For the love of boxing and kick

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, OverkillEngine said:

 

I mean, just compare the entry tax powers of the travel Pools to Fighting (and people are going to have to be adults and deal with them getting compared given they use the same opportunity cost mechanics - power selection slots):

Speed:
A) melee cone attack with limited utility
B) Self Buff that is almost universally applicable to all builds
C) Travel power!

Flight:
A) Melee attack with incredible utility thanks to two guaranteed secondary effects
B) Self flight toggle that also has great utility on a wide range of builds thanks to the perfect air control and cheap cost

C) Travel power!

 

Fighting:
A) Melee attack with unreliable utility, can be improved to still be unreliable
B) Melee attack with unreliable utility, can be improved to still be unreliable

(Note how I didn't even have to bring up their damage at all to show how off kilter the fighting pool attacks are. But since they are not allowed to compete via damage, what's left is competing via utility.)

So if there is something later on in these pools that one wants, two of them allow you to bypass selections that may not fit one's build, but with fighting, if you don't want or need a crappy melee attack, you have no choice but to waste a power slot on one. That's just grossly offensive design that should have been dumpstered decades ago.

 

 

The travel pools have always been a bit different from the other pools. More so after their actual travel power had its prerequisite unlocks removed. So I have to disagree with the comparison. The only thing that makes them comparable is that most travel pools include an attack power.

 

Edited May 19 by Rudra
Edited to correct "pols" to "pools".

[gameboy1234]

23 hours ago, Drachenfang said:

I agree with this sentiment a lot. There are so many power pool powers that never get picked like air superiority, jump kick, and flurry. If they were all good as attacks then that would really open the field for some new and nuanced builds with a lot more individual flavor than we have now.

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I used to take Air Superiority on my flying SS tankers quite a lot.  It's a decent attack, the -Fly is occasionally useful, it was needed for Fly (and I didn't care for Hover, far too slow back then), it filled-in an attack chain (often before more attacks were even available) and didn't suck at level 50.  Now we have so many choices that sort of tactic is largely unneeded.

 

Often it's adding constraints to the game that make these sort of things useful and interesting "finds" by players.  We don't have a lot of constraints any more, and I'm not really advocating that we should add them.  But it's good to think about these sorts of issues so that a broad range of ideas are considered.

 

One thing I do notice is that I often have way too many click powers by level 50.  So I wonder if something could be done there.  Make Boxing, Kick and Cross Punch better by being able to "add" them to an existing melee power somehow?  Like your T1 and T2 melee attacks?  So it removes a power from your tray (the Fighting Pool ones), and also gives those powers a boost by making them better.  I'm not sure, but some out of the box thinking needed here.

 

[megaericzero]

5 hours ago, Sancerre said:

regarding synergies or self buffs (or whatever semantics) -- they can be fun when designed well.  it is fun to look at powers interacting with each other in a meaningful way and build around that.  the joke is that these barely matter and the bigger problem is that even when fully collaborated, they dont even bring the powers up to an acceptable baseline.

  This is going to be wildly off-topic but...

Personally, I prefer synergies that happen by chance rather than by design (or, at least, seem to be). I hold the Oil Slick Arrow + Howling Twilight mass rez back when Hami was being redesigned as the pinnacle example of pure genius in this regard. (Feel free to respond "but muh immersion!") Or in other videogames/TCGs where a card buffs some vague trait and a random card from a different box set has that trait for thematic reasons so gets the buff. Or how cast iron is compatible with induction cooking even though the former is "old world" and the latter is "cutting edge." Even just picking thematically-unmatched power sets to compliment each other, like having double damage auras via Spines or double consume with Dark Melee.

 

--

 

Anyway, back on topic:

56 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The travel pools have always been a bit different from the other pools. More so after their actual travel power had its prerequisite unlocks removed. So I have to disagree with the comparison. The only thing that makes them comparable is that most travel pools include an attack power.

 

 

Even without travel pools, the others' prereqs feel actually good out-of-the-box.

Leadership: defense buff aura or damage buff aura that benefit the caster

Medicine: ally heal or clear mind (which I didn't even realize was also made into a potential enemy debuff?)

Presence: raise threat or lower threat - even if you just want Unrelenting, throwing out a random Pacify still has concrete utility compared to throwing out a random Boxing or Kick

Concealment (before being considered a travel pool with the change to Infiltration): worse invis but can attack or give someone else stealth

 

[tidge]

30 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Often it's adding constraints to the game that make these sort of things useful and interesting "finds" by players.  We don't have a lot of constraints any more, and I'm not really advocating that we should add them.  But it's good to think about these sorts of issues so that a broad range of ideas are considered.

 

 I like the cut of your jib.

[megaericzero]

37 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

One thing I do notice is that I often have way too many click powers by level 50.  So I wonder if something could be done there.  Make Boxing, Kick and Cross Punch better by being able to "add" them to an existing melee power somehow?  Like your T1 and T2 melee attacks?  So it removes a power from your tray (the Fighting Pool ones), and also gives those powers a boost by making them better.  I'm not sure, but some out of the box thinking needed here.

Just throwing out a random idea: maybe taking inspiration from Pokemon's Technician ability, which boosts the damage of attacks under a certain threshold? For instance, replacing Kick with an auto power that buffs the damage of melee attacks in the "minor" to "moderate" range. This would technically achieve what you're suggesting and also have some of that sweet accidental synergy with Parry/Divine Avalanche. Claws would become insane, though, so probably not; Bill Z Bubba would become [even more] unstoppable.

[Eiko-chan]

1 hour ago, OverkillEngine said:

 

I mean, just compare the entry tax powers of the travel Pools to Fighting (and people are going to have to be adults and deal with them getting compared given they use the same opportunity cost mechanics - power selection slots):

Actually, no, you need to be an adult and recognise that the Travel Power Pools aren't comparable to the other Pools. Fighting, Medicine, Leadership, and Presence are a different category of pools from the Travel Pools (due to the addition of Infiltration, Stealth is now basically a Travel Power Pool now.)^*

And if you want to do that comparison, Tactics and Maneuvers are gonna swap positions in the pool.

 

^*(And Experimentation, Force of Will, and Sorcery are a weird hybrid experiment of a new way to do Travel Powers.) 

[Sakura Tenshi]

I just want the following changes to fighting pool:

• Kick's animation to be changed to something less slow and awkward, more like thunderkick perhaps
• Boxing's animation to be changed to a one-two punch combo like pom-pom-less Energy Melee Barrage
• More synergy of the attack powers with other stuff like
  • Having Flurry decreases the recharge and endurance cost of Kick, Boxing, and cross punch further while Flurry gains an increasing chance to chain to nearby enemies with each fighting pool attack.
  • Jump Kick (also needing a new animation) grants a buff to movement speeds if it hits when you have Boxing and Kick and grants a short duration of immobilize and knockback protection (if you also have cross punch)
  • Air Superiority, in contrast, reduces enemy movement speeds when you have boxing and kick, and gains an chance to immobilize for a short time with cross punch.

I may or may not have a secret desire to play someone whose primary attack chain all comes from pool powers.

Edited May 19 by Sakura Tenshi

[tidge]

16 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Anyway, back on topic:

 

Even without travel pools, the others' prereqs feel actually good out-of-the-box.

 

Presence: raise threat or lower threat - even if you just want Unrelenting, throwing out a random Pacify still has concrete utility compared to throwing out a random Boxing or Kick

 

I use the Presence pool on many different characters; I have a hard disagree that it is "good out of the box":

• The first two powers (must pick at least one!) are pretty much diametrically opposed to each other in function
• The third possible power offers no real synergy wither either of the first two powers
• The first three powers are all single-target attacks that require ToHit rolls
• The first three powers offer some of the worst variety in enhancement set choices for any power types... including the almost complete lack of Accuracy for Threat pieces.

The final two powers are good (enough that I suffer through the above), but

• Invoke Panic only has synergy with intimidate IF both it and Intimidate are taken, and both hit the same target, dominated by the 60 second recharge time of Invoke Panic. In contrast the Fighting pool attacks get synergy just by taking them, not all of them have to be used. Cross Punch is IIRC on an 8 second recharge time!
• Unrelenting is a pretty sweet power, on par with Adrenal Booster or Unleash Potential, but their recharge times are significantly longer than something like Rune of Protection.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

The travel pools have always been a bit different from the other pools. More so after their actual travel power had its prerequisite unlocks removed. So I have to disagree with the comparison. The only thing that makes them comparable is that most travel pools include an attack power.

 

 

Even without travel pools, the others' prereqs feel actually good out-of-the-box.

Leadership: defense buff aura or damage buff aura that benefit the caster

Medicine: ally heal or clear mind (which I didn't even realize was also made into a potential enemy debuff?)

Presence: raise threat or lower threat - even if you just want Unrelenting, throwing out a random Pacify still has concrete utility compared to throwing out a random Boxing or Kick

Concealment (before being considered a travel pool with the change to Infiltration): worse invis but can attack or give someone else stealth

I'm wondering what forums we are on that we get such different reads. For the most part, I find all the power pools to be of use depending on what I am doing and what my character concept is, so please keep in mind that I agree with you that they 'feel good out the box' for the most part to me too, but Medicine and Presence? Those 2 sets specifically have been called for changes along the lines of the Fighting pool here, in that players are saying their first 2 powers are the suckage and need to be replaced or revamped, just like the Fighting pool in this thread.

 

Face it, as long as pool power attacks are not better than melee AT primary/secondary attacks, but players want Tough and/or Weave, there are going to always be calls for Boxing and Kick to be improved, replaced, or bypassed so players can further optimize their characters for a game where their characters are already wildly outperforming the game design.

 

(Edit: Though I would be fine with the calls for alternate animations for Boxing and Kick. Of course. And I would also be fine with Boxing and Kick's secondary effects getting buffed to a higher trigger chance than they already do if you have Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch.)

 

Edited May 19 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I'm wondering what forums we are on that we get such different reads. For the most part, I find all the power pools to be of use depending on what I am doing and what my character concept is, so please keep in mind that I agree with you that they 'feel good out the box' for the most part to me too, but Medicine and Presence? Those 2 sets specifically have been called for changes along the lines of the Fighting pool here, in that players are saying their first 2 powers are the suckage and need to be replaced or revamped, just like the Fighting pool in this thread.

It's just my perception but Fighting is a tier (haha) above what Medicine and Presence get - it's the one I see get threads made more often, and with more people who don't hang out in S&I going out of their way to post about it, with a lot more unanimous clamoring for replacement/removal of both powers or the entry cost, yet with big, sweeping changes that go in a million different directions. Compared to that, I see less threads about Medicine or Presence and usually just number tweaks - remove interrupt time (Medicine), increase potency, increase range, increase area of effect, increase accuracy/autohit (Pacify/Provoke), or shuffle some of the power tiers around.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Face it, as long as pool power attacks are not better than melee AT primary/secondary attacks, but players want Tough and/or Weave, there are going to always be calls for Boxing and Kick to be improved, replaced, or bypassed so players can further optimize their characters for a game where their characters are already wildly outperforming the game design.

There will always be calls for more power even if they got all of that. The issue is that melee attacks in pools, bar Air Superiority, are all pretty dead on arrival but any other pool has an alternative utility power to pick - Combat Jumping, Hasten, and Hover - while Boxing and Kick are redundant flavors of lousy. Don't get me wrong - the power tax should stay and I'll gladly pay it for Tough and Weave but, personally, Boxing and Kick are the only powers I will take yet actively remove from my tray. I'll put in a stray Pacify or Weaken Resolve during combat, or keep Grant Invisibility or Injection for teaming. Fighting Synergy is either terrible lip service or terrible sunk cost fallacy (or both) packaged as a buff.

 

--

 

That said, I don't feel strongly about it overall. As I mentioned, I'll gladly take the power tax if it means Tough and Weave, and throw Boxing or Kick into the trash. I do agree, though, with people that feel Boxing and Kick - specifically Boxing and Kick - are pure tax while other pools at least let you pick a neat little cantrip in their prereqs if not something you actually want.

[Biff Pow]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Face it, as long as pool power attacks are not better than melee AT primary/secondary attacks, but players want Tough and/or Weave, there are going to always be calls for Boxing and Kick to be improved, replaced, or bypassed so players can further optimize their characters for a game where their characters are already wildly outperforming the game design.

 

 

The Fighting Pool is redundant when you already have eighteen melee and defense powers to choose from. That's not who the Fighting Pool is for.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Biff Pow said:

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Face it, as long as pool power attacks are not better than melee AT primary/secondary attacks, but players want Tough and/or Weave, there are going to always be calls for Boxing and Kick to be improved, replaced, or bypassed so players can further optimize their characters for a game where their characters are already wildly outperforming the game design.

 

 

The Fighting Pool is redundant when you already have eighteen melee and defense powers to choose from. That's not who the Fighting Pool is for.

The Fighting pool is for whomever wants to take it. It is/was really meant for characters that lacked melee attacks and armors, but it is available to everyone to choose from. I'm against much of the requests for the Fighting pool on the Suggestions and Feedback forum. Including the OP of this thread. The point of my comment that you are quoting, is that until players can just take Tough and Weave with no prerequisites or Boxing and Kick as stand alone powers become premier melee attacks that put melee AT attacks to shame and so become highly desired powers in their own right, we are going to keep seeing requests like the OP. (Which I will continue to oppose every time.)

[OverkillEngine]

8 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

One thing I do notice is that I often have way too many click powers by level 50.  So I wonder if something could be done there.  Make Boxing, Kick and Cross Punch better by being able to "add" them to an existing melee power somehow?  Like your T1 and T2 melee attacks?  So it removes a power from your tray (the Fighting Pool ones), and also gives those powers a boost by making them better.  I'm not sure, but some out of the box thinking needed here.

Literally just one of the two entry tax powers for Fighting needs to not be a melee attack and 90% of the grossness of the design goes away. Because there's very few ways you can make a melee attack power a not wasted power slot if you have a build that does not need or want one.

 

7 hours ago, tidge said:

I use the Presence pool on many different characters; I have a hard disagree that it is "good out of the box":

 

Well, it does depend wildly on the character and powerset there. I have a Dark Dominator that has made at least some good use of the fear stacking and Unrelenting. But yeah I'd much rather have a single target Fear instead of a neutered form of Placate. Because the latter is close to a dead pick too. Hell, I'd even accept the run-terror form so as long as it at least stacked magnitude with other fears. But at least there is a choice of powers with *different* functions, instead of two powers for the same niche. So while it could use some attention/polish, it's not in an as offensive state.



Basically the problem with Fighting is not that it has pre-req powers. The problem is *what* the pre-req's are.

Edited May 20 by OverkillEngine

[WumpusRat]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I use the Presence pool on many different characters; I have a hard disagree that it is "good out of the box":

• The first two powers (must pick at least one!) are pretty much diametrically opposed to each other in function
• The third possible power offers no real synergy wither either of the first two powers
• The first three powers are all single-target attacks that require ToHit rolls
• The first three powers offer some of the worst variety in enhancement set choices for any power types... including the almost complete lack of Accuracy for Threat pieces.

The final two powers are good (enough that I suffer through the above), but

• Invoke Panic only has synergy with intimidate IF both it and Intimidate are taken, and both hit the same target, dominated by the 60 second recharge time of Invoke Panic. In contrast the Fighting pool attacks get synergy just by taking them, not all of them have to be used. Cross Punch is IIRC on an 8 second recharge time!
• Unrelenting is a pretty sweet power, on par with Adrenal Booster or Unleash Potential, but their recharge times are significantly longer than something like Rune of Protection.

 

I have a couple of characters that use the Presence pool.

On my shield/axe tanker, I skipped taking taunt from my main set and just picked it up in presence instead. Intimidate is mostly just a placeholder, and I just have an acc/end in it, and almost never use it. Unrelenting is a good emergency heal, and the long cooldown doesn't bother me since I have enough defense that I don't need to use it very often. 

On my StJ/willpower scrapper, I have the presence pool to kind of control my aggro to a degree. Pacify for dumping aggro, taunt for peeling things off squishies, and unrelenting for the healing and durability when my regen is being overwhelmed.

 

I'm not a huge fan of having to take powers just to unlock something that you actually want, but it's not an issue that really needs "fixing", imo.

[OverkillEngine]

  

8 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

Actually, no, you need to be an adult and recognise that the Travel Power Pools aren't comparable to the other Pools. Fighting, Medicine, Leadership, and Presence are a different category of pools from the Travel Pools (due to the addition of Infiltration, Stealth is now basically a Travel Power Pool now.)^*

And if you want to do that comparison, Tactics and Maneuvers are gonna swap positions in the pool.

 

^*(And Experimentation, Force of Will, and Sorcery are a weird hybrid experiment of a new way to do Travel Powers.) 

 

And my point about them competing via the same selection mechanism is still not refuted. And stamping one's feet and saying "but different *label*" doesn't count as such.

It's a simple calculation of "does this power/pool give access to a utility I want or need?" vs the power slot cost.

  

5 hours ago, megaericzero said:

There will always be calls for more power even if they got all of that. The issue is that melee attacks in pools, bar Air Superiority, are all pretty dead on arrival but any other pool has an alternative utility power to pick - Combat Jumping, Hasten, and Hover - while Boxing and Kick are redundant flavors of lousy. Don't get me wrong - the power tax should stay and I'll gladly pay it for Tough and Weave but, personally, Boxing and Kick are the only powers I will take yet actively remove from my tray. I'll put in a stray Pacify or Weaken Resolve during combat, or keep Grant Invisibility or Injection for teaming. Fighting Synergy is either terrible lip service or terrible sunk cost fallacy (or both) packaged as a buff.

 

This. So much this. Understandably Boxing and Kick are never going to be allowed to be competitive in terms of DPS with non-pool melee powers. That's not what I am asking for. If I don't want Air Sup or Flurry or Jump Kick, I can just pick Hasten or Hover or Combat Jumping which are completely valid picks in their own right and be done with it. We don't get that option with Fighting. It's Shit power A (with peanuts) or Shit power B (with walnuts).

Edits: Ugh, typos.

Edited May 20 by OverkillEngine

[tidge]

7 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

 

I have a couple of characters that use the Presence pool.

On my shield/axe tanker, I skipped taking taunt from my main set and just picked it up in presence instead.

 

I can understand the rationale, Provoke is inferior to Taunt, by several metrics. For some details, my gripes, and my own suggestions, see here

 

[Eiko-chan]

So, to slightly steer this topic elsewhere: Air Superiority does more damage than Boxing or Kick do, even with full synergy. This should not be so. The Fighting attacks should be doing at least as much damage as an attack from a Travel pool, and they should be doing significantly more damage after you compile all those synergy bonuses. 

[ThatGuyCDude]

On 5/19/2024 at 2:27 PM, OverkillEngine said:

 

I mean, just compare the entry tax powers of the travel Pools to Fighting (and people are going to have to be adults and deal with them getting compared given they use the same opportunity cost mechanics - power selection slots):

Speed:
A) melee cone attack with limited utility
B) Self Buff that is almost universally applicable to all builds
C) Travel power!

Actually, Flurry isn't even a cone attack.  It's a single-target with a long root animation, low accuracy, and a terrible chance to do a disorient that almost never works.

Having done a few pool-power character challenges, the intro pool attack powers are in a miserable state.  They aren't even comparable to a Tier 1 in damage: they fall just ahead of using Brawl for every attack... they don't even keep up with enemy regen and basically waste your time to use.  Their rider effects should try to trigger EVERY hit (like Air Superiority), and they should do at least as much damage as a character's Tier 1 power, if not between Tier 1 and Tier 2 because players are giving up one of those powers to take a pool attack.  Air Superiority is "almost" in the right spot for this... Brawl gets close if you take all three (Brawl/Kick/Cross Punch).

These attacks should be brought closer to the baseline of prestige attacks like Sands of Mu: bigger damage but longer cooldown so that you actually have to take several of them or sacrifice some enhancement slots to use them in a rotation.  The animations could be made better, too... like, Jump Kick ironically can't even be used while you're in the air (in a pool set that encourages you to jump around)!  Kick's animation is atrocious and awkward, unlike other kicking attack animations that are more engaging and flexible in a rotation... it's like a playground shin-kick.  Flurry should attempt several shorter DoTs so that it can try for procs multiple times in its dragged-out duration, or it should be allowed to hit in a cone like the other attacks with that same animation.

(1) Give them more damage, put them at least between Tier 1 and Tier 2, or preferably at the same level as the Prestige attacks Sands of Mu and Ghost Slaying Axe.  This goes for all pool-power intro attacks including the ranged ones.
(2) In conjunction with #1, INCREASE their cooldown time; there should be a reason to slot recharge or use recharge-reducing abilities with power pool attacks.
(3) INCREASE the rate of triggering their rider effects: they're low-magnitude anyway, they should be attempting a rider with every activation.
(4) Change their animations and their awkward restrictions: Jump Kick shouldn't have an 'on the ground' restriction, Flurry shouldn't have an animation root, Boxing and Kick shouldn't feel Super Strength slow.

Edited May 26 by ThatGuyCDude

[kelika2]

On 5/18/2024 at 8:21 PM, kelika2 said:

im really quoting myself to really reply to the people who used emotional icons

Now I am serious here.

A pool power (a term used by old devs to today) means... pool.  If we just had one large pool of powers to pick from this might be unique to all post-shutdown servers this might actually lead somewhere.  We can break these up to tiers, and the word tier can be replaced with anything.

 

Flurry, Jump Kick, Arcane Bolt, fly, etc can be tier1, and a requirement of tier2 is having a tier1

Tough, Tactics, and so on can be tier2

And having a tier2 can allow access to any tier3

 

I am sure there are Vigilantes, Rogues or Villains fueled by Vengeance but not much of a leader, or hates being a leader.

 

And before you get all judgemental, please take a moment to think about it.  More and more sets that are new tend to have 7-8 powers that are "good" or "required" to have.  Super Reflexes, Bio armor, blast/melee sets that do not build for perma hasten or always be unhealthily-dependent on incarnates.  Now think about when the devs buff an old set.  Or, at the very least, give them some freedom to buff old sets.

 

Pooling all the pool powers might sound overwhelming at first but thats every first timers introduction to everything.

[Ghost]

I say get rid of tough/weave and then all these discussions will end

😈

[MsSmart]

Mmm, I like the idea....

 

But what really matters, is what is the purpose of a power pool?

 

If it is to round your character so it fits a character concept better, or simply provides powers that the primary and secondary power pools did not provide, once more based on the players perception, then it stands to reason that there should be no pick order in a power pool, a player frankly should be able to pick from a list of powers to get their ideal build together.

 

The concept of a finishing power pool list, is not unheard of, in fact the old paper and dice game "Superworld" by Chaosium games, does exactly this, since its your character and your fit into the story.

 

In a way, it surprises me that City of Heroes with an aim for character immersion did not do this.

 

In the other side of the argument, having a huge list of powers to chose from, may result with players solely choosing "rounding" powers instead of main power abilities. So the idea of choosing from up to 4 pools and an an elite pool makes sense from this perspective. 

 

Perhaps a fair compromise, is for the powers in a pool to be treated as a list and not a progression.

 

Sue

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, MsSmart said:

Mmm, I like the idea....

 

But what really matters, is what is the purpose of a power pool?

 

If it is to round your character so it fits a character concept better, or simply provides powers that the primary and secondary power pools did not provide, once more based on the players perception, then it stands to reason that there should be no pick order in a power pool, a player frankly should be able to pick from a list of powers to get their ideal build together.

 

The concept of a finishing power pool list, is not unheard of, in fact the old paper and dice game "Superworld" by Chaosium games, does exactly this, since its your character and your fit into the story.

 

In a way, it surprises me that City of Heroes with an aim for character immersion did not do this.

 

In the other side of the argument, having a huge list of powers to chose from, may result with players solely choosing "rounding" powers instead of main power abilities. So the idea of choosing from up to 4 pools and an an elite pool makes sense from this perspective. 

 

Perhaps a fair compromise, is for the powers in a pool to be treated as a list and not a progression.

 

Sue

You can't compare what a pen and paper table top game does to a video game. Table top games have a game master that runs the game and tailors everything to the players. Video games do not. So they must be designed to be playable regardless of whether a player chooses to play solo or run with a team and regardless of what AT that player chooses and what powers from what power sets in whatever AT the player goes with. Which is a massive range of possibilities from the best to the worst, and the game has to be designed to run itself against that in a manner that doesn't drive players away. So let's say players can take any tier 1 pool power to unlock any tier 2 pool power to unlock any tier 3 pool power. What do we get?

 

Well, let's assume the player is making a Scrapper. You only need 4 powers to build an attack chain with, but we'll go with 5. Some armors you can skip multiple powers from, but we'll say the player takes 8 of them. So that is 13 of their 24 powers chosen for their build. That leaves 11 powers from pools. So we start with Hasten for the Holy Quad. That unlocks Tough. That unlocks literally everything else. So now we also grab Weave, Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, and Unrelenting. So now we only have 5 more powers to choose. Our END cost is pretty high and we still lack ranged attacks, so lets dip into the APPs. Let's grab Conserve Power from Energy Mastery. That unlocks Physical Perfection. Now all APP powers are unlocked. So we grab Targeting Drone and Moonbeam. Now we still have 1 more power we can choose. So we take Mace Beam for our 2nd snipe attack or we can take our choice of Summon Widow, Psionic Nexus, Summon Guardian, or Ice Elemental. Maybe we don't care about having a sniper though, so instead we take two pet summon powers. Because of course no one is ever going to do that and throw what little game balance we have left out the window.

 

(Edit: And before anyone says "But what about travel powers?", I didn't forget them. They buy those at the START vendor.)

Edited May 26 by Rudra

[ThatGuyCDude]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

(Edit: And before anyone says "But what about travel powers?", I didn't forget them. They buy those at the START vendor.)

And people buy Sands of Mu at the START vendor too, an ability that hits multiple targets and does superior damage to Boxing, Kick, and even their Tier 1 attacks.

Intro power pool attacks are traps.  They even have descriptions like "Good if you need another attack power", but they're not.  Yes, they are a prerequisite to get to the higher-tier powers.  No, having a prerequisite be useless compared to another option is not acceptable.

Let's look at Spring Attack.  It's a T3 power pool power and it's actually a pretty good PBAoE attack... it does damage comparable to a T2 or T3 in the regular Melee power sets and it has a neat mechanic (teleport to location, or teleport to target if you macro it).  How is this power able to be so interesting and be in a pool at the same time?  Because it has a long cooldown.  Even though it's a great attack, it's never competing with the character's primary clicks because it takes a long time to recharge: even with capped Recharge boosts it still takes about thirty seconds to refresh.

THAT'S what Power Pool attacks need.  They can be good if players have to wait to use them... they can be good if they can't be spammed immediately after they've finished animating.  If Kick were a sweep-kick like Dragon's Tail from the Martial Combat set--with a knockdown based solely on hit rate, rather than a 15% lead-in roll--and a longer cooldown that maybe STARTS at 15 seconds instead of 3, it would be a legitimate choice over Boxing even if its damage stayed at or below T1.  Not asking for nukes here... just asking for the power pool attacks to be better than enhancing Brawl.

[Rudra]

39 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

And people buy Sands of Mu at the START vendor too, an ability that hits multiple targets and does superior damage to Boxing, Kick, and even their Tier 1 attacks.

You are comparing a prestige power that back on Live you had to play the game for 7 years to get to pool power attacks that everyone got access to immediately. Yes, on HC we don't have to wait years of account time to get the prestige powers, we can just get them for free from the START vendor, but that is still a false comparison. Prestige powers serve a different purpose than pool powers despite their overlap. Prestige powers also cannot be enhanced while pool powers can be. (Edit: And prestige powers ignore your global bonuses whereas pool powers do not.)

Edited May 27 by Rudra

[Ghost]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

You can't compare what a pen and paper table top game does to a video game. Table top games have a game master that runs the game and tailors everything to the players. Video games do not. So they must be designed to be playable regardless of whether a player chooses to play solo or run with a team and regardless of what AT that player chooses and what powers from what power sets in whatever AT the player goes with. Which is a massive range of possibilities from the best to the worst, and the game has to be designed to run itself against that in a manner that doesn't drive players away. So let's say players can take any tier 1 pool power to unlock any tier 2 pool power to unlock any tier 3 pool power. What do we get?

 

Well, let's assume the player is making a Scrapper. You only need 4 powers to build an attack chain with, but we'll go with 5. Some armors you can skip multiple powers from, but we'll say the player takes 8 of them. So that is 13 of their 24 powers chosen for their build. That leaves 11 powers from pools. So we start with Hasten for the Holy Quad. That unlocks Tough. That unlocks literally everything else. So now we also grab Weave, Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, and Unrelenting. So now we only have 5 more powers to choose. Our END cost is pretty high and we still lack ranged attacks, so lets dip into the APPs. Let's grab Conserve Power from Energy Mastery. That unlocks Physical Perfection. Now all APP powers are unlocked. So we grab Targeting Drone and Moonbeam. Now we still have 1 more power we can choose. So we take Mace Beam for our 2nd snipe attack or we can take our choice of Summon Widow, Psionic Nexus, Summon Guardian, or Ice Elemental. Maybe we don't care about having a sniper though, so instead we take two pet summon powers. Because of course no one is ever going to do that and throw what little game balance we have left out the window.

 

(Edit: And before anyone says "But what about travel powers?", I didn't forget them. They buy those at the START vendor.)

You know what comes after all those wonderful powers have been taken???

 

wait for it

 

 

More Slots!!!!!

Its not fair!!!  
We have all these powers and not enough slots!!!