raid Once again asking for an instanced Hamidon Raid

[Mayaedits]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

P.S.: @Mayaedits get back to work

No u

 

[AmrasNotHere]

Very reasonable topic, as Raid content leaders are few and far between.  Please consider Laucis request so that we don't lose any more great content leaders. 

#reasonable #hashtag #moo #indom4eva

[JasperStone]

18 minutes ago, Mayaedits said:

I feel like people misunderstand what leading content like this is

This exactly. On Indom, a few years ago, our normal Riad leader did not show up, so I stepped in on the fly. No text macros, typing everything. Mind you, we still did the two-step process—so tracking mitos for everyone, tracking griefers, etc. Oh, and organizing the individual teams—lots of work.

 

This is why I am always impressed with how @Oklahoman and @Laucianna run it. Smooth

[Laucianna]

9 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Thank you for your good will. I also say this as nicely as possible - sharing my experience on Indomitable helps players who are experiencing the problem described in the original post. And it helps inform players of the benefits of playing on Indomitable. It is helpful and I am happy to share.

My toon, my SG, and my friends are all on Excelsior, it is unreasonable to expect me to leave all of that just to run an event on time. What you are suggesting is great advice for newer players but not a solution to the problem 🙂

 

[lemming]

1 minute ago, JasperStone said:

This exactly. On Indom, a few years ago, our normal Riad leader did not show up, so I stepped in on the fly. No text macros, typing everything. Mind you, we still did the two-step process—so tracking mitos for everyone, tracking griefers, etc. Oh, and organizing the individual teams—lots of work.

 

This is why I am always impressed with how @Oklahoman and @Laucianna run it. Smooth

Yep. The raid leaders do a lot of  heavy lifting that doesn't look like much until you try to do it yourself.    Most I've done is be one of the targeteers.

 

I've only been to the raids on Everlasting & Excelsior.  I do have some chars on the other servers, so may need to check my timing to tourist the other ones.

[Wispur]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

I have to disagree. There are already people forming up Hami raids. Players that show up in zone and participate despite not being in the league aren't hurting anyone, neither are they taking away from anyone.

There is so much to break down here, but we'll start with this. 
Yes they are, and yes they do.
They are hurting 49 other people in the zone by not contributing to the event being held, sometimes even causing the event to fail, and everyone losing out on the rewards.
I'm specifically referring to people who jump in, hit Hami then jump out, or who run around the map depositing Hami buds elsewhere, or who just have one attack on auto-attack while otherwise afk. There are a multitude of problems people can cause, which CAN negatively impact others.
 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

And I know at least one person that got blacklisted from the Hami raids I went to despite not doing anything I could tell that was wrong. She was even on the league and participating, and still got black listed. So at least being able to pop in the zone and follow along to get credit despite not being on the league isn't a bad thing in my book.

  I don't know who you're refering to, but I do know the people on Excelsior who run the Hamidon raids in the Abyss (I'm one of them), and to my knowledge, the number of people blacklisted can be counted on one hand, using one finger.
And even if the players attending don't know why, everyone who leads the raids knows why. 
And if there were instanced Raids, that person would be more than welcome to run their own. 
 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

They do. They kick the troublemakers from the team/league and depending on what was done, report them so the GMs can deal with the troublemaker.

 We've had people not in the league scatter Buds around the map.
We've had people who are *in* the league do things like attack Hamidon once then jump out, or who set their attacks to autofire and do nothing else to contribute.
Maybe the Hamidon buds thing is reportable if we can prove they were done intentionally, but the others? Those are just bad players.

It's not the GM's responsibility to police people at that level.  That's literally the responsibility of the Raid Leader.
And what we're asking for is a tool that will allow us to exactly that.  
 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

If a player is causing problems, record it, report it, and let the GMs handle it. 

Again, a lot of this problematic behavior is not the GM's responsibility.  
That is the Raid Leader's responsibility to fix.  If someone in the raid is not contributing, that's *my* problem to fix, not a GM's.
 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

"You're the raid leader, right? So the raid will form up where you are.

As Raid Leaders, we want to make sure *everyone* who wants to participate has a chance to do so.
And by participate, I mean contribute to the Raid's success.  We don't require incarnates, or even that they be level 50, but we do want them to help us fight.
That feels like an entirely reasonable request to me. 

That means instanced Hami.

That way we're not wasting spots on people who are trying to leech the rewards without contributing.
Or wasting potential spots on people who aren't even in the zone for Hami or are AFK.

If there are 6 leechers in the raid/zone, and we could remove them and have 6 *other* people who want to be there and contribute be able to join.
That's a HUGE win for our active Hamidon community. 

As others have said, this is no different than requesting that Task Forces be instanced.
We want people who participate and contribute. That's all. 💙

Edited May 7 by Wispur

[JasperStone]

24 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

And it helps inform players of the benefits of playing on Indomitable

I started on Indom when I first found out the game came back a few years ago.

 

So sure ... let's talk Indom

 

I dedicated myself to building my base, my four original mains, giving in to alt-ism, and developing a group of people to run with.

Things slowly dwindled, however.

 

Last year, I was part of a big project at work and was left with no game time for a few months.

I was so excited when the project ended and I could finally log in!

I logged a character into my base, made dinner, and did a few other things.

Came back about 30 minutes later ... to nothing in chat.

I mean nothing in all channels. 

No one responded to LFG

On a Friday at 8 p.m., 10 people were on Indom. The next few days were not any better. 

I never see any of my group online now, maybe they will return

Broke my heart to migrate to Excel ... but Indom left me

 

Your response, in truth, is server elitism and doesn't help solve the problem.

Yes, it seems to just be Excel, but if more players return, will it spread to other servers?

Maybe.

 

I want all the servers to be in yellow and red ... this is not the way

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

I started on Indom when I first found out the game came back a few years ago.

 

So sure ... let's talk Indom

 

I dedicated myself to building my base, my four original mains, giving in to alt-ism, and developing a group of people to run with.

Things slowly dwindled, however.

 

Last year, I was part of a big project at work and was left with no game time for a few months.

I was so excited when the project ended and I could finally log in!

I logged a character into my base, made dinner, and did a few other things.

Came back about 30 minutes later ... to nothing in chat.

I mean nothing in all channels. 

No one responded to LFG

On a Friday at 8 p.m., 10 people were on Indom. The next few days were not any better. 

I never see any of my group online now, maybe they will return

Broke my heart to migrate to Excel ... but Indom left me

 

Your response, in truth, is server elitism and doesn't help solve the problem.

Yes, it seems to just be Excel, but if more players return, will it spread to other servers?

Maybe.

 

I want all the servers to be in yellow and red ... this is not the way

Your experience is valid, thank you for sharing! I won't discount it in the slightest - but I expect the same in return when I share mine.

 

The only time I see 10 people on Indomitable is immediately after a server restart, otherwise it hovers above 100 at any given time and gets to the 250 players during peak hours. That is a consistent metric I've seen before and after the license announcement over the past four and a half years I've been on Indomitable. What this means in the context of this discussion is that there are less players than other servers, which is turn means less lag, no queueing, and plenty of opportunities for players to participate in a hamidon raid. This is why I shared that information in my previous posts. There are Hamidon raids conducted twice a week in the Abyss for players who want the merits or chance for the unique drop.

 

And to your last point about server elitism, this suggestion and feedback sub forum doesn't just belong to players who play on Excelsior, it belongs to all players. If I want to talk about the benefits of playing on Indomitable, I can do so. 

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, Laucianna said:

For instance @Rudra you mentioned about going in and hitting the mitos which isn't how I run my Hami raids so you would be hindering the raid by taking up a spot of someone following instructions in the league.

No, I wouldn't be. Because on the raids I've been on, that is what they do. So I'm following the league and doing what they do. You watch the Request channel and there are instructions for what to do on it. So you do what those instructions say and you are not hindering anything.

 

8 hours ago, Laucianna said:

League/team leads don't get to control the zone they are in, BUT they should be able to control the event they are running for everyone, as it's their job to make sure it is run successfully.

This part I agree with.

 

8 hours ago, Laucianna said:

The suggestion will benefit everyone except for people who: Want to join the event but solo

And this part is what concerns me.

 

6 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

 

You're against a proposal that will not effect you at all and want to toss more work at volunteer GMs?

 

Of course, you should report players that are misbehaving but there's also nothing wrong with players not associating with other players that are misbehaving.  That's what the rating system, the kick button, and the /ignore feature are for.

I don't have any problems with that. That is why I stayed out of this thread until now. The issue I have is with:

13 hours ago, Wispur said:

And if those troublemakers *really* want to do it, they can always start their own raid, and see who still wants to join them.
If they *actually* did nothing wrong, I'm sure it'll be no problem at all.

Because I know a person that to the best of my knowledge did nothing wrong but got blacklisted because of a personal matter between her and the league leader, you are asking them to try and make a league in competition with an established one that others will prefer to go to for being known, and treats players like they are automatically bad because they aren't in the league itself for the raid. So yes, I'm willing to toss more work at our volunteer GMs because it is part of the job description to look into these matters and deal with it. (Edit: And if it is hidden buds that are the problem, then have the buds added to the map. The raids I've been on, there was routinely a person sweeping the zone for buds. Alleviating that need or making their task simpler I can get behind.)

 

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Why are you against this suggestion then if it literally doesn’t affect you? This is as asinine as the beanbag folks were

I wasn't against it until that post I quoted. I didn't care if an instanced Hami was made. See my reasoning above.

 

 

Edited May 7 by Rudra

[Laucianna]

19 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

And to your last point about server elitism, this suggestion and feedback sub forum doesn't just belong to players who play on Excelsior, it belongs to all players. If I want to talk about the benefits of playing on Indomitable, I can do so.

That is fine, but this is a suggestion to fix an issue you do not have on indom 🙂 It is a suggestion to fix the issue on Excelsior and possibly Everlasting.

Edited May 7 by Laucianna

[JasperStone]

3 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Your experience is valid, thank you for sharing! I won't discount it in the slightest - but I expect the same in return when I share mine.

 

The only time I see 10 people on Indomitable is immediately after a server restart, otherwise it hovers above 100 at any given time and gets to the 250 players during peak hours. That is a consistent metric I've seen before and after the license announcement over the past four and a half years I've been on Indomitable. What this means in the context of this discussion is that there are less players than other servers, which is turn means less lag, no queueing, and plenty of opportunities for players to participate in a hamidon raid. This is why I shared that information in my previous posts. There are Hamidon raids conducted twice a week in the Abyss for players who want the merits or chance for the unique drop.

 

And to your last point about server elitism, this suggestion and feedback sub forum doesn't just belong to players who play on Excelsior, it belongs to all players. If I want to talk about the benefits of playing on Indomitable, I can do so. 

Absolutely.

You can absolutely talk about the benefits of playing on Indom.

I did not discount.

I can certainly say that you are not providing a true solution.

Because you are are not.

 

MSR on Indom (at least when I was there) was switched to the instance a number of times.

No complaints.

Maybe that should be removed. No real need for it.

 

I also mentioned that it would be nice to have this already in place when all servers are hopefully busy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rudra]

45 minutes ago, Wispur said:

We've had people who are *in* the league do things like attack Hamidon once then jump out, or who set their attacks to autofire and do nothing else to contribute.

And they still would be in an instanced Hami. If they are in the league already and doing that, then all you can really do is note them and not invite to them league next time. Or would you kick them out of the instanced Hami during the raid? (Edit: Actually, can you kick them out of the instanced raid and fill their slot during the raid?)

 

45 minutes ago, Wispur said:

It's not the GM's responsibility to police people at that level.  That's literally the responsibility of the Raid Leader.

Yes, the raid leader has a responsibility to monitor and deal with the raid, no argument on that. Actual bad actors popping in and trolling the raid though is something that can be reported. Cutting out soloists and saying "Hey, if you *actually* didn't do anything wrong, then go form your own league" is elitist and completely ignores why they refused to join the league in the 1st place. It says "Either properly join my league or make your own league, but either way, get your butt on a league."

 

45 minutes ago, Wispur said:

As Raid Leaders, we want to make sure *everyone* who wants to participate has a chance to do so.
And by participate, I mean contribute to the Raid's success.  We don't require incarnates, or even that they be level 50, but we do want them to help us fight.
That feels like an entirely reasonable request to me. 

I don't have a problem with that.

 

 

Edited May 7 by Rudra

[JasperStone]

4 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

That is fine, but this is a suggestion to fix an issue you do not have on indom 🙂 It is a suggestion to fix the issue on Excelsior and possibly Everlasting.

Exactly.

Due to the nature of my IRL job, I am all about future-proofing.

Good for when all servers are busy

[Laucianna]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No, I wouldn't be. Because on the raids I've been on, that is what they do. So I'm following the league and doing what they do. You watch the Request channel and there are instructions for what to do on it. So you do what those instructions say and you are not hindering anything.

 

This part I agree with.

 

And this part is what concerns me.

 

I don't have any problems with that. That is why I stayed out of this thread until now. The issue I have is with:

Because I know a person that to the best of my knowledge did nothing wrong but got blacklisted because of a personal matter between her and the league leader, you are asking them to try and make a league in competition with an established one that others will prefer to go to for being known, and treats players like they are automatically bad because they aren't in the league itself for the raid. So yes, I'm willing to toss more work at our volunteer GMs because it is part of the job description to look into these matters and deal with it. (Edit: And if it is hidden buds that are the problem, then have the buds added to the map. The raids I've been on, there was routinely a person sweeping the zone for buds. Alleviating that need or making their task simpler I can get behind.)

 

I wasn't against it until that post I quoted. I didn't care if an instanced Hami was made. See my reasoning above.

 

 

But you are not hearing any instructions, directions, or tips put into league chat.

The fact you have an issue with a league event not being able to be joined as a solo player is a bit odd, you wouldn't expect that from most other content would you? Imagine doing an incarnate trial and not being able to fill the league because some people wanted to join it solo 🙂

 

I can not speak to the nature of the person you know, but the only person banned from the league I run is due to him stalking and creeping on multiple girls (And yes he has been reported and we have been advised to put him on ignore, which we have but he still comes to the zone to reap the benefits of the league (Which he proudly announces each time))

[Laucianna]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And they still would be in an instanced Hami. If they are in the league already and doing that, then all you can really do is note them and not invite to them league next time. Or would you kick them out of the instanced Hami during the raid?

 

Yes, the raid leader has a responsibility to monitor and deal with the raid, no argument on that. Actual bad actors popping in and trolling the raid though is something that can be reported. Cutting out soloists and saying "Hey, if you *actually* didn't do anything wrong, then go form your own league" is elitist and completely ignores why they refused to join the league in the 1st place. It says "Either properly join my league or make your own league, but either way, get your butt on a league."

 

I don't have a problem with that.

 

 

I would 100% kick a problem player out of an event I run, instanced or not, the difference is on an instanced I can fill that slot with someone who isn't a problem, in the zone they are free to get the exact same benefits without having to do as much work (And I mean problem as in starting fights, ignore the instructions, trolling etc)

Bad actors get reported but there is only so much a volunteer team of GMs can do, if I can take a stress off of them by removing problem players from the event myself I would.

 

Again with the solo play, it is a league event, not a solo one.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

But you are not hearing any instructions, directions, or tips put into league chat.

League chat is so full of random comments and conversations, the raids I've been on do all their instructions on the Request channel so it stands out.

 

8 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

The fact you have an issue with a league event not being able to be joined as a solo player is a bit odd, you wouldn't expect that from most other content would you? Imagine doing an incarnate trial and not being able to fill the league because some people wanted to join it solo

I personally join the league on the rare occasions I join a Hami raid. Despite being a soloist. There are others that don't. Leagues can have up to 48 players. The zone can have up to 50. And I've been on raids completed with half leagues. So I'm still not seeing the problem with the random soloist being in zone, following along, and contributing to the raid without having to be on the league. (Edit: Though I am a bad actor. My MM is always put on a ranged team, but I tend to go with the melees instead. Because my pets are melee. Or my Crab Spider is put on the melee team and I go with the ranged instead. Because I'm more ranged.)

 

8 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

I can not speak to the nature of the person you know, but the only person banned from the league I run is due to him stalking and creeping on multiple girls (And yes he has been reported and we have been advised to put him on ignore, which we have but he still comes to the zone to reap the benefits of the league (Which he proudly announces each time))

Okay, I can see the desire for an instanced raid for that.

 

 

Edited May 7 by Rudra

[macskull]

32 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

I wasn't against it until that post I quoted. I didn't care if an instanced Hami was made. See my reasoning above.

Liking an idea and then later being opposed to that exact same idea because of why someone wants it is kinda yikes. At that point you’re no longer opposed to the idea on its merits but because you want things to continue to be difficult for that person.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

37 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

I wasn't against it until that post I quoted. I didn't care if an instanced Hami was made. See my reasoning above.

Liking an idea and then later being opposed to that exact same idea because of why someone wants it is kinda yikes. At that point you’re no longer opposed to the idea on its merits but because you want things to continue to be difficult for that person.

I didn't care about the idea. I wasn't for or against. And I even say so in the post you are quoting.

[Oklahoman]

34 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

That is fine, but this is a suggestion to fix an issue you do not have on indom 🙂 It is a suggestion to fix the issue on Excelsior and possibly Everlasting.

 

More to this point, I hope we never make development decisions based on the server of origin for the suggestion. If LFG was messed up on Indom but OK on the others, I would hope we would fix LFG.

[Oklahoman]

1 hour ago, JasperStone said:

This is why I am always impressed with how @Oklahoman and @Laucianna run it. Smooth

 

If only I were half as pretty...

[Wispur]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I didn't care about the idea. I wasn't for or against. And I even say so in the post you are quoting.

But even your reason for flipping and saying you don't like it is...
Well, I'll be honest, I don't understand it. 😅

One singular person, who may very well be a trouble maker, will have more difficulty finding a raid if they become instanced...
And that's a good reason to stop everyone else from having a dramatically improved experience?

And if your concern is that more people could suffer a similar fate?
Like I said, on Excelsior, for the Abyss runs, we have only one person blacklisted. And like Laucianna said, it was for VERY good reasons.
We *don't* just blacklist people willy nilly.  If we did, the community would turn on us pretty quickly, lol.
So, you can rest assured that won't be a problem. 💙

The goal after all, and the whole point of this suggestion, is to make sure that as many people as possible are able to participate, contribute, and have fun. 💙💙💙

Edited May 7 by Wispur

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Wispur said:

But even your reason for flipping and saying you don't like it is...
Well, I'll be honest, I don't understand it. 😅

It was your comment. I get the desire to cut out bad actors. I don't have a problem with actual bad actors being cut out. It was how you phrased it that got me going. The fact that it extends to soloists too, even if that wasn't your intent, by virtue of what you said.

 

Edit: Let me try it a different way. You have a player that does not join the league, but still follows along and does what the league does. You can't see said player on the map because said player is not on the league. You don't see said player attacking the monsters. And you only see said player when it is time to attack Hamidon. To many players, that person is a leech. However, despite not being on the league, the player is contributing. That player does not show until the attack on Hamidon because (s)he/they is hanging back for max range attacks, so the players on the league in the milieu don't see that player until they start during circles for the mitos. Yet, that player was there the entire time lending a hand. That player does not want to be on a league, but is still following along and helping out. And so others call that player a leech. This is not a hypothetical either. This actually happened on a Hami raid I was on. With several players calling for that person to go away, stop leeching, or if there was a way to ban that person. It took someone else who saw what that player was doing to point out that player was not leeching, but was following along as the raid leader had said to and contributing from outside the league. Do you see why your response gets a rise out of me now?

Edited May 7 by Rudra

[Laucianna]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It was your comment. I get the desire to cut out bad actors. I don't have a problem with actual bad actors being cut out. It was how you phrased it that got me going. The fact that it extends to soloists too, even if that wasn't your intent, by virtue of what you said.

With all due respect hun, It's not an event for soloists, same as trials or TFs aren't, easier things like MSR I can understand being solo in the bowl, but Hami needs the league to work together for it to work at all ❤️ And I do not hope the devs favour the solo experience over the league experience when it comes to league content

[Frozen Burn]

13 hours ago, Wispur said:

The thing is, we've been noticing a LOT of bad behavior lately, with very few options available to use to do anything about it.
Like today, we had someone who would literally jump in, hit Hami once, then jump back out.
We've had people AFKing, who have an AOE on autofire, but otherwise aren't contributing.
It's become a bit of a mess.

Remember, there are real people scheduling, organizing, and running these raids, these aren't something that happens automatically.
And they're doing it to help their fellow players have fun.  When they see a half dozen people taking advantage of that and making it harder for everyone else, while still getting the same rewards as the people actually putting in the work, that's very discouraging. 

 

I get this.  I understand it completely.  I've led things as well and experienced similar.  I know how hard people work to organize and run these events and it's greatly appreciated.  And yes, unfortunately, there are always those selfish a-holes who only care about themselves and want to take advantage of the situation. And yes, I know it sucks to work hard as a team/league and see these people doing practically nothing to get the same reward you are working hard for. 

 

But the other side to that is, if 6 or so people are just AFKing / leeching - do they cause a "Yellow Dawn"?  Do they cause the raid to fail?  I doubt it.  Did they prevent you from doing what you came to the Hive/Abyss to do (hunt GMs, then the Mitos, and then Hami)?  No, they did not.  Again, unless they grief in some way to cause a raid to fail - then they really have no impact on you or what you do.  Ignore them and be happy about your experience.

 

This is also part of the reason I sometimes hate being on the Hami/MSR leagues - all the b*tching, griping, complaining, and negativity that gets spouted in the league channel.  I don't care that these people are doing what they're doing - I'm there to do my part and have fun.  They can be selfish jerks if they want, but it's not going to impact me or my experience.  And I still don't think this is huge enough of an issue to make an instanced Hami raid.  

 

Additionally, I hate the Instanced MSR because it takes away the feeling that you're defending your city.  And an instanced Hami raid would ruin that feeling (for me) as well.  It's a great feeling traveling to the Hive/Abyss/RWZ to do these raids in their actual zones.... it makes you feel heroic in rushing to battlefield to defend your city against these great threats.  Rushing to smugglers ship or rushing to Eden and going through the gates of the hive - it's adds something to the experience.  Just porting from wherever you happen to stand into a magical land that looks like your city/zone ruins that immersion and experience.  

 

If it's implemented, ok, whatever.  I'll be disappointed, but it won't ruin my day, but it will make me less apt to join a Hami raid.  As I already rarely do the instanced MSRs.

 

And if it's really justice you want.... When you're defeating Hami and they are AFK'ing AOEs or jumping in for their few hits... Incan the league out and let Hami kill them.  Doing that right as the mitos respawn too.  Sure, you'd have to kill the mitos again.  but you could also do it again at 50% and 25% Hami health.  You could get a little justice/revenge that way, and just perhaps, they might learn a lesson.  😄  

 

[Gerswin]

The much much much bigger issue is the hour wait to start rather than the ability to exclude the nuisances.