For Fun - Tanker Challenge Dark/Stone

[Renatos1023]

13 hours ago, Warboss said:

Sorry a bit slow on my thread reads these days, but to answer your KB question, yes. Dark has no inherent KB protection. Also the last issue added KB/stacking KB powers to many of the mobs that previously didn't have them, Council being the most obvious change (personally not a fan, don't see the point or the theme of it). 8 KB used to get you by on the majority of the content (I used to build for 12 on my Fire and Dark Tanks (I really don't like KB)). Now though, I think 12 might be the starting point, especially with the current frequency or stacking changes/opportunities. Blessing of the Zephier, 3 Fury of the Gladiator, and Karma's KB protection are the easiest to slot, Steadfast Protection's KB is good, but takes a Resist slot. 

See this is new news to me. I always thought that 8 points of KB was what you aimed for on Dark and Fire (and what I have done forever), but apparently the Devs hate these sets and want us to go +12, or be the new beach ball?? Honestly, just give both sets 50% of the KB protection that the other sets get, and that would be an improvement. It is ridiculous at this point...Dark/ is a blast, but it is an endurance whore. I run 11 toggles. There is almost no way a Dark/ could be functional without Ageless. Now that I do have the T3 Ageless and a nice bunch of IOs, I feel invincible. Prior to that, lmao, I was popping blue pills like they were coke. But, come on...give me some friggen KB protection. 

 

There is no reason that Dark and Fire should get tossed around rooms. They are already at the bottom of the pack (IMO) for defensive sets without substantial IO investment. There are many sets that are better with base IOs and minimal IO sets. I am thoroughly enjoying my Dark/ ride, please don't get me wrong, but I can see why others don't play it. I do have to say though, Dark/ doesn't need its last 3 powers. Which is nice for diving into ancillary sets, but thats about it.

Edited May 1 by Renatos1023

[graeberguinn]

So I was bathroom bored looking through forums and saw this post. Figured I'd share a Vid I saw a long time ago even though it's a brute and not a Tank. Looks like a fun combo. 

Happy Hunting

 

 

[ZemX]

9 hours ago, Renatos1023 said:

apparently the Devs hate these sets and want us to go +12, or be the new beach ball??

 

12 doesn't buy you anything vs. the new critical KB feature the Council have.  You would need 16.  I don't even bother with that on my Rad Tankers that have 10 built-in.   And I'm not getting tossed around that much even despite having little to no defense.   Critical KB is only a 5% chance on certain powers.  It'll happen if you're tanking a whole spawn, but it's not going to be "beach ball" action by any stretch of the imagination.  At least that has not been my experience with it on Rad.

[SeraphimKensai]

My dark/stone is 50, and I have 8 pts of KB prot slotted, and my character uses SJ, but I hardly notice getting bounced around. My build also has 45% melee defense in combat so that won't dodge a rocket that scores a natural 20 to knock my ass all over though, but I haven't seen it in play.

 

Oppressive Gloom is your friend here, stun the hell out of anything that would knock you back and then kill it first.

 

Maybe it's because I don't fight the council that often, only for TFs, as I typically don't do radios/newspapers unless I'm extremely bored. There's a lot more interesting and tougher NPC groups out there that occupy my time. 

 

Same thing with Fiery Aura, I don't have much issue with KB running that either.

 

 

[Warboss]

Got my guy up to 24. Here's his current build.

 

[Spaghetti Betty]

Currently at level 32! Here is where my build is sitting

 

 

Corner herding has been making Fault put in a ton of work! The one thing I can't wait for is to not have to use Project Will as a filler.

[Warboss]

I think I have CJ and SL for travel (need to swap into T-port at some point). I think I may have started with the Fighting Pool as well. Likely have Kick with the +Recharge chance and Maybe Tough already (don't recall). I have been noticing that OG is affecting more than just the minions (could be because I'm duoing and they're stacking. Or possibly that Stone Fists is stacking). Anyways, Target build options, add the other "mallet", use Fault with many recharge. Debating trying to Take Tactics for the +To Hit, would help with several powers, but will be an added load to End Management. So, maybe PSi Mastery will be a good Epic level choice. I also ended up with a Disorient proc, but it only fires twice per min. Anyone try this out? Is it worth dropping into either OG or SF? 

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 hour ago, Warboss said:

. I also ended up with a Disorient proc, but it only fires twice per min. Anyone try this out? Is it worth dropping into either OG or SF? 

What if I said replacing it with a damage proc would offer about the same amount of mitigation?

 

I have been kablamming mobs at +1x8 with the build above. It's being propped up by recovery serums, but things get dead pretty quickly. Fault will stun everything short of bosses, and they flop around from the KD anyway.

[tidge]

On 4/30/2024 at 11:17 PM, Renatos1023 said:

But, come on...give me some friggen KB protection. 

 

There is no reason that Dark and Fire should get tossed around rooms. They are already at the bottom of the pack (IMO) for defensive sets without substantial IO investment. There are many sets that are better with base IOs and minimal IO sets.

 

What I've been doing for slots on my Dark Armor characters to hit 14 points of KB

• 3 slots of Gladiator's Armor to get +3 KB protection (I pick Dark Embrace, this is also a healthy amount of Resistance)
• 3 slots of Fury of the Gladiator to get +3 KB protection (in Death Shroud)
• 1 Steadfast Protection +4 KB protection
• 1 Blessing of the Zephyr +4 KB protection or 1 Karma +4 KB protection (use both if the Fury of the Gladiator bonus is not used)

I'll craft a SG base +10 KB if I think I'll be encountering FREEM! IIRC the FREEM is 20 points.

 

I tried +8 and +11 points for a good deal of content; neither was enough. 12 was not a practical value to test (recently), yet I feel like past testing had me trying for at least 13 points.

[Warboss]

Well, I've already stated how I feel about the whole "FREEM" thing... strikes me as just another poke at things you can't resist... Which for a Tank is just silly. I also don't care for the fact that there's little way to compensate around it. I'd still like to know if it affects Stone and Invuln.

Edited May 8 by Warboss
because

[DarkRevelation]

1 hour ago, Warboss said:

Well, I've already stated how I feel about the whole "FREEM" thing... strikes me as just another poke at things you can't resist... Which for a Tank is just silly. I also do care for the fact that there's little way to compensate around it. I'd still like to know if it affects Stone and Invuln.

 

I went and tested on my Stone(Granite)/RAd and my Invuln/SS tank (both at 50) with a 4x8 Council Radio mission

 

Never saw FRREM! on my Granite, but saw this on my Invuln, but wasn't knocked down.

 

[20:32] Dark Warwolf knocks you off your feet with their Black Dwarf Smite (FREEM!)!

 

Something is obviously different. I never saw it at all in a full mission on Granite, which was odd. It is too small of a sample size to draw any conclusions from though. I need to test on a Rad/Dark/Fire to get more information, as well as run more on the Granite to see. 

[DarkRevelation]

Not long after I posted that above I got knocked down on my Invuln, but I don't know how 'right' that was. I was running up an incline, and KB/KD does some weird things on inclines. I farm on the Shivan map and can send 54 bosses flying on an incline with Energy Torrent, where I can't on flat ground. I went back and did more Council groups on the Invuln, and didn't get knocked down again. 

 

I tested with my Rad/Fire, and saw what @Warboss saw. I was knocked around a bit. I saw a few stacks of KB on me at multiple times, including a 12.0 grenade launcher. I know once I got hit with two of those at the same time, as well as a few 3.0 stacks on top of that when I jumped into the middle of a Council warehouse. I flew around on that one, no doubt. 

 

The biggest thing is that I was hit way, way, way more often on the Rad/* build because it is a resist set, versus a granite build that is over the lvl 50 soft cap, but under the lvl 54 boss/incarnate soft cap, which I believe is between 57 and 60%, and an Invuln build that scales up with mobs to close to the incarnate cap. That is troubling to me, as now resist sets are inherently behind a defense set for KB, even with 'protection', where fire/dark has been hosed from the beginning. At least Rad gets 10 KB protection with its primary set. Ten is obviously no longer enough, and not close. 

 

In any game I have ever played I have never met anyone who enjoyed losing control of their character. If you really want to piss people off take away mitigation to control loss events. Fear in WoW was one of the uglier ones until they put in mitigation.  When you put a lot of time and effort to building a "super tank" only to have it mezzed by the mapserver event with a 1000 mag stun, it isn't fun. There is no way to mitigate that in the game, which makes it frustrating. It was a one time event, I get it, but still the total loss of control isn't fun on a character that is supposed to soak up the hits for others. In another event, I tried to do the 20th Anniversary time capsule event in Atlas on a lvl 6 character and got ping ponged by DE mobs with KB. How is a lvl 6 supposed to deal with that? I ended up running away and said fuck this on a lvl 6. It isn't worth it. If you don't have the tools to deal with a problem there isn't much you can do. 

 

I know I got hit tonight with two mag 12 KBs from some Council grenade launchers, and four mag 3 KBs from something I couldn't read fast enough, and all at the same time; mag 36 KB in total. Outside of the primary pool choices for tanks, some of which do not offer any protection at all, there are three IOs that each give mag 4 protection, one three piece set bonus for mag 3 protection on the AoE PvP set, and Acrobatics which is three choices deep in the Leaping power pool offers mag 7 protection. The choices are very limited to mitigate some of the KB. How do you mitigate mag 36 KB with those? 

 

I don't want to be negative, but bumping up the KB on the Council, without a means of compensation via improved primary power choices to deal with extreme KB (where it should be IMO), enhanced mag protection IO enhancements, or mitigation through multiple power pool choices, not just one that is three deep, is going to make resist sets have to work that much harder to keep up with defense sets. I don't understand the reaction to mobs getting rolled by boosting KB to that degree. I don't know if they thought it through or not, but this affects part of the tanker AT more than the others, and it is further out of balance now than before. I don't know how to deal with 36 mag KB with the tools we now have. Skip the Council missions I guess, until they don't like some other set getting rolled and incorporate extreme KB into them as well. It is frustrating. 

[PLVRIZR]

On 5/1/2024 at 8:08 AM, ZemX said:

I don't even bother with that on my Rad Tankers that have 10 built-in.   And I'm not getting tossed around that much even despite having little to no defense.  

Don't know if one extra point is significant but (as you'll see in the TTT thread from last night) my Fire/Fire, with 9 pts. got knocked down at least a dozen times in a one hour-fifteen minute Citadel TF (at +2/8).

[Renatos1023]

20 hours ago, tidge said:

What I've been doing for slots on my Dark Armor characters to hit 14 points of KB

• 3 slots of Gladiator's Armor to get +3 KB protection (I pick Dark Embrace, this is also a healthy amount of Resistance)
• 3 slots of Fury of the Gladiator to get +3 KB protection (in Death Shroud)
• 1 Steadfast Protection +4 KB protection
• 1 Blessing of the Zephyr +4 KB protection or 1 Karma +4 KB protection (use both if the Fury of the Gladiator bonus is not used)

I'll craft a SG base +10 KB if I think I'll be encountering FREEM! IIRC the FREEM is 20 points.

 

I tried +8 and +11 points for a good deal of content; neither was enough. 12 was not a practical value to test (recently), yet I feel like past testing had me trying for at least 13 points.

 

I finally finished IO'ing out my Dark/Spines Tank, and I ended up with 11 points of KB protection (Steadfast +4, BotZ +4, Glad. Armor +3). It seems the bump from 8 to 11 really helped, as I have noticed a significant decrease in getting knocked around. Now this is just my perception while playing, and others' mileage may vary, but I'm currently happy with how he is performing. Granted I also have relatively high defenses, so that is also going to be a mitigating factor in avoiding the KB altogether.

[DarkRevelation]

I am testing this today with my Invuln against Council. I got hit with 'Black Dwarf Smite' for mag 20 KB from a 'Dark Warwolf', and wasn't knocked off of my feet. I have mag 10 KB protection from Unyielding. 

 

I don't know what is going on or why. I don't have a high enough Shield/SR/Ice to test those on Council. 

 

edit #2 - I was eventually knocked back by a Council rocket launcher, mag 14 KB.

I have also seen mag 50 Immobilize, which is nuts. 

 

edit #3 - I was NOT knocked down on the FREEM! hits. 

 

The results are inconsistent. 

 

edit #1- Warwolf, not Werewolf

edit #2 - updated results

edit# 3 - updated results

Edited May 8 by DarkRevelation

[DarkRevelation]

I tested again last night with Granite vs Council lvl 54 4x8 PI radio missions. I was not knocked back, nor did I see a FREEM! at any time. Granite has its own mag 10 KB protection, so combined with Rooted's KB mag 10 gives you mag 20 protection from KB. 

 

If they start knocking back Granite, well, I would't know what to say. You incur such a penalty with it as is that most no longer see it as a viable option. I guess we will see over time. 

[ZemX]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:18 PM, DarkRevelation said:

The results are inconsistent. 

 

These effects all say they stack so it might just be you have a few stacks of lower mag KBs that just got applied and then the FREEM comes along and exceeds your protection combined with the others.

[DarkRevelation]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

These effects all say they stack so it might just be you have a few stacks of lower mag KBs that just got applied and then the FREEM comes along and exceeds your protection combined with the others.

 

I'm sure they stack. I had the combat attribute window open the whole I time I tested so I could watch what mag I was being hit with and by who/what/when. I could see the stacks of things affecting KB, and the oddity of when same thing would hit with a 3.x mag, or a 14 or 15 mag (the tests are all running together now so I don't remember which number), which I assume was a crit? The one time I got knocked down on Invuln was a straight up 14 or 15 mag hit, no stacks. I would have a higher mag than that stacked at times, but never leave my feet. I would love to see some other tanks this out and let everyone know what they see. 

[Maelwys]

IIRC because of the "10000% Knockup/Knockback Resistance" most of the Defensive sets get; the Mag and duration of incoming KB effects end up being cut drastically. So it really takes a single big hit to affect you (which has its remaining Mag over the threshold reduced to a tiny fraction - enough to knock you down but not back) because if/when multiple KB powers hit you then they need to do so simultaneously for it to spike over your protection.
Unfortunately the stats display screen is a little laggy and it doesn't update regularly enough to catch the difference between "simultaneous" hits and "almost simultaneous" hits... so sometimes you'll see lingering values from short-duration effects (like KB) which aren't actually stacking.

I'd guess that the Inv/ is getting KB less regularly due to its Defence; and if you softcapped the Rad/ then it'd behave identically?

Oddly enough Kheldian Dwarf forms have Mag 100 KB Protection and are functionally immune to FREEM...
 

Edited May 10 by Maelwys

[Maelwys]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:17 AM, DarkRevelation said:

I don't know how to deal with 36 mag KB with the tools we now have. Skip the Council missions I guess, until they don't like some other set getting rolled and incorporate extreme KB into them as well. It is frustrating. 

I'm definitely not a fan of the Freem, but as for tool suggestions...

In the olden days before IOs; a Dark Tanker used to either use Acrobatics or Hover; because the "I've been knocked back" animation whenever you're flying is much less problematic than when you're on the ground.
Aside from stacking KB via IOs... Clarion works too; as does a friendly Kinetic with Increase Density, etc. or just plain old Inspirations.

[ZemX]

6 hours ago, DarkRevelation said:

or a 14 or 15 mag (the tests are all running together now so I don't remember which number), which I assume was a crit?

 

Anything over about 1.6 or so on a single stack is the new crit (a.k.a. FREEM).  Those are on the order of 5% chance of +14 to +20 mag KB.  It varies by the power.  They are not all the same.  And it will vary a little more by purple patch levels above you if that's the case.

[Warboss]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Anything over about 1.6 or so on a single stack is the new crit (a.k.a. FREEM).  Those are on the order of 5% chance of +14 to +20 mag KB.  It varies by the power.  They are not all the same.  And it will vary a little more by purple patch levels above you if that's the case.

 

Okay, but why should we have to? Other than GMs and AVs no other group can really do this, and there are no way to compensate for the KB (other than running a Stone Tank... or maybe that's the goal). Sorry, but this one to me seems ridiculous. I have a lot of respect for the folks that saved this game, but this is a swing and miss to me.

Edited May 11 by Warboss

[DarkRevelation]

On 5/10/2024 at 11:44 AM, Maelwys said:

Unfortunately the stats display screen is a little laggy and it doesn't update regularly enough to catch the difference between "simultaneous" hits and "almost simultaneous" hits... so sometimes you'll see lingering values from short-duration effects (like KB) which aren't actually stacking.
 

Yes, the screen does lag somewhat, which is frustrating. Unfortunately it is the most viable option. I wanted to parse the logs but when I looked at them anything that would have knocked anyone with zero protection down was listed as something like 'so and so uses whatever and knocks you off of your feet', when there is no KD/KB/KU for the character. The logs are not very useful for this, and we don't have access to the game engine. If anyone has a logging idea I am ready to try it. 

 

I was testing an Invuln build on the test server yesterday and ran Council/CoT/Arachnos PI radio missions. I saw a few FREEMs but was never knocked down. 

 

On 5/10/2024 at 11:44 AM, Maelwys said:

I'd guess that the Inv/ is getting KB less regularly due to its Defence; and if you softcapped the Rad/ then it'd behave identically?
 

 

I tested that the other day as well on my Rad tank, and yes, it seemed to be such. I ate a bunch of purples and obviously didn't get hit anywhere near as much. That is the real issue here though IMO. Resist tankers are at a bigger disadvantage now because of this. 

 

On 5/10/2024 at 11:56 AM, Maelwys said:

Aside from stacking KB via IOs... Clarion works too; as does a friendly Kinetic with Increase Density, etc. or just plain old Inspirations.

 

The test server is really very handy to, well, test things. I ran Clarion yesterday as well on my Invuln to see, as I have never used it before. Frankly the KB portion of it sucks compared to the rest of the status protections (repel sucks as well).  I am going to run it on a Rad I have on the test server to see if it helps at all. I am also going to test with Acrobatics to see if it is viable. I typically get CJ/SJ anyway, so it is not a huge investment for someone who uses those anyway. 

 

On 5/10/2024 at 11:44 AM, Maelwys said:

Oddly enough Kheldian Dwarf forms have Mag 100 KB Protection and are functionally immune to FREEM...
 

I didn't know that. An Invuln can hit 100, but only with Unstoppable, which is not viable for normal usage. I do miss no-crash-perma-unstoppable/rage, but that is a long time ago now and was overpowered I guess. 

 

18 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Anything over about 1.6 or so on a single stack is the new crit (a.k.a. FREEM).  Those are on the order of 5% chance of +14 to +20 mag KB.  It varies by the power.  They are not all the same.  And it will vary a little more by purple patch levels above you if that's the case.

 

I don't see those very often on the Invuln, and never on the Granite, which lines up with what you posted. I do see them on the Rad quite a lot. 

 

The problem is that most resist based builds rely very heavily on timing. Timing of heals, timing of cool downs, timing of absorbs, etc. Getting knocked down constantly screws all of that up. I go out of my way to get 100% resist to slows so the timing isn't messed up. Its not as bad on the Rad/Fire I run as I have a mitigation I can use in a pinch, the Rebirth Radial Epiphany (the PBAOE Heal and +Regen), but I don't run that on my Fire/SS, so I may have to look into it. 

[ZemX]

On 5/10/2024 at 10:02 PM, Warboss said:

Okay, but why should we have to?

 

I didn't say you had to be cool with it.  I was just explaining how it appears to work based on what's in CoD.  

 

As usual, it's the resist tankers that get hosed most by this.  This is just one attack out of several that only SOME of the enemy units have.  It has only a 5% chance to FREEM.   Put that on top of soft-cap DDR-backed defense and I don't see  how any defense tank gets knocked down more than on the rare occasion an enemy rolls a pair of 20s.

[Warboss]

3 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

I didn't say you had to be cool with it.  I was just explaining how it appears to work based on what's in CoD.  

 

As usual, it's the resist tankers that get hosed most by this.  This is just one attack out of several that only SOME of the enemy units have.  It has only a 5% chance to FREEM.   Put that on top of soft-cap DDR-backed defense and I don't see  how any defense tank gets knocked down more than on the rare occasion an enemy rolls a pair of 20s.

 

Understood, I just don't see the reason for the change or the power/s being deployed the way they were. It seems like stealth nerf, or poorly research/tested (again, unless the intent was to punish Resistance  sets over Defensive sets). The change basically forces Stone and Invuln back to the top of the Armor tiers (arguably Defensive sets as well (haven't had time to test)), and that is my frustration with the change. Why shouldn't there be other sets that compete with top two "classic" sets?