Cold Domination & Ice Blast: Should I switch to corruptor?

[Gone]

I made a Cold/Ice defender, sets I've never used before, but since I've read a few different places and in game some mentioned that these are strong Corruptor sets.  Usually I tend to want to play Defenders over corruptors due to the quicker access to the defendery powers and the higher values in those powers as well as leadership.

 

Apparently Corruptors do well with rain powers because of scourge and these sets have a bunch, and the debuff numbers are similar or the same to defenders, while only the defense powers (the shields and the aura toggle) really suffer here and the closer one gets to endgame the less useful the shields become.

 

So really the question is, are those benefits the corruptor has worth more in the long run or less?  I'm usually concerned with endgame quality as a goal since leveling up is so fast that it is only a small fraction of the time spent with a character. I don't intend to solo a lot, if that also makes a difference, I'm generally more team-oriented.

 

Any thoughts?  Should I reroll before I get in too deep?

[Hjarki]

I'd argue yes. You've manage to pick probably the two most Corruptor-friendly sets in the mix.

 

While people think of the shields as part of Cold Domination, they actually aren't the important part. Indeed, it's relatively common to use those shields purely as LotG mules and not bother to improve them much (if at all) because they're generally somewhat superfluous as you level up. Rather, the important parts are the last three powers - the debuffs. However, the key components of both Benumb (-regen) and Sleet Storm (-resist) are the same whether you're a Corruptor or Defender. Given that, you might as well be a Corruptor.

 

Ice Blast's secondary effects aren't generally very important. It's holds are - and these are the same between Corruptor and Defender. Unrelated to this, Ice's AE damage is based on Rain effects - and Rain effects are peculiarly strong with Scourge. Let's say you walk into a crowd and cast Inferno. It has no chance to Scourge because it's hitting full health targets. Now you use Blizzard on the mob. The initial ticks don't Scourge. But the ticks at the end do. As a result, Blizzard gets about 30% more damage than you'd expect. A similar (but smaller scale) issue arises with Ice Storm.

[Without_Pause]

I'd argue yes. You've manage to pick probably the two most Corruptor-friendly sets in the mix.

 

I would argue Fire/kin corr is an ever better pairing than the defender version.

[Hjarki]

I would argue Fire/kin corr is an ever better pairing than the defender version.

 

Fire/Kin isn't really a 'pairing' since there's no particular synergy between the sets. Fire Blast is simply a strong offensive set for anyone who can take it.

 

Kinetics is arguably better for Corruptors than Defenders due to the higher +damage cap. However, it's extremely hard for Corruptors to manage the kind of defenses that would enable them to reliably reach that damage cap via Fulcrum Shift. In general, Kinetics tends to be a much stronger set for Controllers/Masterminds than it is for Corruptors/Defenders because Kinetics is primarily a melee buff set - and Controllers/Masterminds bring their own melee to buff.

[Without_Pause]

I would argue Fire/kin corr is an ever better pairing than the defender version.

 

Fire/Kin isn't really a 'pairing' since there's no particular synergy between the sets. Fire Blast is simply a strong offensive set for anyone who can take it.

 

Kinetics is arguably better for Corruptors than Defenders due to the higher +damage cap. However, it's extremely hard for Corruptors to manage the kind of defenses that would enable them to reliably reach that damage cap via Fulcrum Shift. In general, Kinetics tends to be a much stronger set for Controllers/Masterminds than it is for Corruptors/Defenders because Kinetics is primarily a melee buff set - and Controllers/Masterminds bring their own melee to buff.

 

One can at least say the debuff numbers are better for a defender when talking Cold/sonic. Fire? Not so much, and considering Kins thing is damage, I have a harder time defending playing a Kin/fire over a Fire/kin corr. I can at least see why you go Cold/sonic. Fulcrum + Rain of Fire/Fire Breath + scourge. Nope, no synergy there.

[Hjarki]

One can at least say the debuff numbers are better for a defender when talking Cold/sonic.

 

Cold Domination's three core debuffs are the -regen on Benumb, the -resist on Sleet and the -resist on Heat Loss. Of these, only Heat Loss is better on a Defender. The other two are the same between the two archetypes.

 

That's why I described Cold Domination as a 'Corruptor set'. It's similar to Dark in this sense. You've got key debuffs in -regen and -resist that are the same either way, so it makes more sense to take it as a Corruptor.

 

In most cases, the debuffs on Blast sets aren't particularly important. The single target debuffs get resisted into meaninglessness against any target you care about and the best AE debuffs are generally attached to otherwise weak attacks/sets. Sonic is an exception, which is why Sonic Blast is such a common set for Defenders.

 

Fire? Not so much, and considering Kins thing is damage, I have a harder time defending playing a Kin/fire over a Fire/kin corr. I can at least see why you go Cold/sonic. Fulcrum + Rain of Fire/Fire Breath + scourge. Nope, no synergy there.

 

Synergy means that two effects create more than the sum of their parts, not merely the sum of their parts. Fire/Kin or Kin/Fire are merely the sum of their parts (at best, see below). Fire is just a generic Blast set with relation to Kinetics and Kinetics is just a generic buff set with relation to Fire - none of their effects interact in any unusual way to provide an exceptional benefit.

 

Contrast that with what I think OP should really be looking at: Water/Cold Corruptor.

 

Cold has no self-heal. Water does.

Cold has minimal control effects. Water is loaded with them.

Cold has area debuffs. Water has delayed damage rain-style effects that allow you to place them safely.

Cold has long recharge debuffs. Water has knockback attacks that allow slotting FF IOs.

Cold is a set that requires virtually no in-fight interaction. Water is a set that requires a great deal of it.

 

Those are synergies. You're getting extra value by combining abilities across sets rather than those sets merely providing their normal benefit.

 

In my mind, Fire/Kin Corruptor is a dissonant mix. The entire reason - the only reason - to take Fire Blast is to deal damage. But while Kinetics boosts your damage substantially, it does so at the expense of hindering your rotation. A */Kinetics build generally spends 40%+ of its time working with Kinetics. While that doesn't translate directly into a 40% loss of damage (because the attacks you skip are your weak attacks rather than your strong ones), it does mean that you're removing the very reason you took Fire Blast in the first place: to deal direct damage.

 

Kinetics also doesn't provide the one buff Fire Blast absolutely needs right now: +hit. That means you need to spend additional effort to make your Snipe part of your standard rotation.

 

Fire Blast also does nothing to cover Kinetic's defensive weakness. A Fire/Kin Corruptor is forced into melee, but has no way to stay alive there. So you need to waste an enormous amount of your I/O slotting to make it work.

 

It's easy to say "oh, look - best Blast set combined with best damage buffing! That's synergy!". But it's not. Fire/Kin (or Kin/Fire) is actually a weaker combination together than it would be brought by two different characters who had more appropriate pairings.

 

That's part of the reason I claim Kinetics is a "Controller set". Not only do Controllers have the tools to enter melee range safely for Fulcrum Shift, but they don't actually need to do so because the bulk of their damage generally comes from pets anyway. Controller sets are also not particularly busy - they don't need all that much time for their primary so the busy-ness of Kinetics doesn't detract from what they're doing.

[Ironscarlet]

Do people really think cold domination makes a better coruptor?

 

Cold domination as a defender primary gets better stats. Benumb the strongest debuff in game is enhanced by this. What I mean is the -damage goes from I believe -37% to -62% basically  cutting opponents damage to nothing.  Out of most combos is cold domination really better as a coruptor? I have only played a mm cold domination loved it better than the pets so I wonder what people's opinion are on the top combos for cold domination.

[Hjarki]

Do people really think cold domination makes a better coruptor?

 

Cold domination as a defender primary gets better stats. Benumb the strongest debuff in game is enhanced by this. What I mean is the -damage goes from I believe -37% to -62% basically  cutting opponents damage to nothing.  Out of most combos is cold domination really better as a coruptor? I have only played a mm cold domination loved it better than the pets so I wonder what people's opinion are on the top combos for cold domination.

 

Ultimately, Cold's buffs tend to be unnecessary - it's the same problem Force Field has at higher levels.

 

That leaves the debuffs.

 

Infrigidate isn't particularly important and it's a power anyone who can skip usually does.

Benumb is a -regen debuff. Yes, it does other stuff, but the main purpose is -regen. The -regen is the same no matter what AT you're playing.

Sleet is -resist debuff. Again, it's the same -resist for every AT.

Heat Loss is a -resist debuff and endurance buff. The endurance buff is so ridiculously over-the-top that it ends up being full endurance no matter what AT you take. The -resist debuff is slightly better for Defenders than other AT.

 

In terms of the key elements of the set, Defenders debuff -resist on an AV/GM by 60% instead of 54% for Corruptors/Controllers/Masterminds. Everything else is either the same or not particularly important at high levels.

 

[Ukase]

Well now I'm a bit ...disappointed. I just got my second defender I've ever made up to level 29; Atlas Medallion already, and have already done the explorations and plaques and defeats for FPR, aside from the fakes. And now I read that I should have made a corruptor instead?

Well...I made this toon to learn more, and I guess that objective has been met. Guess it's easy enough to respec the goodies out of the character and PL a corruptor..but I'm going to hate having to redo synapse. 

[oedipus_tex]

You really can't look at Defender vs Corruptor (or Controller, MM etc) just in terms of how the modifiers affect individual powersets. You have to look at the character overall.

 

Defenders get better modifiers on almost everything except Damage. That means Defense buffs on Combat Jumping, Manuevers, Weave, etc, Resistance buffs from Tough and epic armor, and mezz durations from whatever epic pool you pick (maybe not that big a deal to some people). Soft capped with capped resist is much easier to accomplish for a Defender--leaving many more slots for procs--than any of the squishy ATs. That's where their strength lies.

 

 

[Ankhammon]

50 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

You really can't look at Defender vs Corruptor (or Controller, MM etc) just in terms of how the modifiers affect individual powersets. You have to look at the character overall.

 

Defenders get better modifiers on almost everything except Damage. That means Defense buffs on Combat Jumping, Manuevers, Weave, etc, Resistance buffs from Tough and epic armor, and mezz durations from whatever epic pool you pick (maybe not that big a deal to some people). Soft capped with capped resist is much easier to accomplish for a Defender--leaving many more slots for procs--than any of the squishy ATs. That's where their strength lies.

 

 

It boils down to this, if the other modifiers allow you a better time while playing it's cuz Defenders are awesome and you should play that way.

If, on the other hand, it does not then it's a challenge to do and you should take the Defender. 

 

Heads it's Defender

Tails it's not Corrupter. 

 

 

🙂

[Troo]

On 6/23/2019 at 4:06 PM, Gone said:

I made a Cold/Ice defender, sets I've never used before, but since I've read a few different places and in game some mentioned that these are strong Corruptor sets.  Usually I tend to want to play Defenders over corruptors due to the quicker access to the defendery powers and the higher values in those powers as well as leadership.

 

Apparently Corruptors do well with rain powers because of scourge and these sets have a bunch, and the debuff numbers are similar or the same to defenders, while only the defense powers (the shields and the aura toggle) really suffer here and the closer one gets to endgame the less useful the shields become.

 

So really the question is, are those benefits the corruptor has worth more in the long run or less?  I'm usually concerned with endgame quality as a goal since leveling up is so fast that it is only a small fraction of the time spent with a character. I don't intend to solo a lot, if that also makes a difference, I'm generally more team-oriented.

 

Any thoughts?  Should I reroll before I get in too deep?

Curruptors are definitely not Defenders.

 

That said, damage can be the more difficult thing to find later in the game.

[oedipus_tex]

Damage definitely can be a hard role to fill, and Ice Blast lends itself very strongly to Corruptors due to the rain mechanics. Rain also happen to not take procs well these days, so that's a factor.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I rolled a Cold/Ice defender that fit my concept, and it's doing just great.  I think that you'll find that it's REALLY hard to make a bad decision in CoX.  So what if you eke out a few extra bips of damage on one build versus another?  I've literally got dozens (ok, maybe a dozen) of builds that make no sense.  War Axe/SD as a brute (scrapper is apparently optimal)!  A Mind/Poison controller!  It's madness!  And they all work.

 

Except my broadsword/inv scrapper.  Broadsword is just too sucky!