An Identity for Brutes?

[Haijinx]

I would have chosen AOE melee damage, but they gave that to Tanks for some reason

[FupDup]

16 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I would have chosen AOE melee damage, but they gave that to Tanks for some reason

Hitting more targets and having wider AOEs does make sense in regards to helping Tanks grab/hold aggro from more enemies at once. 

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, FupDup said:

Hitting more targets and having wider AOEs does make sense in regards to helping Tanks grab/hold aggro from more enemies at once. 

They could have upped the AOE size of Tanker punch punchvoke, the AOE size of their taunt aura and the AOE radius of their Taunt power instead though.

[Duckbutler]

13 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Tankers get, hold, and survive aggro in order to protect the team. That's their identity. Scrappers are melee damage dealers. That's their identity. Stalkers are stealthy melee assassins. That's their identity.

 

Those are all specific roles that define their identities and, other than the fact that they're all melee characters, don't overlap. There's no confusion about who they are or what they do, and each of the AT's is the best there is at what they do. (Yes I know about IOs, yes I know about exceptions, etc, etc. Please don't try arguing the exception.)

 

So what is the specific role that defines a Brute's identity? And what specific thing can they do better than any other AT? If we can't answer those questions then what should their role be?

 

Don't we need to answer at least one of those questions before any discussion about numbers or changes or balance can happen?

 

I think the question of the brute identity is that they're the middle road. Not the best melee damage, not the best defenses, but well rounded. It doesn't make a strong statement even though it can provide a very good experience provided that both aspects of the character are actually sufficient for the content you're trying to do. I suspect that's part of their enduring popularity in game despite the forum complaints.

 

13 hours ago, Haijinx said:

They could have upped the AOE size of Tanker punch punchvoke, the AOE size of their taunt aura and the AOE radius of their Taunt power instead though.

 

This is an extremely sensible solution.

[CrusaderDroid]

12 minutes ago, Duckbutler said:

I think the question of the brute identity is that they're the middle road.

That's not an identity.

 

You might be able to make an argument that role compression is a useful thing to have, but a party size of 8 and some very broad coverage from other ATs (with Controllers able to cover both CC and supporting sets, just as one example), coupled with general redundancy (both Scrappers and Blasters make things defeated, just as one example), means that you don't really need to worry about carefully selecting your party and compressing roles to make room for other critical roles.

 

This also gets worse when you go through some of the arguments already posted in this thread: despite the increased resist cap, Brutes have Scrapper scalings on their armor set. That means that with their enhancements, they need to pick between staying power through full set bonuses, or damage with procced out powers that skip sets, which defeats the purpose of being between the two. "Middle of the road" means you crash into the divider between lanes.

 

Hence: an attempt to define Brutes without direct comparisons to either Scrapper or Tanker. We move Brute out of being "middle of the road", and we're a step closer to making the game as a whole better.

 

13 minutes ago, Duckbutler said:

I suspect that's part of their enduring popularity in game despite the forum complaints.

Not everyone makes it to the point where the differences between ATs is not only relevant but important. This would be the equivalent of balancing League of Legends strictly around Bronze/Silver play instead of pro play.

 

They're popular because if you aren't going to go super deep into the game, they deal huge chunks of damage no matter what your investment in enhancements is, what your team composition is, or if you even have a team. Nothing wrong with that, but the 1-50 leveling experience is not the whole game. When you take the whole game into account, Brute's limitations start becoming clearer since it's stuck in that middle road state in a game that doesn't need middle road ATs in teams.

 

I think Brutes are always going to be popular no matter what changes happen. It's a fun fantasy, and Fury is a fun idea. I think we can make a change to address its late-game stuff and give it a proper identity without losing what makes it so popular now.

[Lyone_Manes]

I've gotta ask...why not remove the Damage Aura from Tanks, make it a "Taunt Aura", improve the Damage Aura for Brutes as well as weaken their Taunt slightly and give it a secondary effect ability and let THEM be the AoE Melee Damage Dealers while the Tanks focus on being survivalists?...

[CrusaderDroid]

6 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

I've gotta ask...why not remove the Damage Aura from Tanks, make it a "Taunt Aura", improve the Damage Aura for Brutes as well as weaken their Taunt slightly and give it a secondary effect ability and let THEM be the AoE Melee Damage Dealers while the Tanks focus on being survivalists?...

Because Scrappers do AoE damage too, except they can crit.

 

AoE isn't as useful anyways since just about everyone gets it and any combination of AoE quickly cleans out everything it should be hitting. Once you're out of minions and lieutenants, you're left with the really big single targets where AoE powers end up weaker than ST powers. You can verify this in-game with pretty much any mission or TF with Elite Bosses or Archvillains - after five seconds, which enemies are still left standing?

 

Making Brutes the AoE specialist would hurt them more than help them, and then we're hitting Tankers as collateral with this change. I think we can give Brutes an identity without having to hit Tanker to do so.

[Triumphant]

I still feel like most of the farmers I see in Pocket-D AE are still Brutes, though (though, yes- I see a few tanks and some other AT's mixed in there on occasion).  If Brutes are so terribly nerfed, then why wouldn't all the farmers be switching to tanks?  It's not like they can't dual-box AFK farm them to 50 in like an hour.  And thanks to having billions of infl, they can slot them with purples right out of the gate.  🤷‍♂️

 

I feel like (in pve, at least) Brutes are pretty well-balanced as a sort of damage/toughness mix that fits pretty well in between scrappers and tankers.  I've got a T3 incarnate Savage/SR brute as one of my mains, and it's right up there with my favorite tanks and scrappers as far as my personal preferences for playing the game go.

 

Having said all of the above, I will admit I am not an expert AT builder or number cruncher, so I'm approaching this topic exclusively from the perspective of a fairly casual player with mediocre skill.

Edited April 22 by Triumphant

[Haijinx]

27 minutes ago, CrusaderDroid said:

Because Scrappers do AoE damage too, except they can crit.

 

AoE isn't as useful anyways since just about everyone gets it and any combination of AoE quickly cleans out everything it should be hitting. Once you're out of minions and lieutenants, you're left with the really big single targets where AoE powers end up weaker than ST powers. You can verify this in-game with pretty much any mission or TF with Elite Bosses or Archvillains - after five seconds, which enemies are still left standing?

 

Making Brutes the AoE specialist would hurt them more than help them, and then we're hitting Tankers as collateral with this change. I think we can give Brutes an identity without having to hit Tanker to do so.

Well the idea would be to give Brutes the bigger AOE radius and arc changes Tankers got instead.::

[tidge]

2 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

I feel like (in pve, at least) Brutes are pretty well-balanced as a sort of damage/toughness mix that fits pretty well in between scrappers and tankers. 

 

I agree: They are well balanced, I suspect that some of the complaints are that Brutes are no longer "the best" at whatever. Let's face it: giving Tankers improved AoE was not "nerfing" Brutes. It is easier to get Brutes to a point where they hit this sort of balance earlier and/or with less effort, yet I don't question that there is some content where a "well-balanced" solo build will see certain levels of performance eclipsed by alternate options.

 

Fury is a different sort of mechanic (and not one I have ever liked if I am being honest, *1) that probably could be re-jiggered but it has been such a long-standing part of the AT identity that I'm personally not sure what sort of change would make Brute advocates feel good. I can understand that because for so long in the game there could be a simplified analysis of MOAR FURY -> MOAR DAMAGE -> BEST DPS -> BEST REWARDS, such that as soon as some non-Brute is achieving "better DPS" or "Better Rewards" (by some arbitrary measure) I can understand some people feeling like Brutes having become a second class AT.  It's not like a Defender, Controller or Kheldian is suddenly going to be earning "Better Rewards, Faster" than a Brute.

 

*1 One of the things I never liked about Fury is the original "building and sustaining" aspect. I can see why farming (AFK or otherwise) leans toward Brutes, but for typical content this guy (points to self) solo or in teams I always found it to be one more thing to pay attention to on top of everything else happening on the map. I don't have alternate suggestions for it, I only mention my dislike of Fury because it's the number one reason why I have always eschewed Brutes.

[Indystruck]

57 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

I still feel like most of the farmers I see in Pocket-D AE are still Brutes, though (though, yes- I see a few tanks and some other AT's mixed in there on occasion).  If Brutes are so terribly nerfed, then why wouldn't all the farmers be switching to tanks?  It's not like they can't dual-box AFK farm them to 50 in like an hour.  And thanks to having billions of infl, they can slot them with purples right out of the gate.  🤷‍♂️

 

well, here's the thing:

 

i'm lazy

[Steampunkette]

Increasing a Brute's damage output by much will threaten Scrappers...

 

Increasing a Brute's ability to gather aggro by much will threaten Tankers...

 

So how about their ability to ignore effects?

 

Right out of the gate there was a suggestion to add Slow protection to Brutes and I think that's a good start. Giving them increasing -Recharge and -Speed protection as they generate fury would absolutely fit within the archetype of becoming an unstoppable "Hulk" type character. But I'd probably take it further than that.

 

Add -Regen and -Recovery protection. Add Mez resistance. Maybe add in a ToHit Buff and +Perception so enemies can't smokebomb or use Dark Blasts to floor the Brute's ability to keep fighting. (These values much smaller than the slow protection, but still present. Like a 20% ToHit at max fury)

 

Scrapper? Best at damage. Tanker? Best at survival. Stalker? Best eliminator.

 

Brute? Unstoppable rage beast. You can't slow them down, you can barely debuff them, even if you manage to Mez them they break out of it faster.

 

It wouldn't make them hit harder, but could make them hit more consistently with all the force they've got.

[CrusaderDroid]

18 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Increasing a Brute's damage output by much will threaten Scrappers...

 

Increasing a Brute's ability to gather aggro by much will threaten Tankers...

 

So how about their ability to ignore effects?

 

Right out of the gate there was a suggestion to add Slow protection to Brutes and I think that's a good start. Giving them increasing -Recharge and -Speed protection as they generate fury would absolutely fit within the archetype of becoming an unstoppable "Hulk" type character. But I'd probably take it further than that.

 

Add -Regen and -Recovery protection. Add Mez resistance. Maybe add in a ToHit Buff and +Perception so enemies can't smokebomb or use Dark Blasts to floor the Brute's ability to keep fighting. (These values much smaller than the slow protection, but still present. Like a 20% ToHit at max fury)

 

Scrapper? Best at damage. Tanker? Best at survival. Stalker? Best eliminator.

 

Brute? Unstoppable rage beast. You can't slow them down, you can barely debuff them, even if you manage to Mez them they break out of it faster.

 

It wouldn't make them hit harder, but could make them hit more consistently with all the force they've got.

It's a really fun idea! I'd test it, honestly, if it were up to me. It would play into the low-maintenance idea of Brutes, not needing quite as much support.

 

I'm just not sure how useful that will be. The problems here are that a lot of those are focused on defensive effects that are hard to notice, and that armor sets already tend to grant at least one power that offers solid protection against multiple mez types. I'm spoiled by Shield Defense's Active Defense in particular, which grants a lot of protection against all mez types.

 

The really tricky bit about defenses is that they're much harder to appreciate since they're largely invisible. You have no big visual effect when your status protection negates a mez - you're unlikely to even notice you were targeted by a mez in the first place. You can't really notice toHit buffs if you were already hitting reliably before. These kinds of invisible powers are difficult because that means even if it's completely busted, a player can reasonably come to the conclusion that it isn't helping at all. It's wrong, but it's still not helping Brute as much as we'd like.

 

I think some elements of this might be part of the puzzle though. A more resilient offense sounds good, but I think it needs to be paired with something active that the Brute can interact with, instead of being solely reliant on negating incoming negative effects.

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, CrusaderDroid said:

...These kinds of invisible powers are difficult because that means even if it's completely busted, a player can reasonably come to the conclusion that it isn't helping at all. It's wrong, but it's still not helping Brute as much as we'd like.

 

I think some elements of this might be part of the puzzle though.

 

As a thought experiment: Would Brutes be happier if the Brute inherent was swapped with another ATs inherent, such as what the Kheldians or VEATS have?

[CrusaderDroid]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

As a thought experiment: Would Brutes be happier if the Brute inherent was swapped with another ATs inherent, such as what the Kheldians or VEATS have?

I don't think so. Brute scalars were balanced around Fury. Removing Fury outright, even if you gave them Blaster's inherent, would take away too much damage to where they wouldn't be able to compete with Scrappers at all. Since Tankers have higher target caps and higher values on their armors, pretty much any other possible inherent that doesn't use Fury would leave Brutes at the bottom of the pack.

[PeregrineFalcon]

57 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

So how about their ability to ignore effects?

So their specific role, their identity, would be the raging brute that can't be stopped, can't be slowed, can't be debilitated. "That's what he does! That's ALL he does! You can't stop him! He'll wade through you, reach down her throat and pull her heart out!"

 

Ok, let's say, for sake of discussion, that this is the decision. What numbers would you recommend? +1 mag mez protection per 20% Fury, and Fury x 100 mez resistance, and Fury x 2 = % debuff resistance?

[Haijinx]

The sad thing is the status protection gimmick would have been a great Tanker buff.

[Shin Magmus]

6 hours ago, Triumphant said:

I still feel like most of the farmers I see in Pocket-D AE are still Brutes, though (though, yes- I see a few tanks and some other AT's mixed in there on occasion).  If Brutes are so terribly nerfed, then why wouldn't all the farmers be switching to tanks?  It's not like they can't dual-box AFK farm them to 50 in like an hour.  And thanks to having billions of infl, they can slot them with purples right out of the gate.  🤷‍♂️

People don't want to spend time and energy switching and making new farmers, regardless of how much or how little work it is.  Also, most players don't care about being optimal (read this thread for direct evidence of that) and therefore, may not even know that there's something better than their Brute.

[Haijinx]

What it seems like is the Tanker buff really emphasized the COH plan, not the combined Coh/COV plan. 

 

Making Brutes not really fit. Because they don't fit in COH.

[Shin Magmus]

   A fixed ATO, slightly improved bulk (the scalar thing for Brutes is past due and still needs to be looked at: midway between Scrapper and Tanker just makes sense), and any one of the secondary stat buffs being pitched (Recharge rate, debuff resistance, mez resistance) will be sufficient to at least make a Brute build have some innate appeal over a Scrapper or Tanker build with the same powersets.  Bonus Recharge and debuff resistance would be especially helpful for Regen Brutes as a specific example.  There's good ideas being suggested, we just need some of the devs on the Powers Team to actually listen.  If they can just let go of their vendetta against AE farming and realize that Brutes are struggling in the rest of the game, we might see a better game for all players.

[Videra]

7 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

   A fixed ATO, slightly improved bulk (the scalar thing for Brutes is past due and still needs to be looked at: midway between Scrapper and Tanker just makes sense), and any one of the secondary stat buffs being pitched (Recharge rate, debuff resistance, mez resistance) will be sufficient to at least make a Brute build have some innate appeal over a Scrapper or Tanker build with the same powersets.  Bonus Recharge and debuff resistance would be especially helpful for Regen Brutes as a specific example.  There's good ideas being suggested, we just need some of the devs on the Powers Team to actually listen.  If they can just let go of their vendetta against AE farming and realize that Brutes are struggling in the rest of the game, we might see a better game for all players.

 

TBH, the fact that several targeted nerfs to things that used to rule AE farming have made the game overall worse is genuinely depressing.

 

Make Brutes have something that causes them to have appeal over a scrapper or tanker, so many good suggestions have been made in this thread - and if a non-issue like farming really is such a big deal to the powers devs? Shrimply remove Influence rewards from AE, problem instantly solved.

[Videra]

14 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

What it seems like is the Tanker buff really emphasized the COH plan, not the combined Coh/COV plan. 

 

Making Brutes not really fit. Because they don't fit in COH.

 

I'd really like to know what this statement actually even means. CoH and CoV are the same game - Brute and Tanker can start on the same factions. This is a balance issue, it has nothing to do with a perceived rift between the two variants of CoX.

[Herotu]

There is a point at which the thread repeats itself because newcomers don't read the old posts.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

I'd really like to know what this statement actually even means. CoH and CoV are the same game - Brute and Tanker can start on the same factions. This is a balance issue, it has nothing to do with a perceived rift between the two variants of CoX.

Coh and Cov were not designed to live together.

 

They were intentionally designed NOT to.  On purpose. 

 

You could not switch sides. The rift was very much part of the original plan.  

 

Did it matter if Brutes could outdamage Scrappers and also often survive as long as Tanks PVE?  Nope, cause Brutes were Redside.

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Did it matter if Brutes could outdamage Scrappers and also often survive as long as Tanks PVE?  Nope, cause Brutes were Redside.

   But that history doesn't matter anymore.  All that matters is fixing the problems now, and the way the game works now.  New players to the game literally don't care about anything you just said as it has no effect on them and they can't go back to the game pre-Going Rogue.  That's why we're pitching solutions to the problem.