An Identity for Brutes?

[Vic Raiden]

What is it with some balance suggestions erupting into lengthy flame wars, again?

[Shin Magmus]

Easy, we just get back on the topic: which is bugfixing something wrong with Brutes, and buffing them to give them both an identity and relevance.

 

We ignore the bait topic about how the game is balanced: that can go into a different thread.

[CrusaderDroid]

We've already got several spinoff threads from this one, so we're doing better than it may seem!

[tidge]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:02 PM, FupDup said:

There's a difference between relative balance and absolute balance.

(Relative means that you stayed the same but other things changed around you, absolute means that you actually changed directly). 

 

From a relative standpoint, Brutes now feel worse because Tankers are almost a direct upgrade (15% higher ST damage on Brutes isn't that big of an edge).

 

From an absolute standpoint, Brutes only received a very small nerf to their base kit (max damage buff reduced from 775% to 700%) in the same patch that buffed Tankers (the Fire Armor thing is separate from the AT as a whole). But then again, Brutes also got a slight buff to Fury in that same patch to make it generate a wee bit faster on teams and with attacks slower than Brawl. If the Brute changes were the only things that went through and Tankers never got touched, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

This feels like the truest thing written in the thread.

 

Before CoV was launched: Scrappers were favored over Tankers because it wasn't that hard to get Resistance/Defenses on a Scrapper to the point where the much faster defeat/map clear times of a Scrapper. There were of course numerous Fire tankers that existed primarily to mindlessly collect XP and inf due to the original critter AI, but for most content of that era, Scrappers were the melee class.

 

When CoV introduced Brutes, they basically were Scrappers with an easier time of hitting the Defense/Resistance of Tankers, but with a mechanic to make it easier for them to get to/exceed Scrapper levels of damage. [Let's sidestep all PVP talking points, as I don't think there is a clear argument to be made about PVP regarding balance among melee types for that or any other era, except that boy did the devs misread PVP Stun!]

 

When sides could mix: Now there are multiple ATs that can compete with Tankers for survivability, all of which do more damage, also faster, across almost all game content. It remains pretty easy to make (solo) characters more survivable, but there are precious few ways to give characters more damage. At HC launch, there were months of players discussing (on a spectrum ranging from cold calculations of DPS to "neener-neener") in-game talking down Tankers and explicitly promoting Brutes as superior. It is impossible to know what specific content was the basis for these arguments, as from my PoV except for +4 AV fights, AFK farms, and some specific enemy types, Scrappers and Stalkers were never slackers... but I digress.

 

The Tanker AoE buff (plus aggro management changes) was well-motivated, smart, and happened to have a side effect that for some types of play, and certain builds (power and slotting choices) a solo Tanker can clear a map faster than a solo Brute. From my PoV this is 100% due to a Tanker simply being able to hit more minions in large spawns. the number of hits required to defeat a single minion hasn't changed it's just that now Tankers don't have throw as many attacks at multiple critters. The inherent way spawns are constructed and scale up, for most content the large number of minions used to be a HUGE delay for Tankers... Writing for myself: before the AoE increase I found it easier to clear x8 spawns with Controllers than with Tankers! I find Tankers still go somewhat slow against large spawns of enemies that resist grouping up (even when using Taunt)... Praetorian clocks come to mind... because those larger AoE simply aren't reaching as many critters in a spawn.

 

As an aside: I understand the potential team-effects of how to increase both damage and survivability of each different type of AT... but the game clearly is not balanced around the assumption that each AT has a a specific ally boosting Damage/resistance/Defense/whatever.

 

I appreciate the OP being open to find a new niche for Brutes... but I'm not convinced that many of the vocal advocates for change (some in this thread) would accept the AT moving to a different niche. It's clear that there are some people that just want the Brute AT to be better... I don't know if there is even agreement that the Brute should simply be better than it currently is, or that Brutes need to be better than some other specific AT (hence the arguments and datamining in specific content). I think it is more productive to focus on the former, if there are specific defects with the AT.

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

8 minutes ago, tidge said:

I appreciate the OP being open to find a new niche for Brutes... but I'm not convinced that many of the vocal advocates for change (some in this thread) would accept the AT moving to a different niche. It's clear that there are some people that just want the Brute AT to be better... I don't know if there is even agreement that the Brute should simply be better than it currently is, or that Brutes need to be better than some other specific AT (hence the arguments and datamining in specific content). I think it is more productive to focus on the former, if there are specific defects with the AT.

The data shows that there are specific defects with the AT.  The people making rational arguments, that include performance on Advanced Mode team comps at end-game and comparative analysis with Scrappers and Tankers, already know that Brutes have no niche amongst them and no identity of their own anymore.  Yes, people do "just want the Brute AT to be better".  Brutes deserve it.

[tidge]

Just now, Shin Magmus said:

The data shows that there are specific defects with the AT.  The people making rational arguments, that include performance on Advanced Mode team comps at end-game and comparative analysis with Scrappers and Tankers, already know that Brutes have no niche amongst them and no identity of their own anymore.  Yes, people do "just want the Brute AT to be better".  Brutes deserve it.

 

I'll bluntly admit my own defects: I see a LOT of comparison between Brutes, Scrappers and Tankers for specific content... but I don't see similar comparisons for other ATs in the same content... with the exception of one or two players trying to take certain other ATs through Trapdoor tests.

 

A further personal defect of mine: when map clear times for things like Hard Mode or +4x8 shows consistent differences for a few ATs that complete whatever challenge in under three minutes... I don't think it is worth claiming that any of those ATs require improvement. YMMV.

[FupDup]

I'm not arguing against Brute changes here, but it's kind of worth pointing out that Hardmode tends to result in a meta of 7 ranged supports with one melee AT, and that melee actually ends up being a Scrapper more often than a Tanker these days. Scraps are able to fulfill the melee tank role "good enough" when megabuffed by allies/Barrier while providing more damage. Are we going to conclude that Tankers are underpowered from this?

 

Hardmode's meta is kinda sorta fucked, to the extreme, so if even the mighty Tanker of all things can't compete against a Scrapper there, it's gonna be real hard to make a Brute compete without just making them outright better than Scrappers. Again, I'm not saying don't change Brutes, I posted some ideas of mine earlier, I'm just saying that maybe there might be some underlying/overarching metagame issues to resolve so we can get a more clear picture here. And hopefully have a meta that isn't a harem of 7 ranged supports following an armored melee AT of some sort. 

Edited April 21 by FupDup

[Shin Magmus]

27 minutes ago, tidge said:

A further personal defect of mine: when map clear times for things like Hard Mode or +4x8 shows consistent differences for a few ATs that complete whatever challenge in under three minutes... I don't think it is worth claiming that any of those ATs require improvement. YMMV.

     I disagree with everything about this point.  The absolute time in question is irrelevant to comparative analysis, and the way you phrase it makes it seem like you have a problem with people who can go fast or who have good builds; everyone plays the game differently.  However, the proportional time difference between those ATs all doing [example] in [sub 3 minutes] matters a lot, if one of the ATs in the comparison uses the exact same powers as the others... but is weaker in offense and defense, and repeatedly clocks in 20-25% slower than the other ATs.  That proportional difference would be the same even if they were measured doing something that takes 2 hours, but now the bad AT (Brutes) is lagging behind by 24 minutes or more.  Do you see how this makes sense?

[Indystruck]

15 hours ago, wjrasmussen said:

 I disagree that it is balanced around IOs. 

[wjrasmussen]

45 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

I don't think the game is balanced.  If you think it is, show the mathematical proof of it.

[CrusaderDroid]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I appreciate the OP being open to find a new niche for Brutes... but I'm not convinced that many of the vocal advocates for change (some in this thread) would accept the AT moving to a different niche. It's clear that there are some people that just want the Brute AT to be better... I don't know if there is even agreement that the Brute should simply be better than it currently is, or that Brutes need to be better than some other specific AT (hence the arguments and datamining in specific content). I think it is more productive to focus on the former, if there are specific defects with the AT.

In the very worst case, you revert a change in open beta before it hits live. You still get the data such that everyone knows "well, that didn't work", and you go from there.

 

I don't really buy into this defeatist outlook that we're stuck with the way things are. I'm optimistic enough to think that there's a way to puzzle this out so we can untangle Brute from the Scrapper and Tanker so we're not looking at these direct comparisons any more and so we don't ever have to think "is Brute better than Tanker this patch".

 

50 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

I love the gif, but it's better to ignore off-topic posters than to mock them. Keeps the mods happy and the discussion flowing.

[Indystruck]

5 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

I don't think the game is balanced.  If you think it is, show the mathematical proof of it.

sure take a look:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X0-rXkF4eyhJRRuETgEFO7RDjjLw1UZAdPVlE1rMqUs/edit#gid=0

[tidge]

54 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I disagree with everything about this point.  The absolute time in question is irrelevant to comparative analysis, and the way you phrase it makes it seem like you have a problem with people who can go fast or who have good builds; everyone plays the game differently.  However, the proportional time difference between those ATs all doing [example] in [sub 3 minutes] matters a lot, if one of the ATs in the comparison uses the exact same powers as the others... but is weaker in offense and defense, and repeatedly clocks in 20-25% slower than the other ATs.  That proportional difference would be the same even if they were measured doing something that takes 2 hours, but now the bad AT (Brutes) is lagging behind by 24 minutes or more.  Do you see how this makes sense?

 

I don't.

 

Are you suggesting that there is some specific content that takes a Brute 24 minutes longer than a Scrapper or Tanker?

[macskull]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

Hardmode's meta is kinda sorta fucked, to the extreme, so if even the mighty Tanker of all things can't compete against a Scrapper there, it's gonna be real hard to make a Brute compete without just making them outright better than Scrappers. Again, I'm not saying don't change Brutes, I posted some ideas of mine earlier, I'm just saying that maybe there might be some underlying/overarching metagame issues to resolve so we can get a more clear picture here. And hopefully have a meta that isn't a harem of 7 ranged supports following an armored melee AT of some sort. 

FWIW a Tanker is usually the play over a Scrapper on LGTF because the higher resist cap, better aggro management, and higher HP actually does end up mattering (for one 5-10 minute portion of the TF, anyways). Outside of hard mode, though, if we're talking "speedy meta" teams it's almost always just a bunch of Blasters with one or two Corruptors, melee need not apply.

[Blastit]

41 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I don't.

 

Are you suggesting that there is some specific content that takes a Brute 24 minutes longer than a Scrapper or Tanker?

 

A general gaming session, I guess. Not sure how much it really matters on a team but solo it's possible you could complete fewer things in an hour of play on some ATs than on others. To some degree that's originally intentional but w/e

[Shin Magmus]

45 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I don't.

 

Are you suggesting that there is some specific content that takes a Brute 24 minutes longer than a Scrapper or Tanker?

Yes, quite literally anything long enough.  If Brutes are X% slower on 3 minute content, then they're still X% slower on 3 hour content.  Now that we've cleared this up, back to the topic of how to improve Brutes.

[tidge]

11 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

Yes, quite literally anything long enough.  If Brutes are X% slower on 3 minute content, then they're still X% slower on 3 hour content.  Now that we've cleared this up...

 

Sounds hypothetical at this point. What content are you basing this set of arguments on?

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

I don't.

 

Are you suggesting that there is some specific content that takes a Brute 24 minutes longer than a Scrapper or Tanker?

And 24 minutes compared to?

 

On a Yin Tf that's huge.  On a Dr Q, that's nothing.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, CrusaderDroid said:

I don't really buy into this defeatist outlook that we're stuck with the way things are. I'm optimistic enough to think that there's a way to puzzle this out so we can untangle Brute from the Scrapper and Tanker so we're not looking at these direct comparisons any more and so we don't ever have to think "is Brute better than Tanker this patch".

I like your positivity CrusaderDroid.  I agree, this isn't the thread to teach people how proportions work and other basic math.  We should stay on the topic of buffing Brutes and giving them an identity again.

[Haijinx]

Assuming competitive power sets.

 

Brutes shouldn't be slower at any content they can survive than Tankers.

 

But they shouldn't be faster than any content than Scrappers that the Scrapper can survive.

 

It's the second that seems to be tripping people up.  

[tidge]

12 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

And 24 minutes compared to?

 

On a Yin Tf that's huge.  On a Dr Q, that's nothing.

 

I agree with this argument in theory, so has it been demonstrated that the same Yin TF takes a Brute 24 minutes longer to finish than a Tanker? Let's assume that they pick the same fights. Blasters can certainly finish a Yin arc in under 10 minutes, but that involves a specific sort of play choices. I wouldn't say a Tanker/Brute finishing a Yin arc in 34 minutes is a sign that those ATs are under-powered.

 

For example: one HC change that was made that did not focus on Tankers/Brutes was the allowing of T7/T8/T9 powers to be taken earlier in a build than was the case on Live. Prior to this change, some of my characters were finishing arcs like Theoden's SSA1 in 7 minutes, but others would take 12+. Same player, same difficulty, similar approach to building and playing characters. Now that all the characters have earlier access to the T7/T8/T9s, I don't have any character that takes much more than 7 minutes to finish that arc, and the previous speedy ones did not have their times noticeably improved.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

I agree with this argument in theory, so has it been demonstrated that the same Yin TF takes a Brute 24 minutes longer to finish than a Tanker? Let's assume that they pick the same fights. Blasters can certainly finish a Yin arc in under 10 minutes, but that involves a specific sort of play choices. I wouldn't say a Tanker/Brute finishing a Yin arc in 34 minutes is a sign that those ATs are under-powered.

 

For example: one HC change that was made that did not focus on Tankers/Brutes was the allowing of T7/T8/T9 powers to be taken earlier in a build than was the case on Live. Prior to this change, some of my characters were finishing arcs like Theoden's SSA1 in 7 minutes, but others would take 12+. Same player, same difficulty, similar approach to building and playing characters. Now that all the characters have earlier access to the T7/T8/T9s, I don't have any character that takes much more than 7 minutes to finish that arc, and the previous speedy ones did not have their times noticeably improved.

Yeah I would suggest only the 4 melee types would count.

 

Perhaps only scrappers brutes tankers.

 

There is some content Stalkers ate much faster at due to their superior stealth.

[Shin Magmus]

31 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Assuming competitive power sets.

 

Brutes shouldn't be slower at any content they can survive than Tankers.

 

But they shouldn't be faster than any content than Scrappers that the Scrapper can survive.

 

It's the second that seems to be tripping people up.  

Sure, that's how it should be.  I agree with you that Brutes should be faster at content they can survive than Tankers.  I mean since Brutes are squishier than Tankers, they more or less have to be able to clear content faster from higher DPS... otherwise they sit (where they are right now) behind in both offense AND defense.  Sadly, that's where we are right now.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Yeah I would suggest only the 4 melee types would count.

 

Perhaps only scrappers brutes tankers.

 

There is some content Stalkers ate much faster at due to their superior stealth.

 

I don't typically try to Solo the Penny Yin TF, but I did run some of my different non-brute ATs through it at +0x1, fighting only the necessary critters (when possible, see results). Stealth didn't really play into my runs, as I dashed past all critters I didn't need to fight.

 

(Spines/Bio) Stalker: 11m 56sec. Got lucky with the Archon Ascendant, but did have to put down some shapeshifted Warwolves. I probably could have just used primary and secondary powers.

 

(Inv/EM) Tanker:  12m 27sec. The Archon Ascendant took itself out of the fight, otherwise this might have been faster. The Stuns seamed to be pretty important, as was Taunt and Weaken Resolve.

 

(SJ/WP) Scrapper: 12m 50sec. The Archon Ascendant took me out of the fight AND took itself out of the fight. Clamor was hurting this character. One of the final necessary defeats ran away so I feel like there was a smidge of bad luck here.

 

(Mind/Poison) Controller: 15m 50 seconds. One death, one Shivan used for the AV fight. I hadn't made sure to have useful inspirations. This time is only within an order of magnitude of the others because of %damage... so let's not nerf %damage shall we. I did take a little extra time to defeat enemies before summoning Clamor, both to not have to worry about them and to get some extra insps. The Archon Ascendent was no problem 🙂

 

The times were short enough and there were so few defeats that nobody got a Catalyst, although the Scrapper got a PVP recipe.

 

Each of these characters needed to go out on a run (they all had Wentworth day jobs), each was built in a way that some folks would call "expensive".

[PeregrineFalcon]

Tankers get, hold, and survive aggro in order to protect the team. That's their identity. Scrappers are melee damage dealers. That's their identity. Stalkers are stealthy melee assassins. That's their identity.

 

Those are all specific roles that define their identities and, other than the fact that they're all melee characters, don't overlap. There's no confusion about who they are or what they do, and each of the AT's is the best there is at what they do. (Yes I know about IOs, yes I know about exceptions, etc, etc. Please don't try arguing the exception.)

 

So what is the specific role that defines a Brute's identity? And what specific thing can they do better than any other AT? If we can't answer those questions then what should their role be?

 

Don't we need to answer at least one of those questions before any discussion about numbers or changes or balance can happen?