Warburg Nuke as an Incarnate Judgement Power

[Alchemystic]

Pretty much as it says in the title.

 

Can we get a version of the Warburg Nuke as a permanent addition to our repertoire in the form of an Incarnate Judgement power? It could perhaps be refered to as 'Ballistic Judgement', and perhaps could deal a hybrid of Smashing and Fire damage like most explosives in game, with its secondary effects being split between a Resistance/Defense Debuff, and a powerful Repel effect.

[Techwright]

Not criticizing just curious:  Would that not negate any reason to go work through Warburg and secure a nuke?

[ZorkNemesis]

24 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Not criticizing just curious:  Would that not negate any reason to go work through Warburg and secure a nuke?

 

Maybe, but I feel like Nuclear Blast was already underpowered, even during live server days.  Any time I tried to use that it did so little that I felt I had wasted the half hour getting it to begin with.  CoD has it doing roughly 200 damage (Smash/Energy) at level 50, with a bonus 170 (Energy) to anything flagged Electronic.  This feels pretty pitiful for a one-time use, especially when most Blaster T9s beat it soundly with no real investment.  It would probably be a lot more effective with Judgement values instead of whatever it currently does.

 

And presumably the suggestion isn't tweaking Chemical or Bio Rockets as both of those are still really good.

 

Edited April 26 by ZorkNemesis

[megaericzero]

3 hours ago, Techwright said:

Not criticizing just curious:  Would that not negate any reason to go work through Warburg and secure a nuke?

While Alchemystic likens it to having a permanent Warburg nuke, I believe they're suggesting a regular judgment power with slightly different damage/debuff types for the cosmetic benefit of having a "nuke from orbit" animation, not a replacement/duplicate of the actual Warburg temporary powers. In which case, no, it wouldn't.

[Frozen Burn]

I like this idea of having a tech-based judgement.  We have elec, fire, ice, classic superhero ground punch (mighty), martial arts / natural (vorpal), and a negative (void).... there really isn't anything for a tech theme.  ....I'd also like to see a psionic judgement for all our mentalists out there.

[Alchemystic]

10 hours ago, Techwright said:

Not criticizing just curious:  Would that not negate any reason to go work through Warburg and secure a nuke?

 

I wouldn't say so. They may look similar, but they would be different enough to make sure neither are redundant.

Edited April 26 by Alchemystic

[BrandX]

11 hours ago, Techwright said:

Not criticizing just curious:  Would that not negate any reason to go work through Warburg and secure a nuke?

 

Not really.  Figure the OP was going for looks more than identical function.  The question would really come down what to make the two different effects.

 

Though, isn't it Core is additional Damage (DoT usually I believe if not always) and a secondary effect on the Radial.

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

I'm a big fan of the animation of the Warburg nukes. I'm a big fan of the Meteor power from the Seismic Blast powerset. I'm a big fan of the Ionic Judgment power. 

 

I'm not against another Judgement if it uses the Warburg nuke animation. As for what the power does or its effects - I'd have to see the numbers. 

[Frozen Burn]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm not against another Judgement if it uses the Warburg nuke animation. As for what the power does or its effects - I'd have to see the numbers. 

 

The numbers would be the same as all other judgments - the base value is normalized across all.  The Core sides will have minor variations due to the bonus damage.  The Radial Side will need to be determined what the extra effect is (control, debuff, etc).  But on the whole the damage output is the same per mob.

 

Really, the biggest difference numbers-wise is how many foes the judgement can affect.  Ion (both sides) and Vorpal Radial has the most at 40 peeps potentially affected.  Most others, the Core side affects 24 and Radial side affects 32 (except Cryo which is 32 peeps on both sides, and Vorpal Core is 30). 

 

So, it would be interesting to see what the devs would pick if this became an option.  I would think a missile/nuke strike could also be up to 40 peeps (both Core and Radial), but no telling how the devs originally came up with how many each could affect.

[General Idiot]

Orbital Judgement. Core is the Warburg nuke, Radial is Antimatter's giant space laser from the fight in his trial. Or just make them two seperate ones.

 

Also on the subject of new Judgement powers, one from the old live forums I always liked the name of: Fleet Judgement - an oversized version of Propel that throws an entire ship at something.

[PoptartsNinja]

Maybe the Well owns a starship?

 

The real question is: Why does the Well need a Starship?

[Alchemystic]

5 hours ago, Krimson said:

They sure sound neat but how are they Incarnates? 

 

Presumably the same way Longbow and Warworks robots are 🤷‍♂️

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Alchemystic said:

6 hours ago, Krimson said:

They sure sound neat but how are they Incarnates? 

 

Presumably the same way Longbow and Warworks robots are 🤷‍♂️

The difference between summoning echoes as Lores and using attacks as Judgements is the Lore pets summon echoes of enemies whereas the Judgement is an attack the character launches himself/herself/themselves/itself. So a Warburg nuke doesn't make sense as an incarnate power. A massive attack from the heavens like Statesman's, Tyrant's, and Reischman's lightning attacks work, and so calling down a beam of destruction could work, but a launched nuke doesn't fit.

[megaericzero]

I'm guessing Warburg nukes have a "type on your wrist" animation and that's what's contentious about the animation?

 

If so, it would seem assumable that we'd change the character's animation but keep the "death from above" particle effect that is the heart of Alch's suggestion.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

I'm guessing Warburg nukes have a "type on your wrist" animation and that's what's contentious about the animation?

 

If so, it would seem assumable that we'd change the character's animation but keep the "death from above" particle effect that is the heart of Alch's suggestion.

And the fact it is a launched missile. An attack from the sky itself isn't really a problem. After all, 2 remaining characters have such an ability. It's the calling down death from an orbiting nuke or similar that doesn't work as an incarnate power.

[megaericzero]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

And the fact it is a launched missile. An attack from the sky itself isn't really a problem. After all, 2 remaining characters have such an ability. It's the calling down death from an orbiting nuke or similar that doesn't work as an incarnate power.

It's been a very, very long time since I've seen the Warburg nuke animation(s). (I only really solo.)

 

Do they drop a visible missile or something? If so, I can't speak for Alchemystic's idea about the suggestion. I'd assumed the thread premise was just generic blast from above like the Seismic Blast tier 9.

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

It's been a very, very long time since I've seen the Warburg nuke animation(s). (I only really solo.)

 

Do they drop a visible missile or something? If so, I can't speak for Alchemystic's idea about the suggestion. I'd assumed the thread premise was just generic blast from above like the Seismic Blast tier 9.

I have 1 character with nukes and I'm disinclined to use them just to check. If there aren't any visible missiles as part of the animation and it isn't called something that says or implies it is a warhead launched from orbit? Then we're fine. It's basically the lightning attack Reischman and Tyrant use with different animations and effects. Like I said, an attack from the sky isn't the problem. A Judgement can take a wide variety of forms. (Edit: Though personally I think the attack would work better if it functioned like Rain of Arrows where the character projects something into the sky and the beam of death that descends is a bigger version of the bolt/beam/blast the character projected skyward.) (Edit again: Though an animation like Fist of Tyranny except with a death beam works just fine too. As do several other concepts.) It just makes no sense for a missile to be called in given the power originates from the Well and character.

Edited April 28 by Rudra

[Major_Decoy]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

The difference between summoning echoes as Lores and using attacks as Judgements is the Lore pets summon echoes of enemies whereas the Judgement is an attack the character launches himself/herself/themselves/itself. So a Warburg nuke doesn't make sense as an incarnate power. A massive attack from the heavens like Statesman's, Tyrant's, and Reischman's lightning attacks work, and so calling down a beam of destruction could work, but a launched nuke doesn't fit.

If a Longbow Echo can fire an rocket propelled grenade and do damage, I don't see why a Orbital Missile Platform Echo couldn't fire a missile.

[Rudra]

48 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

If a Longbow Echo can fire an rocket propelled grenade and do damage, I don't see why a Orbital Missile Platform Echo couldn't fire a missile.

Because the Longbow echo is a Longbow soldier firing that grenade. It is an echo of an entity. (Edit: And that entity gets to use the weapons it used previously.) The Warworks? Still entities. Robotic entities, but entities. Phantasms? Storm elementals? The other echoes we can summon as Lores? All are entities. They aren't space stations, because a space station is not an entity, it is a facility. They aren't missile launchers because missile launchers are not entities, they are operated vehicles or facilities. The Orbital Missile Platform is not an entity from the Well, it is an orbiting station that fires missiles. Why would the Well have an orbiting missile platform? That's like expecting to call forth an aircraft carrier from the Well.

Edited April 28 by Rudra

[Major_Decoy]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Because the Longbow echo is a Longbow soldier firing that grenade. It is an echo of an entity. (Edit: And that entity gets to use the weapons it used previously.) The Warworks? Still entities. Robotic entities, but entities. Phantasms? Storm elementals? The other echoes we can summon as Lores? All are entities. They aren't space stations, because a space station is not an entity, it is a facility. They aren't missile launchers because missile launchers are not entities, they are operated vehicles or facilities. The Orbital Missile Platform is not an entity from the Well, it is an orbiting station that fires missiles. Why would the Well have an orbiting missile platform? That's like expecting to call forth an aircraft carrier from the Well.

A facility is a subset of entity. The difference between a Warwork and an unmanned missile platform is a matter of scale, and if the explosion has a blast radius of sixty feet, it can be a really small missile. It'd have a smaller payload than a Davy Crockett.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

A facility is a subset of entity.

No, it isn't. Not even. A facility is a construction in which entities act or live.

 

6 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

The difference between a Warwork and an unmanned missile platform is a matter of scale,

The difference between a Warwork and an unmanned missile platform is the Warwork has autonomy in movement and function. It is capable of independent activity. That unmanned missile platform is not. It is reliant on an operator to order it fire it's payload.

[PoptartsNinja]

The incarnate powers don't need to have an incarnate origin. I've got enough characters who have earned all their incarnates the very hard way, by doing other content and never engaging with the well or anything else.

 

Having one or more tech-themed options would be fun. Even if lore had to be a consideration, what if your powers are technomancy, summoning, construction nanites, or hacking? Being empowered to super-hack and fire off a tactical warhead would strike me as being an Incarnate-worthy feat.

[Nerva]

I think the naysayers are vastly underselling the power of the Well.

Consider that the Well is powerful enough to mimic high technology and ancient magic with equal aplomb. It can flagrantly flip the bird to the laws of physics. It can mimic psionics. It can openly empower people with the capabilities of gods, mythological beings, and legendary artifacts.

The Well is capable of manifesting anything that can give a person power. If you do the Incarnate questline as a Tech character, the Artifact of the Well that serves as your link to it is a technology schematic. As a Natural character, it's a mirror. As a Magic character, it's a a solid object in the shape of a sigil or rune. Each origin's artifact is different.

When the Well empowered Statesman, he gained invulnerability, super strength, and electric powers. When it empowered Hero 1, it gave him the actual Excalibur. When it empowered Lord Recluse, aside from the spider limbs emerging from his back and some energy melee capabilities, he's not shown many overt powers of clearly-supernatural origin. And yet, he's such a potent leader that he has the entirety of Arachnos - an organization as powerful as any third-world nation (and given that it rules the Etoile Islands, it is one) - at his beck-and-call. Recluse has a combination of weaponry, technology, connections, and minions that when taken together match or even exceed any other Incarnate's powers. When it empowered Trapdoor, he gained teleportation, energy melee and energy blast, as well as refining his teleportation to the point he could be in multiple places at the same time. Stheno became a psionic snake-woman, and the mother of an entire race of snakepeople beneath Mercy Island.

In player hands, the powers of the Well can summon echoes of things from the past, present, and maybe even future. This ranges from ghosts to living light to Rikti to robot drones, from Rularuu's creations to agents of the Furies, to Tsoo gangers, to Nemesis's soldiers.

Nuclear weapons are among the most destructive creations of modern science, and have quite literally shaped history. They've been mythologized and had stories told about them, and nuclear technology and nuclear accidents have even been the origins of numerous superheroes. If anything would qualify as a legendary artifact of the modern age, it would be a nuclear weapon.

I really don't feel the Well of Furies is as limited as some people here think it is, when it comes to the breadth and depth of the abilities it can grant.

Edited April 28 by Nerva
Small addition, some corrections

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Nerva said:

When it empowered Hero 1, it gave him the actual Excalibur.

No, it didn't. Excalibur was the link to the Well Hero 1 found.

 

29 minutes ago, Nerva said:

When it empowered Lord Recluse, aside from the spider limbs emerging from his back and some energy melee capabilities, he's not shown many overt powers of clearly-supernatural origin. And yet, he's such a potent leader that he has the entirety of Arachnos - an organization as powerful as any third-world nation (and given that it rules the Etoile Islands, it is one) - at his beck-and-call. Recluse has a combination of weaponry, technology, connections, and minions that when taken together match or even exceed any other Incarnate's powers.

The Well didn't grant Recluse leadership abilities. Arachnos existed before Recluse. Recluse took over from its previous leader. By the same means the previous leader may have taken over the organization and the same way Recluse's replacement, your character in one arc, takes over. By killing the current leader after showing the organization they have the power to stand above others. Not something the Well gives.

 

32 minutes ago, Nerva said:

When it empowered Trapdoor, he gained teleportation, energy melee and energy blast, as well as refining his teleportation to the point he could be in multiple places at the same time.

Trapdoor isn't really connected to the Well. Not like the other incarnates. He was an attempt by Recluse to find ways of achieving greater power without having to go through the Well.

 

Just some things I felt needed to be corrected.

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

No, it isn't. Not even. A facility is a construction in which entities act or live.

An entity is something that exists. A facility is also something that exists, but not all entities are facilities, so facilities are subsets of entities.

 

The unmanned missile platform is autonomous enough to keep you in sight at all times and fire upon your command. The Robotic Drone lores do pretty much the same thing. At the size of the projectiles being fired and the level of technology available in City of Heroes, you could Missile Justice raining from space with something the size of Siege.