is also part of the point. There has been repeated calls for tougher enemies. Well, universal Fitness won't be as big a boost as it seems you think it may be (since unslotted Stamina is a 25% boost and mobs won't have enhancements), and it makes mobs slightly tougher to deal with. (Edit: Face it, any buff to enemies will be argued as a nerf to players, even by several players calling for tougher enemies I'd wager, unless it was say strictly HP or new attacks.) (Edit again: And even buffing mob HP or damage resistance would likely be argued as nerfing player damage.)

My thoughts on the tougher enemies thing is that it should be handled Diablo-style with enemies scaling based on the player count (with a max limit somewhere so leagues aren't boned). Some of the recent NPC revamps like Council end up making solo play much slower but have relatively small impact on team play, which kind of defeats the purpose given that team play is what creates those "enemies die too fast" situations in the first place. 

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, FupDup said:

My thoughts on the tougher enemies thing is that it should be handled Diablo-style with enemies scaling based on the player count (with a max limit somewhere so leagues aren't boned). Some of the recent NPC revamps like Council end up making solo play much slower but have relatively small impact on team play, which kind of defeats the purpose given that team play is what creates those "enemies die too fast" situations in the first place. 

I would really rather not. Not a fan of 1-hit kills from enemies, and if you had even a small team, bosses would do that to you in Diablo. (Diablo II was the best example of this what with Baal(?) and that giant slug/worm thing boss, and how they ramped up in HP and damage against even just a team of 3.)

[FupDup]

Just now, Rudra said:

I would really rather not. Not a fan of 1-hit kills from enemies, and if you had even a small team, bosses would do that to you in Diablo. (Diablo II was the best example of this what with Baal(?) and that giant slug/worm thing boss, and how they ramped up in HP and damage against even just a team of 3.)

I was referring to the health/resistance portion for scaling more so than damage. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

/jranger

[Psyonico]

Sapping is already third rate in this game... Make it even worse? No thanks.

[SupaFreak]

My thumbs up is partial thumbs up.

 

For Henchmen and NPCs (and maybe enemies) be awarded increased run speed - YES - the game for players in that aspect has outpaced the old design.

Don't really need the rest of fitness aspect for pets, NPCs or enemies IMO.

 

So I would be down with this if Fitness = they jog often so move faster.

[Rudra]

If all the devs do is boost everything's speed to match the Swift boost our characters get and that is all they do? That would be fine with me. I both understand and don't understand the opposition to Health and Stamina, but the push back was very much expected. I personally think giving enemies Stamina and Health would be good to do, but I also realize I am either in a small minority or am the lone voice with that opinion. The thing I'm keeping in mind is that yes, the biggest complaint about the game being too easy is from teams, but it is also being voiced from players soloing TFs/SFs. So while it would slightly, and I'm of the opinion it would only be very slightly, make it take longer to defeat a mob or sap the mob's END to 0, I disagree about the extent to which some claims have been made on this thread. (As someone who has elec' characters routinely zero enemy END bars, even on characters that focus on damage rather than END modification, I don't see how sapping is 3rd rate in this game or how a 25% Recovery buff will make it as worthless as the opinions against seem it will become.)

 

(Moved from wrong thread to this thread.)

[SupaFreak]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If all the devs do is boost everything's speed to match the Swift boost our characters get and that is all they do? That would be fine with me. I both understand and don't understand the opposition to Health and Stamina, but the push back was very much expected. I personally think giving enemies Stamina and Health would be good to do, but I also realize I am either in a small minority or am the lone voice with that opinion. The thing I'm keeping in mind is that yes, the biggest complaint about the game being too easy is from teams, but it is also being voiced from players soloing TFs/SFs. So while it would slightly, and I'm of the opinion it would only be very slightly, make it take longer to defeat a mob or sap the mob's END to 0, I disagree about the extent to which some claims have been made on this thread. (As someone who has elec' characters routinely zero enemy END bars, even on characters that focus on damage rather than END modification, I don't see how sapping is 3rd rate in this game or how a 25% Recovery buff will make it as worthless as the opinions against seem it will become.)

 

(Moved from wrong thread to this thread.)

 

Main reason for me is - the Endurance sapping aspect for players - not so much the Regen aspect at all really.  If enemies were to get more End Recovery - then I would want those who love their End sapping characters to have their powers boosted to offset it.

 

For all 7 of my MMs - I think only my Thugs seldomly have End issues.  Primarily the Brawler boss one.  Is it an issue with other MMs I'm not aware of?

I haven't played Electric Blast since Live - I know the Sap aspect got boosted by HC - but on Live, I was disheartened with how little I sapped End with all the enhancements I dropped in the powers.  I don't want to make anyone feel their Electric powers suck... at sucking.

 

[Rudra]

I know my Elec/Willpower Brute devours the END bars of anything that doesn't obligingly just curl up and die. My Elec/Elec Tanker obliterates the END bars of everything I've fought so far that also hasn't obligingly just curled up and died, though EB version of Arc Flash was problematic to bottom out, that Tanker is only level 28, and that Tanker is missing more than 3/4s of my enhancements still. My 2 Elec/* Dominators obliterate everything's END bars without even trying. So I'm at a loss for the sapping is 3rd rate in the game comment and mildly frustrated at the apparent sentiment that a 25% REC boost to mobs will make them unable to be sapped, or at least unable to be sapped effectively. Who knows though? Maybe a 25% REC boost will make mobs impervious to being sapped like the sentiment on this thread feels like they are saying. (Edit: And the only AV my Brute is afraid of is Lord Recluse because he is the only one that has devoured my END bar with that character, preventing me from doing the same to him. Unless I pop enough purples that he misses me so I can bottom out his END bar.)

Edited January 28 by Rudra

[JasperStone]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

I know my Elec/Willpower Brute devours the END bars of anything that doesn't obligingly just curl up and die. My Elec/Elec Tanker obliterates the END bars of everything I've fought so far that also hasn't obligingly just curled up and died, though EB version of Arc Flash was problematic to bottom out, that Tanker is only level 28, and that Tanker is missing more than 3/4s of my enhancements still. My 2 Elec/* Dominators obliterate everything's END bars without even trying. So I'm at a loss for the sapping is 3rd rate in the game comment and mildly frustrated at the apparent sentiment that a 25% REC boost to mobs will make them unable to be sapped, or at least unable to be sapped effectively. Who knows though? Maybe a 25% REC boost will make mobs impervious to being sapped like the sentiment on this thread feels like they are saying. (Edit: And the only AV my Brute is afraid of is Lord Recluse because he is the only one that has devoured my END bar with that character, preventing me from doing the same to him. Unless I pop enough purples that he misses me so I can bottom out his END bar.)

Asking because I don't know.

 

Endurance draining an enemy works differently than how it affects our characters.

Even at 1 endurance, an enemy can still use any power?

 

or am I remembering wrong?

 

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Asking because I don't know.

 

Endurance draining an enemy works differently than how it affects our characters.

Even at 1 endurance, an enemy can still use any power?

 

or am I remembering wrong?

 

You are remembering wrong. Mobs still have an END cost for their powers. If you can keep their END bars bottomed out or near bottomed out, it limits their options for attacks depending on how much they recover END before you sap it back to 0 again. If they have Brawl, they can use that even at 0 END because it has no END cost. If they have attacks with low END cost, depending on how much they recover between your draining, they can throw one of those as well. Their more powerful attacks however, are typically unavailable to them so long as you keep their END bar low enough.

[JasperStone]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You are remembering wrong. Mobs still have an END cost for their powers. If you can keep their END bars bottomed out or near bottomed out, it limits their options for attacks depending on how much they recover END before you sap it back to 0 again. If they have Brawl, they can use that even at 0 END because it has no END cost. If they have attacks with low END cost, depending on how much they recover between your draining, they can throw one of those as well. Their more powerful attacks however, are typically unavailable to them so long as you keep their END bar low enough.

Thank you.

Then I think your proposal merits attention

[megaericzero]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:49 PM, Rudra said:

The thing I'm keeping in mind is that yes, the biggest complaint about the game being too easy is from teams, but it is also being voiced from players soloing TFs/SFs.

 

This is reminding me of the time back on live where dedicated teams complained monsters were too easy so the devs put another zero at the end of the monster base regen value and the regular folk couldn't beat them anymore so they reverted it.

 

Your suggestion isn't so intense but if it's aimed at the people who say things are too easy then do something to meet them closer to their ceiling instead of raising the floor on everyone.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, megaericzero said:

 

This is reminding me of the time back on live where dedicated teams complained monsters were too easy so the devs put another zero at the end of the monster base regen value and the regular folk couldn't beat them anymore so they reverted it.

 

Your suggestion isn't so intense but if it's aimed at the people who say things are too easy then do something to meet them closer to their ceiling instead of raising the floor on everyone.

I don't think it will cause enough of a change that anyone will really notice. Easy way to find out is to run it through beta and see how it goes. If it is too much, it is a relatively simple reversal. Any changes to challenge teams are going to need a lot more than just this though.

[Pleonast]

My Willpower Tanker had four pillars of survival:

Defense (na, na, you can’t touch me), 

Resistance (ha, ha, you didn’t hurt me), 

Regeneration (meh, I’ll walk it off), 

Persistence (heh, you’re not even trying). 
 

Long solo fights always devolve to a bunch of minions punching me because they blew their endurance early and don’t recover fast enough to do any more. I’ve heard it called the Homer Simpson tactic; let them clobber you until they’re too tired to clobber anymore. 

 

My point—don't mess with the baseline; players have built their characters around it. Instead, give players more and specific options to make their personal difficulty harder.
 

Like a choice of buffs for every mob in a mission. Or a random buff for each mob.  As a potential reward, each mob drops an inspiration matching their buff. 

[golstat2003]

On 1/29/2024 at 5:26 PM, Rudra said:

I don't think it will cause enough of a change that anyone will really notice. Easy way to find out is to run it through beta and see how it goes. If it is too much, it is a relatively simple reversal. Any changes to challenge teams are going to need a lot more than just this though.

 

Honestly I don’t care about challenging teams. Teams are fine as is. If any 8 players that are optimized can’t steam roll most regular mission content then the IO system is pointless.

 

Add hard modes for more TFs and call it a day.