An Identity for Brutes?

[Videra]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Coh and Cov were not designed to live together.

 

They were intentionally designed NOT to.  On purpose. 

 

You could not switch sides. The rift was very much part of the original plan.  

 

Did it matter if Brutes could outdamage Scrappers and also often survive as long as Tanks PVE?  Nope, cause Brutes were Redside.

 

That . . . is meaningless. That history hasn't existed since the days before GR.

 

People are pitching solutions to the problem. Do you have any ideas in there that might be good?

[Haijinx]

Just now, Shin Magmus said:

   But that history doesn't matter anymore.  All that matters is fixing the problems now,

Sort of?  All the current fixes have been just band aids without any real look at the bigger scope of the game design.  

 

And a very real trepidation to rollback any bandaid that didn't  work right. Like the Tanker buffs.

 

People coming from games where they have 12+ ATs don't usually get that COH was designed for 5, and never had the room for the granularity they expect.

[Shin Magmus]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

People coming from games where they have 12+ ATs don't usually get that COH was designed for 5, and never had the room for the granularity they expect.

This is beating a dead horse at this point and should move to its own topic.  I'm going to reiterate that how CoH/CoV used to work is no longer relevant at all, and won't be going forward.

[PeregrineFalcon]

53 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The sad thing is the status protection gimmick would have been a great Tanker buff.

Yeah, except Tankers don't really need it though.

 

In any case, Fury giving Brutes a really high mez and debuff protection would definitely give them their own identity. "Can't be slowed, can't be stopped, can only be killed."

[gabrilend]

34 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

TBH, the fact that several targeted nerfs to things that used to rule AE farming have made the game overall worse is genuinely depressing.

 

Make Brutes have something that causes them to have appeal over a scrapper or tanker, so many good suggestions have been made in this thread - and if a non-issue like farming really is such a big deal to the powers devs? Shrimply remove Influence rewards from AE, problem instantly solved.

 

 

Gaining Infamy and Influence in AE doesn't make a lot of sense thematically either. Like, is the simulation you're engaging with being live-streamed on the internet or something? Isn't this game set in 2004? "Watch out for The Punchinator, he's really good at playing video games" uh-huh yeah

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

That . . . is meaningless. That history hasn't existed since the days before GR.

 

People are pitching solutions to the problem. Do you have any ideas in there that might be good?

 

Not meaningless.  Context.

 

We have to balance 4 melee Ats though, not 1.

 

Ideas? Several. 

 

First, fix Brute's ATO if it's broken. Also give some of their damage cap back.  No one can self buff past 700% without insp anyhow and if you are getting it from team Support, who cares if the Brute is one shoting bosses 80% of the time and the Scrapper only is 75% of the time? Stuff is still just getting steamrolled.

 

Then adjust ...

 

Easiest- Make Brutes the melee AOE specialists.  

Revert the Tanker AOE radius and Arc expansions and give them to Brutes.

 

This would not touch the current Stalker/Scrapper/Brute ST damage difference. Yay. 

-------‐-------

 

2nd Easiest- since they already reduced Brute damage in favor of Scrappers.  They owe Brutes some Tanker Durability.  Increase their base values for Def, Resist in their armor sets from 0.75 to 0.85.  Possibly some other armor fixes.  Maybe more mez resist w/e, Make it very clear Brutes are halfway between Tanks and Scrappers for durability.   

 

The problem I see there is it doesn't address Tanker's dmg outclassing Brutes.

 

------

Middle Ground,

Make Brutes Primary Armor, Secondary Melee damage. 

Give them Tanker Scale everything, then adjust Fury to give Brutes more damage than Tankers.  

There would need to be tradeoff adjustments from there, in durability and Aggro control.

 

That is nice since it gives us 2 tank ATs and 2 melee DPs making separations easier.   But I doubt anyone would go for it.

 

________________

Hardest, though it's probably better from a game design standpoint -

 

Remove Brutes and Stalkers from the game.

 

Brutes are Scrappers with certain offensive powersets like SS or Savage, etc.  so an effect based on being brutish.

 

Stalkers are Scrappers with certain Def stealthy powersets like Nin or Dark or Energy

 

But really that path is unlikely.  

 

The big problem though is you have to define each AT.  You can't just say they are already defined, because the legacy definitions predate Going Rogue.

[Haijinx]

38 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

This is beating a dead horse at this point and should move to its own topic.  

You seem to have the unfortunate habit of either declaring victory in threads, or deciding when we should or should not discuss them.

 

I imagine it is just word choice and not a concious choice of claiming to be the boss of the thread.  But this is the third time I've seen it since I got stuck in here a few days ago, and now it's being used to address me. 

 

I being it up becuase when the devs do make balance passes the do not just think Brute vs Tanker. When the Tanker choices were being made the place of Scrappers were also of high import and openly referenced. 

 

And the reason we have so many near identical Ats .... and so on.

[CrusaderDroid]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

You seem to have the unfortunate habit of either declaring victory in threads, or deciding when we should or should not discuss them.

It took you until just now to start trying to be part of the solution instead of arguing over a game state long since past. With all due respect, Shin's been trying to get things on topic while your posts were more likely to cause off-topic detours.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, CrusaderDroid said:

It took you until just now to start trying to be part of the solution instead of arguing over a game state long since past. With all due respect, Shin's been trying to get things on topic while your posts were more likely to cause off-topic detours.

Because I personally think all these adjustments are bandaids.  And no way Cap PH or whoever is doing it these days will go for them anyhow. So it's unfortunate. 

 

I think this entire game as a sort of "diced based rpg simulator" is off the rails at this point.

 

Not the front end lore, concepts and that stuff, but under the hood. 

 

But someone asked specifically if I had ideas so shrug, ideas are easy. Some we've talked about for years.

 

[golstat2003]

We can discuss suggestions as much as we want, it’s up to the dev team to decide to make changes. Just don’t expect changes anytime soon.

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

We can discuss suggestions as much as we want, it’s up to the dev team to decide to make changes. Just don’t expect changes anytime soon.

Should there be changes?

If brutes are the most played AT, and the vast majority seem happy with them the way they are - is there a need to change them?

 

[Troo]

11 hours ago, Duckbutler said:

well rounded. It doesn't make a strong statement even though it can provide a very good experience provided that both aspects of the character are actually sufficient for the content you're trying to do. I suspect that's part of their enduring popularity in game despite the forum complaints.

 

+1

could be why some folks like playing sentinels.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Easiest- Make Brutes the melee AOE specialists.  

Revert the Tanker AOE radius and Arc expansions and give them to Brutes.

You can certainly dream all you want but let's be honest here for a minute. The Council of Fourteen is not going to take the AOE buff away from Tankers and give it to Brutes.

 

That's why I like Steampunkette's suggestion about having Fury add mez protection and debuff resistance. It gives Brutes a specific identity that the other melee ATs don't have without having to take anything from them. And it does it in a way that won't really improve AFK farming.

[Troo]

10 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

but the 1-50 leveling experience is not the whole game.

 

w o w

😛

 

10 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

I think we can make a change to address its late-game stuff and give it a proper identity without losing what makes it so popular now.

 

Fixed this for you.

 

-------- -- --------

 

I get it. You want a special identity for Brutes.

 

The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway.

 

Brutes live to fight, and as a Brute you revel in hand-to-hand combat. With strong offensive power sets to inflict pain and impressive defenses to take it, you're the best there is in a straight fight. Protracted battles only makes you mad, and the madder you get, the more damaging your attacks become.

 

The Scrapper is a fierce melee combatant. In hand to hand, no other hero can compare. But the Scrapper is not as resilient as the Tanker, and might find himself in a little trouble if he heedlessly wades into combat.

 

Above is where we are at. Brutes being well rounded is not necessarily middle of the road.

It is the warm embrace of being able to punch someone in the face and not being terribly worried about getting hit back.

Tanks got a buff, so what. Fix the Brute ATO situation and maybe pick some stuff out of the @Steampunkette suggestions. Boom. A baby buff for Brutes.

 

[Enamel_32]

Fury is a good power to focus on, rather than sweeping numerical changes, because its effects change over time and I feel the dynamism is part of the draw. A brute at full fury should feel like a force of nature, something terrible to behold. It takes (or should take) time, a bit of resource management, and decision making to build and maintain a lot of fury - an investment - so what fury provides should be rewarding. Today, it's what helps a brute achieve competitive damage output.

 

I like the idea of providing mez resistance, and potentially mez protection (IMO that's tricky to balance) as fury builds. It's definitely in line with building that sense of overwhelming momentum. I've thought about suggesting recovery of an endurance discount, but some powerset combos aren't going to ever notice a change like that.

 

I also like the idea of increasing target caps as fury increases, but at the same time, it's kind of copying the tanker's homework. Maybe it's less of an issue if their AoE sizes don't scale up as well?

 

Looking at the field we have steady-state damage with some natural variance from critical hits with scrappers, more controllable alpha strike damage from stalkers, and most recently some serious AoE output from tankers. What's left for brutes aside from just bouncing between those goalposts? So now, a couple thoughts for consideration:

• Add a minimum fury level based on missing HP. Getting smacked down to 60% health grants you a guaranteed 40% fury to retaliate with.
• As fury increases, a portion of damage dealt bypasses enemy resistance. Pretending it's doable, brutes at full tilt become a source of more reliable damage, no matter the enemy type.

Edited April 23 by Enamel_32

[biostem]

I wonder if they could take buildup and rework the mechanics a little;  Reduce the damage buff it grants, and instead, have it max out your fury bar and hold it there for the duration of the power, (on top of making it easier to raise up).

[gabrilend]

What if any fury gained over the cap instead of being wasted is turned into temporary health?

[biostem]

40 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

What if any fury gained over the cap instead of being wasted is turned into temporary health?

I'm still of a mind that giving brutes more hp/temporary hp via fury isn't the answer;  It's how to make achieving and maintaining fury at its maximum level, easier, that I think would be more useful.

Edited April 23 by biostem

[Lyone_Manes]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yeah, except Tankers don't really need it though.

 

In any case, Fury giving Brutes a really high mez and debuff protection would definitely give them their own identity. "Can't be slowed, can't be stopped, can only be killed."

I think it would actually help the AT out as a whole too...Suddenly Regen is a pretty top-tier Brute Power.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, gabrilend said:

What if any fury gained over the cap instead of being wasted

 

Maybe just this part.

 

Hmm.. the more Fury the longer it lasts. 🤯

 

A similar suggestion came up for draining endurance from targets. Let it drain below zero. This would let players keep a target stuck at zero, rather than bouncing off zero.

 

For Fury, attaining and staying at capped Fury for periods -vs- how it is now.

Let it build over the cap. Same benefit as being at the cap, but a little easier to stay there and takes longer to drop below the cap.

 

(could this be as easy as a one or two variable change?) https://cod.uberguy.net/html/archetype.html?at=brute

 

Edited April 23 by Troo

[Shin Magmus]

9 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

We can discuss suggestions as much as we want, it’s up to the dev team to decide to make changes. Just don’t expect changes anytime soon.

   But we can get a bugfix for the almost totally useless Brute's Fury ATO proc "soon" hopefully... right devs?  I mean, surely fixing the bug related to flags on the proc can't be that hard and isn't too much to ask?

[Haijinx]

11 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You can certainly dream all you want but let's be honest here for a minute. The Council of Fourteen is not going to take the AOE buff away from Tankers and give it to Brutes.

 

Oh I know.  That was in response to the question, did I have any ideas.

 

Not in response to the question what did I think the Devs would do.  That question is a lot simpler.  Nothing.  

 

They have hemmed Brutes in on damage.  They can't raise their ST above scrappers.  And the Tanker AOE change is years old now 

 

I imagine that's why the mezz prot idea appeals so much, at least it's not railed off by previous Dev judgements. But thing is the mez prot Brutes could use are the ones the devs are the most leery about rewarding.  

 

Because it should probably be stuff like, DDR, recharge reduction resistance, regen reduction resistance, damage reduction resistance, to hit reduction resistance, fear resist, repel resist etc.  Enough that at 90% or so fury the Brute could laugh at most of those. 

 

I think that stuff would be fair, since Brutes lost a lot to Tankers.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

   But we can get a bugfix for the almost totally useless Brute's Fury ATO proc "soon" hopefully... right devs?  I mean, surely fixing the bug related to flags on the proc can't be that hard and isn't too much to ask?

That bug fix should happen.  Since the entire fury building mechanic was altered as part of the Tanker change in the first place. 

 

Will it? I don't know.  But it seems unfair not to do that much ASAP. 

[Haijinx]

11 hours ago, Troo said:

 

w o w

😛

 

 

Fixed this for you.

 

-------- -- --------

 

I get it. You want a special identity for Brutes.

 

The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway.

 

Brutes live to fight, and as a Brute you revel in hand-to-hand combat. With strong offensive power sets to inflict pain and impressive defenses to take it, you're the best there is in a straight fight. Protracted battles only makes you mad, and the madder you get, the more damaging your attacks become.

 

The Scrapper is a fierce melee combatant. In hand to hand, no other hero can compare. But the Scrapper is not as resilient as the Tanker, and might find himself in a little trouble if he heedlessly wades into combat.

 @Steampunkette

 

The impression I always got from these were that scrappers and brutes are basically the same role.  

 

And incidentally most of my characters have been Brutes and Scrappers.

 

With a few Tankers, Stalkers, Widows and Blasters thrown in.

 

 

[Steampunkette]

19 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

It's a really fun idea! I'd test it, honestly, if it were up to me. It would play into the low-maintenance idea of Brutes, not needing quite as much support.

 

I'm just not sure how useful that will be. The problems here are that a lot of those are focused on defensive effects that are hard to notice, and that armor sets already tend to grant at least one power that offers solid protection against multiple mez types. I'm spoiled by Shield Defense's Active Defense in particular, which grants a lot of protection against all mez types.

 

The really tricky bit about defenses is that they're much harder to appreciate since they're largely invisible. You have no big visual effect when your status protection negates a mez - you're unlikely to even notice you were targeted by a mez in the first place. You can't really notice toHit buffs if you were already hitting reliably before. These kinds of invisible powers are difficult because that means even if it's completely busted, a player can reasonably come to the conclusion that it isn't helping at all. It's wrong, but it's still not helping Brute as much as we'd like.

 

I think some elements of this might be part of the puzzle though. A more resilient offense sounds good, but I think it needs to be paired with something active that the Brute can interact with, instead of being solely reliant on negating incoming negative effects.

 

S'truth. What if you had a new button, a Brute-Specific button, to sacrifice Fury for a Recharge boost? Like lose 50% of your current Fury for a 30% Recharge bonus lasting 10 seconds? Sort of a "Fury-based Build Up" mechanic?

 

18 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So their specific role, their identity, would be the raging brute that can't be stopped, can't be slowed, can't be debilitated. "That's what he does! That's ALL he does! You can't stop him! He'll wade through you, reach down her throat and pull her heart out!"

 

Ok, let's say, for sake of discussion, that this is the decision. What numbers would you recommend? +1 mag mez protection per 20% Fury, and Fury x 100 mez resistance, and Fury x 2 = % debuff resistance?

 

Not Mez Protection, just Resistance. And probably a 1% to 1% resistance to slow/mez/regen/recovery. Most of the time you'll wind up "Capped" at around 87% resistance increase from Fury, making you ridiculously hard to debuff but not impossible unless your armor set also provides resistance on top of it.