Allow Mastermind ATO's to slot in personal attacks.

[TheMoncrief]

One issue that many Masterminds will face is that keeping their henchmen alive requires finding some place to slot the many global IO's that grand defense or resistance to them. Some Mastermind sets have only 3 powers that accept these (Pet Damage and Recharge Intensive Pet) IO's, and those are the henchman powers themselves. This leaves the Mastermind in a bad situation - either give up set bonuses and effective enhancement of your henchmen, or give up the global benefits of the IO's that allow  your henchmen to survive in order to be effective. Compounding the issue is that some, but not all Mastermind primaries have a fourth power that takes these sets. This allows these sets to face drastically less slotting pressure for these critical global IO's.

 

My suggestion is simple - allow the Mastermind ATO's to be slotted in a Mastermind's primary personal attack. That would take two of the global IO's out of competition for the precious slots in the henchman powers and allow some freedom to arrange the remaining global IO's without completely crippling the effectiveness of any of the henchmen. It would also allow Masterminds to actually make use of the Recharge Reduction on the Command of the Mastermind set, which has quite a bit of it - the pets completely ignore this enhancement value, making the ATO significantly less desirable.

 

Ultimately, this would narrow the gap between the Mastermind sets that have a fourth power that can slot the global IO's and the sets that do not. And also encourage players to actually take and slot up their personal attacks, which are often completely ignored as overpriced and ineffective.

[Rudra]

Slotting pet set enhancements does not fit into non-pet powers. And though I am not a dev, I'm fairly certain they will not agree to enable power inappropriate sets to be slotted. One possible reason why they wouldn't agree? Because it would establish a precedent of being allowed to slot enhancements into powers where they don't fit.

[TheMoncrief]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

Slotting pet set enhancements does not fit into non-pet powers. And though I am not a dev, I'm fairly certain they will not agree to enable power inappropriate sets to be slotted. One possible reason why they wouldn't agree? Because it would establish a precedent of being allowed to slot enhancements into powers where they don't fit.

 

And I didn't ask to slot pet sets - Pet Damage or Recharge Intensive Pet - into Mastermind primary personal attacks. I asked for Mastermind ATO's. ATO's are slottable, generally, in whatever kind of powers are convenient for the Archetype in question. Notably, Defender ATO's don't slot in their Buff/Debuff sets (mostly), they slot in their attacks. Restricting the Mastermind ATO's to their pet powers is incredibly restrictive, especially for primaries that don't have a fourth pet power.

 

Are Mastermind primary attacks thematic to Masterminds? Well, every single Mastermind set has three such attacks. Many Mastermind primaries only have three pet powers. The number of personal attacks in a Mastermind primary is actually more consistent than the number of pets. And Mastermind ATO's have exactly zero enhancement aspects that do not fit personal attack powers. That is actually fewer than the aspects that do not work for pet powers, since as I mentioned, pets completely ignore recharge reduction from any source, including slotted enhancements.

[Uun]

I'm not sure if there are others, but MM/Storm/Tornado accepts MM ATOs, as well as Pet Damage and Recharge Intensive Pet sets. (MM/Traps/Seeker Drones accepts Pet Damage sets but not Recharge Intensive Pet or MM ATOs.)

[Frozen Burn]

I completely understand this request.  I had a hard time building my MM too with the limited # of powers the ATOs are allowed.  Most other ATs, their ATOs can be slotted in 7-9 powers of their attack set  or control set (for Trollers and Doms).  This provides a variety of building options for all other ATs.

 

But in general, the MM only has 3 pet powers to slot their ATOs.  Thugs, Demons, and Necro get a bonus 4th power to slot ATOs in (Gang War, Hell on Earth, and Soul Extraction).  That is 3-4 possible powers for slotting options vs. 7-9 for all other ATs - that's unfair.  There is no reason the ATOs shouldn't also be available to slot in other MM's primary attacks.   

 

Now, like Uun stated, there may be another secondary powerset that you can slot them into (like Storm/Tornado), but this seems to be a one-off as I don't see any other MM secondary powersets that has a power that allows them - not even Dark Miasma and Dark Servant.  So, this seems to be a bug/exploit for Tornado and I think this should NOT be allowed - no other AT can slot their ATOs in primary AND secondary - only the primary OR secondary (in the case of Defenders).  

 

But if the MM ATOs can be opened up to their primary attacks as well, this would give them 6-7 powers for slotting and having a bit of freedom in their builds like other ATs.  (And eliminating them from Tornado becomes moot.)  I see this as a completely reasonable request.

 

[Rudra]

The consideration is that the ATOs include pet enhancements. So while they are ArcheType Origin enhancements, they are also pet set enhancements. Hence the limitation.

[kelika2]

MM builds are tight and this would help a lot.  but the second ato set would also need some recharge in the enhancements.

 

other examples are Burn, shield charge and various other pets like gun drone, volt sentinel and dark extraction

[Lancek]

Being able to slot them in the upgrade powers would be nice.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Lancek said:

Being able to slot them in the upgrade powers would be nice.

That would at least make more sense than trying to slot them into the MM's attacks.

[Frozen Burn]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

The consideration is that the ATOs include pet enhancements. So while they are ArcheType Origin enhancements, they are also pet set enhancements. Hence the limitation.

 

This is the problem - the set should not be labeled "pet enhancement" at all and should just be AT enhancements.  The ATO specials are global buffs for all your henches/pets no matter which Hench power you slot them in.  So, there is no difference if you slot that same IO in an attack.  They will still get the buff - it SHOULD be like any other AT slotting an ATO special in one of their attacks.  

 

1 hour ago, Lancek said:

Being able to slot them in the upgrade powers would be nice.

 

50 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That would at least make more sense than trying to slot them into the MM's attacks.

 

Putting them in an upgrade power makes no sense.  You would have to open the whole ATO set for the power and the you'll have people 6 slotting an upgrade power witht he entire Acc/Dam set that really only need a single Endredux or Rech in it.  

 

Slotting MM attacks with ATOs makes perfect sense (and the only sense) as the set also buffs Acc/Dam/Rech/Endredux.  

 

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

This is the problem - the set should not be labeled "pet enhancement" at all and should just be AT enhancements.  The ATO specials are global buffs for all your henches/pets no matter which Hench power you slot them in.  So, there is no difference if you slot that same IO in an attack.  They will still get the buff - it SHOULD be like any other AT slotting an ATO special in one of their attacks.  

That is precisely why they are a pet enhancement set. Because they have procs that are only useful for the MM's pets. I acknowledge that there are some sets in which the proc does not fit in with the power it is designed to be slotted in, but those other procs are generic global buffs like +6% Accuracy. Those procs can be slotted into pretty much any power and work. As opposed to Pet +AoE Defense or Pet +Resist +Regen.

 

34 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Putting them in an upgrade power makes no sense.  You would have to open the whole ATO set for the power and the you'll have people 6 slotting an upgrade power witht he entire Acc/Dam set that really only need a single Endredux or Rech in it.  

I didn't say it makes sense, I said it makes more sense. Because the upgrade powers are still pet powers. The problem with the upgrade powers is that aside from the procs, the rest of the sets are useless slotted there.

 

35 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Slotting MM attacks with ATOs makes perfect sense (and the only sense) as the set also buffs Acc/Dam/Rech/Endredux.  

See first part of this post.

[TheMoncrief]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

The consideration is that the ATOs include pet enhancements. So while they are ArcheType Origin enhancements, they are also pet set enhancements. Hence the limitation.

 

No they're not. They are Mastermind ATO's. Period. Any other restriction beyond what is expected from an ATO set is arbitrary. Just about the only consistent thing about ATO's is that they must slot into powers specific to that archetype rather than pool powers. Tankers and Defender mostly have to slot their ATO's in their secondaries, for example, because it would be challenging to design ATO's to fit usefully into their highly variable primary power sets.

 

The argument that having globals that benefit pets means they shouldn't be slottable in personal attacks is silly. They benefit pets because they are Mastermind ATO's, and the Mastermind archetype was designed to focus heavily on pets. That does not mean that their ATO's should be restricted to pets. Have you seriously considered the number of globals out there that can be slotted into powers that do not benefit from the global effects at all and are not even relevant to it? Luck of the Gambler in Tough Hide? Miracle in Health? Power Transfer in Stamina? Kismet in almost any power that will take Kismet? Globals are not always relevant to the powers they slot into. That's why they're globals.

 

As long as their restriction still requires that they slot into Mastermind powers (which my suggestion guarantees) there is nothing inappropriate about allowing Mastermind ATO's to slot into a slightly broader selection of powers.

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, TheMoncrief said:

 

No they're not. They are Mastermind ATO's. Period. Any other restriction beyond what is expected from an ATO set is arbitrary. Just about the only consistent thing about ATO's is that they must slot into powers specific to that archetype rather than pool powers. Tankers and Defender mostly have to slot their ATO's in their secondaries, for example, because it would be challenging to design ATO's to fit usefully into their highly variable primary power sets.

 

The argument that having globals that benefit pets means they shouldn't be slottable in personal attacks is silly. They benefit pets because they are Mastermind ATO's, and the Mastermind archetype was designed to focus heavily on pets. That does not mean that their ATO's should be restricted to pets. Have you seriously considered the number of globals out there that can be slotted into powers that do not benefit from the global effects at all and are not even relevant to it? Luck of the Gambler in Tough Hide? Miracle in Health? Power Transfer in Stamina? Kismet in almost any power that will take Kismet? Globals are not always relevant to the powers they slot into. That's why they're globals.

 

As long as their restriction still requires that they slot into Mastermind powers (which my suggestion guarantees) there is nothing inappropriate about allowing Mastermind ATO's to slot into a slightly broader selection of powers.

I'll just leave it at I disagree.

[Sunsette]

I mean... Blaster ATOs go in any sort of attack. Melee/Ranged, ST/AOE. This is also true for melee ATs when their powersets have a ranged attack. So i don't think ATOs are constrained to have to work in a single type of non-archetype set. There's precedent here. 

[Frozen Burn]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

That is precisely why they are a pet enhancement set. Because they have procs that are only useful for the MM's pets. I acknowledge that there are some sets in which the proc does not fit in with the power it is designed to be slotted in, but those other procs are generic global buffs like +6% Accuracy. Those procs can be slotted into pretty much any power and work. As opposed to Pet +AoE Defense or Pet +Resist +Regen.

 

MM Henches are not just "pets" - they are the MM's primary attack and defense, and their entire/sole reason for being.  So, naturally, the ATO procs benefit the Henches and thusly, they benefit the MM.  The MM is unique in this way to all other ATs.  And MMs should have the same opportunity as all other ATs to slot their ATOs in more than just 3-4 powers whereas all other ATs have the freedom to slot theirs in 7-8 powers.  

[TheMoncrief]

Just now, Frozen Burn said:

 

MM Henches are not just "pets" - they are the MM's primary attack and defense, and their entire/sole reason for being.  So, naturally, the ATO procs benefit the Henches and thusly, they benefit the MM.  The MM is unique in this way to all other ATs.  And MMs should have the same opportunity as all other ATs to slot their ATOs in more than just 3-4 powers whereas all other ATs have the freedom to slot theirs in 7-8 powers.  

 

To be fair, some control sets have very few actual control powers. I think Illusion Control only has 4. That's still more than some Mastermind primaries have powers to slot their ATO's, and the same number as the best case Mastermind primaries. But 7-8 is not a universal rule for control sets.

[Frozen Burn]

2 minutes ago, TheMoncrief said:

 

To be fair, some control sets have very few actual control powers. I think Illusion Control only has 4. That's still more than some Mastermind primaries have powers to slot their ATO's, and the same number as the best case Mastermind primaries. But 7-8 is not a universal rule for control sets.

 

True.  Some controllers and Doms have fewer than 7, but certainly generally fair better than the 3-4 that MMs have.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

MM Henches are not just "pets" - they are the MM's primary attack and defense, and their entire/sole reason for being.

MM henchmen are still pets. They are pets of a henchman tier rather than a Controller's pet tier pets, the MM gets more of them with all of them being lieutenants, the MM can summon replacements way faster than any Controller or Dominator could ever dream, they can be commanded whereas other pets (excluding Lore) cannot be, and in Bodyguard Mode they shield the MM's HP bar, but they are still pets. Because MMs are the pet master AT. And that would be my guess as to why the ATOs for MMs were designed the way they were.

 

If you think MMs should be able to slot MM ATOs in more powers than the pet powers, that is your opinion. As I said, I disagree with that opinion. Because my opinion is otherwise. And you have not changed my mind on the matter. I was (and still am) content to leave it as we agree to disagree, but this argument you posted required a response. So are we good at leaving it as we agree to disagree?

 

Edit: If you want to understand where I am coming from, it's this: Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers are melee damage ATs, so they get melee damage sets exclusive to them that have procs based on the respective ATs. Because melee damage can be either single target or AoE, they can slot in either type power. Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders are ranged damage ATs, so they get ranged damage sets exclusive to them with procs based on the respective ATs. Since range damage can be single target or AoE, they can slot into either type power. Controllers and Dominators are control ATs, so they get control sets exclusive to them based on their respective ATs. Masterminds are the lone pet AT, and so have pet damage sets. Is it fair? I'm not saying it is. However, just like all the other ATs, they have ATOs that are based on what the AT revolves around.

Edited March 17 by Rudra

[Ridiculous Girl]

i was just running into this when i was looking at my robots/rad MM, that i only had three places to put my MM ATOs. which is severely affecting my full use of the ATOs. where i am seriouly considering placing one set for a 5 slot bonus and the other for a 3 slot bonus and ditching the rest.

 

what is strange is that one secondary like trick arrow, on a controller for example; i can put ATOs in a couple of powers there too, like entangling arrow and ice arrow. so it is easy to get the controller ATO set benefits for the immob and holds, etc, with 3 double and 2 triple bonus bundlings. (sorry, i am super tired if that does not make any sense... 😄 ) my bot/rad MM gets the shaft with 3 powers for slotting ATOs, while my ARS/TA troller gets 9 powers!

 

long story short, i fully support opening the attack powers to ATOs for an MM, it makes sense because of the severe limitations otherwise.

 

going back to bed. i'll read this in the morning and see if it makes any sense... 😬

[Wavicle]

They should definitely do this, and they should do it for Dominators and Controllers (to the extent they can).

[Sunsette]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

If you want to understand where I am coming from, it's this: Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers are melee damage ATs, so they get melee damage sets exclusive to them that have procs based on the respective ATs. Because melee damage can be either single target or AoE, they can slot in either type power. Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders are ranged damage ATs, so they get ranged damage sets exclusive to them with procs based on the respective ATs.

 

Just to be clear on this:

 

I just respecced out of having a ranged power slotted with a melee AT's ATOs and currently have melee powers slotted with a ranged AT's ATOs. The damage ATs are not limited in this way. Blasters can basically put their ATO in about 10+ powers and Scrappers/Stalkers/Brutes/Tankers can put their ATO in 7/9 primary powers even if their primary is hybrid melee/range.

 

If I can put Defiant Barrage and Blaster's Wrath in a teleport melee attack, and Stalker's Guile and Assassin's Mark in an area ranged attack... not sure what's so outlandish about letting MMs slot an enhancement in both their pet powers and their attack powers.

Edited March 17 by Sunsette

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

Just to be clear on this:

 

I just respecced out of having a ranged power slotted with a melee AT's ATOs and currently have melee powers slotted with a ranged AT's ATOs. The damage ATs are not limited in this way. Blasters can basically put their ATO in about 10+ powers and Scrappers/Stalkers/Brutes/Tankers can put their ATO in 7/9 primary powers even if their primary is hybrid melee/range.

 

If I can put Defiant Barrage and Blaster's Wrath in a teleport melee attack, and Stalker's Guile and Assassin's Mark in an area ranged attack... not sure what's so outlandish about letting MMs slot an enhancement in both their pet powers and their attack powers.

I sit corrected.