How do we fail new players?

[tidge]

44 minutes ago, Neiska said:

But I think I am just going to do us both a favor and put you on the ignore list. Since you like to obfuscate, even when something is repeated to you, then I don't think there is much we have to say to one another, so I am going to just save us both the trouble. 

 

If there answer was "it is technically possible to split the HC servers this way" would you be advocating that they actually be segregated?

[Apogee]

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Also, 

 

HAIL SATAN!

 

On a more important and off topic note, how is the new set?  Are you done building Barad-Dur?

 

[battlewraith]

6 hours ago, Apogee said:

 

On a more important and off topic note, how is the new set?  Are you done building Barad-Dur?

 

 

It just came in the mail a few days ago. We have Orthanc and my wife has been waiting like 10 years to get a Barad-Dur (wtf Lego?), so she's going to have the building be a deliberately slow process. The only thing assembled so far is the fell beast.

[Judasace]

If you expect every new player to play missions from 1 - 50, 90% of them will quit between 35 and 50 because the XP and available mission content are not appropriately balanced. If it weren't for PLing, TF's and MS raids most players wouldn't get past 40 because it's an absolute slog.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Judasace said:

If you expect every new player to play missions from 1 - 50, 90% of them will quit between 35 and 50 because the XP and available mission content are not appropriately balanced. If it weren't for PLing, TF's and MS raids most players wouldn't get past 40 because it's an absolute slog.

 

I'm not a new player, but one piece of advice I can offer for the HC era is to delay picking up patrol XP from exploration badges, and to start thinking about doing TFs/SF until your character gets to these doldrum periods. In combination, those two can increase the flow of XP even without 2XP. Exploration now becomes Patrol XP... I used to rush exploration badges, now I only get them when my patrol XP is out.

 

Again as an experience player: upon reaching level 40 is IMO a good time to work on both/either blue/red side accolades. For Blue, 40-50 is when the Tina/Marie arcs are available. For Red, this is a good time to do Patrons... and if the Mayhem (or Safeguards) are done to get Life Insurance it becomes a perfect time to get the debt badge rather trivially.

 

I can't completely disagree about the sloggish nature of missions (especially Blue side) in this range. But there are a couple of other tricks I'll use besides turning up spawn sizes on certain missions for characters that can handle it. By level 40 just about every character should be able to use Ouroboros to do lower level missions, because powers should have now been slotted. I'll often do the Mercy Island missions (because merits!) or the Faultline missions when looking for an alternative to the never-ending arcs in these level ranges.

[High_Beam]

49 minutes ago, tidge said:

delay picking up patrol XP from exploration badges, and to start thinking about doing TFs/SF until your character gets to these doldrum periods. In combination, those two can increase the flow of XP even without 2XP.

This.  Also, save the "Experienced" freebie XP boots until this time.  You get to 30 in the blink of an aye really, even with part-time play.

[Ukase]

20 hours ago, tidge said:

if the Mayhem (or Safeguards) are done to get Life Insurance it becomes a perfect time to get the debt badge rather trivially.

Can you elaborate a smidge? I thought Life Insurance reduced the debt you acquire when defeated. I would think this is the last thing you'd want when you're heading off to Monster Island to sacrifice yourself to the GMs as many times as it takes to get the Unbroken Spirt/Undaunted badge. 
Patrol XP is generally what I use to gobble up the debt ahead of time. 

You have me confused - and I'll confess, other than for badges, a typically avoid mayhem/safeguard because there are no merits involved. The Steel Canyon temp is nice, an extra ATT for a few days. And having extra HP or recovery, always nice. But debt protection? I don't see the utility there. 

[Excraft]

23 hours ago, Judasace said:

If you expect every new player to play missions from 1 - 50, 90% of them will quit between 35 and 50

 

If not before.  There are a great many people here who for the life of them can't understand how may others consider the "right/correct" leveling process a boring, repetitive slog.

[Pleonast]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Funny that's how we all used to play and we grew to love the game regardless.

That’s survivor bias. There’s more many people who played and gave up. 
 

 

[ZemX]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:30 AM, Judasace said:

If you expect every new player to play missions from 1 - 50,

 

Nobody seriously expects this.  The only advice I'd give a new player is to actively play the game at least for a while before plopping their ass down at a door in a farm and letting someone else carry them to 50.  That doesn't have to be missions exclusively.  It doesn't even have to be all the way from 1 to 50.  It just has to be something that requires you to actually play your character, learn your powers, and learn how the game works... none of which happens when you are door sitting.

 

I don't know why this thread is such a mess of strawman bullshit arguments.  It's really a very simple question: Do you think it's in a new player's best interests to be carried to 50 on their first toon and THEN try to figure out the game -or- should they try actively playing first to see if they like it and maybe learn something on their own first?

 

And to be clear, this is not about forcing anything on anybody.  None of us CAN do that, so we can drop that bullshit line of argumentation too.   This is about what you'd suggest to a new player.  They can always do what they want and ultimately they WILL do what they want.  But if they asked you for advice... what would you tell them?

[battlewraith]

24 minutes ago, ZemX said:

I don't know why this thread is such a mess of strawman bullshit arguments.  It's really a very simple question: Do you think it's in a new player's best interests to be carried to 50 on their first toon and THEN try to figure out the game -or- should they try actively playing first to see if they like it and maybe learn something on their own first?

 

I suspect you can't relate some of the perspectives in this thread because you assume some kind of blank slate player that somehow hears about this game and just picks it up with no preconceptions. 

 

I don't. I think people like that do start the game but are brought in by friends or family--so they have some sort of mentorship/help. My image of somebody seeking out and starting a 20 year old MMO on their own is that this person is a gamer, has played a variety of games, and most likely understand what drives MMOs-- grinding resources. That person might know, before they even roll a character, they they want a maxed out character that will be able to efficiently grind resources for other characters/objectives/etc. It's in that person's best interests to cut out the grind and let them go straight to what they actually want to do. I think the "learn after you're 50" part would be pretty trivial. At that point, they may or may not be interested in the 1-50 leveling content.

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Ukase said:

Can you elaborate a smidge? I thought Life Insurance reduced the debt you acquire when defeated. I would think this is the last thing you'd want when you're heading off to Monster Island to sacrifice yourself to the GMs as many times as it takes to get the Unbroken Spirt/Undaunted badge. 
Patrol XP is generally what I use to gobble up the debt ahead of time.

 

My experience has been that Life Insurance is an insta-debt payoff. At Level 40, the amount of debt occurred with each defeat is significant enough that it doesn't take many defeats to get Unbroken Spirit/Undaunted. I used to take level 40s to Dark Astoria to get defeated, but by level 40 some of my characters can survive encounters longer than I'd like. The PI Giant Monsters are more helpful.

 

This is often the last badge needed for High Pain Threshold, unless I have been lazy about getting exploration badges.

[ZemX]

25 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I suspect you can't relate some of the perspectives in this thread because you assume some kind of blank slate player that somehow hears about this game and just picks it up with no preconceptions. 

 

Wrong.  But thanks for illustrating how this thread became such a mess of strawman arguments by... immediately employing another strawman.

[battlewraith]

5 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Wrong.  But thanks for illustrating how this thread became such a mess of strawman arguments by... immediately employing another strawman.

 

It's not an argument, just an impression based on the assumptions you seemed to be feeding into that post.  The simple answer to your question-- "is it in the best interests of new players to do X" -- is that it depends on the player. You want to picture people that need your wisdom--knock yourself out.

[Neiska]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Nobody seriously expects this.  The only advice I'd give a new player is to actively play the game at least for a while before plopping their ass down at a door in a farm and letting someone else carry them to 50.  That doesn't have to be missions exclusively.  It doesn't even have to be all the way from 1 to 50.  It just has to be something that requires you to actually play your character, learn your powers, and learn how the game works... none of which happens when you are door sitting.

 

I don't know why this thread is such a mess of strawman bullshit arguments.  It's really a very simple question: Do you think it's in a new player's best interests to be carried to 50 on their first toon and THEN try to figure out the game -or- should they try actively playing first to see if they like it and maybe learn something on their own first?

 

And to be clear, this is not about forcing anything on anybody.  None of us CAN do that, so we can drop that bullshit line of argumentation too.   This is about what you'd suggest to a new player.  They can always do what they want and ultimately they WILL do what they want.  But if they asked you for advice... what would you tell them?

 

1. Nobody seriously expects this.

- I gently disagree, as there are voices in this very forum that advocate for exactly that. In this very thread in fact. I would point them out by name, but I believe that violates policy.

 

2. Do you think it's in a new player's best interests to be carried to 50 on their first toon and THEN try to figure out the game -or- should they try actively playing first to see if they like it and maybe learn something on their own first?

- I find your choice of wording interesting here, as it is a little bias. It is biased, because it infers that you (not you personally, but the rhetorical you) can speak on behalf of all new players and what their best interests even are. When the odds are just as many new players might choose to do AE, as not do AE. This question is presuming that the questioner knows for a fact what all new players would choose beforehand, what they would want, or what is in their best interests.

 

A fairer question would be "Do you think it's okay to decide for other players on how to play or what correct play is?" And to that, I say No. Absolutely not. In no context in any game anywhere, should other players decide for other players what they can or cannot do. Only a developer or staff member, should they make such decisions on behalf of not just "new" players, but all players in general.

 

3.  This is about what you'd suggest to a new player.  They can always do what they want and ultimately they WILL do what they want.  But if they asked you for advice... what would you tell them?

- I would tell them the various ways to play, and the merits and drawbacks of both, and leave the choice ultimately up to them. Thats what giving honest choice and putting their "best interests" first is.

 

This entire thread is based on the presumption that a new player who is power leveled to 50 will grow bored, and quit the game. When there is nothing to substantiate such a claim.

 

Taking myself as an example -

I leveled 3 different characters, all to high 20s mid 30s, and got frustrated at the pace and sense of "lack of reward" for my time. A friend then power leveled me to 50, explained MIDs, and all the intricates of making a build. And I found that far more enjoyable than doing things like contact missions. And so I began to farm. And nearly 5 years later, I am still here. So is she for that matter. The funny thing? My friends list is full of people who were "purists" who no longer play. I have not seen some of them in 2 or 3 years in fact. But all my farming friends? Still here. Still active. Still farming. I hope Xknight will forgive me for pointing this out but, even the farming discord is more active than the official HC discord.

 

Now I am not claiming that farming is more popular or should be pushed upon new people. I am only using myself as an example of why such reasons as "they will grow bored and quit!" are simply untrue. And no matter how you try to rationalize it, or excuse it, or obfuscate it, claiming to know what is in another players "best interests" is wrong, no matter how you try to slice it.

[ZemX]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

It's not an argument, just an impression based on the assumptions you seemed to be feeding into that post.  The simple answer to your question-- "is it in the best interests of new players to do X" -- is that it depends on the player. You want to picture people that need your wisdom--knock yourself out.

 

I disagree that it depends all that much on the player.   Starting out by leveling a character organically teaches you all the basics of the game which will come in handy later regardless of whether you intend to play on missions and TF teams or just exclusively endgame/incarnate trials.  And you don't have to stick with it all the way to 50, like I said.  You decide when you think you have enough of a handle on the game if you want to just skip to 50 in a farm.  But you're doing so with a better idea now what the game is like.  You're not gonna be the guy the OP mentioned who PL'd to 50 and then had no idea what to do next.

[Neiska]

An analogy, if you will -

 

"Here we have Coke and Pepsi. We can't let new people pick Coke, even if that's what they would want, because they don't know about Pepsi. And we cannot let them choose Coke for themselves, because we can speak self-assuredly that we know absolutely what is in their own best interests. We know for absolute certain that they should and would all pick Pepsi, without exception. We need to remove Coke from the menu immediately."

 

Edited June 10 by Neiska

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

1. Nobody seriously expects this.

- I gently disagree, as there are voices in this very forum that advocate for exactly that. In this very thread in fact. I would point them out by name, but I believe that violates policy.

 

Quoting and responding to people in a thread is not against policy.  It's called... "discussion".  If people are actually saying this then you should be able to quote them.  Can you?  Because you just, again, wrote another post where you get to tell us all what we think and then why we're all wrong.  It's easy to do, I guess.  Much easier than actually responding to things people are actually writing.

 

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

- I find your choice of wording interesting here, as it is a little bias. It is biased, because it infers that you (not you personally, but the rhetorical you) can speak on behalf of all new players and what their best interests even are. When the odds are just as many new players might choose to do AE, as not do AE. This question is presuming that the questioner knows for a fact what all new players would choose beforehand, what they would want, or what is in their best interests.

 

It says nothing of the sort.  I put it very simply, IF someone asks me for advice on how to get started playing this game or, as the person in the OP does, "What do I do next?" then this is what I tell them. 

 

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

I would tell them the various ways to play, and the merits and drawbacks of both, and leave the choice ultimately up to them. Thats what giving honest choice and putting their "best interests" first is.

 

It's not up to you to "leave the choice up to them".  It's already up to them.   Again, you keep wanting to pretend that people in this thread are attempting to do otherwise.  They are not.  They just have different advice they would give to new players on how to get started playing this game.   Anybody I tell to level up from one on their very first toon at least as far as needed to become familiar with this game can always say, "Gosh, that sounds boring.  This guy over here can make me 50 inside of an hour!"   Then knock yourself out, chief!  But don't come to me asking how to get to Peregrine Island after that to join some team.  Don't complain about not being able to keep up with that team moving through the mission.    Don't, in fact, complain about anything you could have learned for yourself quite simply.  You followed someone else's advice.  Ask them.  Choice was yours... and so are the consequences.

Edited June 10 by ZemX

[Neiska]

8 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Quoting and responding to people in a thread is not against policy.  It's called... "discussion".  If people are actually saying this then you should be able to quote them.  Can you?  Because you just, again, wrote another post where you get to tell us all what we think and then why we're all wrong.  It's easy to do, I guess.  Much easier than actually responding to things people are actually writing.

 

 

It says nothing of the sort.  I put it very simply, IF someone asks me for advice on how to get started playing this game or, as the person in the OP does, "What do I do next?" then this is what I tell them. 

 

 

It's not up to you to "leave the choice up to them".  It's already up to them.   Again, you keep wanting to pretend that people in this thread are attempting to do otherwise.  They are not.  They just have different advice they would give to new players on how to get started playing this game.   Anybody I tell to level up from one on their very first toon at least as far as needed to become familiar with this game can always say, "Gosh, that sounds boring.  This guy over here can make me 50 inside of an hour!"   Then knock yourself out, chief!  But don't come to me asking how to get to Peregrine Island after that to join some team.  Don't complain about not being able to keep up with that team moving through the mission.    Don't, in fact, complain about anything you could have learned for yourself quite simply.  You followed someone else's advice.  Ask them.  Choice was yours... and so are the consequences.

 

1. Sure, I have. Elsewhere. To the OP in fact. The very first post in this thread, which I responded to. Many of which are already quoted, not just in this post, but elsewhere. I see no reason to send them several pings and bring up old arguments, many of which have already been closed.

 

2. Yes, it does. It presumes that you know the new players best interests. Which you do not.

 

3. I am not pretending to do anything. Even on the previous page, people are saying to do otherwise. I do agree that the consequence of those choices are entirely on that player. But let's not pretend that people are not pushing the narrative of "don't power level new people." Because that quite literally is the point of this topic, and its intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. This thread has not been a "let people choose" argument, it has been a "don't power level new players, because WE know what's best for them" argument. If you think otherwise, then perhaps you have not been following the thread or reading all the other previous posts.

[battlewraith]

49 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Then knock yourself out, chief!  But don't come to me asking how to get to Peregrine Island after that to join some team.  Don't complain about not being able to keep up with that team moving through the mission.    Don't, in fact, complain about anything you could have learned for yourself quite simply.  You followed someone else's advice.  Ask them.  Choice was yours... and so are the consequences.

 

Yes, the consequences. The utter ruin that will befall someone if they stray from the honored path. The fact that people like you will turn their back on them...

 

Oh well? If someone asks me a question, I just answer it. If a newly pled 50 asked me what to do, I'd probably ask them what they wanted to do and give them some tips. If someone on a pickup team dies, i rezz them. If they keep getting killed, I maybe keep an eye on them and try to stop that from happening. Probably the worst case scenario is that they would friend me and then later I would forget who they were or something.

Edited June 10 by battlewraith

[ZemX]

17 minutes ago, Neiska said:

1. Sure, I have. Elsewhere. To the OP in fact.

 

Nobody in this thread has said, even once, that they want to "force" anyone to play their way.  Prove me wrong by quoting the person who has done so. Maybe I just missed it.  The thread HAS gotten quite long, after all. 

 

20 minutes ago, Neiska said:

2. Yes, it does. It presumes that you know the new players best interests. Which you do not.

 

You are making this out to be absurdly more difficult and more important a decision than it really is.  This is a freakin' video game.  Not career advice.  "What's the best way to learn a new video game?" isn't a terribly weighty life-altering decision to make.   My advice is to learn the game from level one rather than from level 50.  Why?  Because nobody expects you to already know your way around at level one as they do at level 50.  You have fewer powers to figure out and more time to figure them out.  It's just simpler.   And I'm not going around TELLING people they have to do this.  It is what I'd say if I'm asked and they are free to do whatever they want with my advice including ignoring it completely.  

 

36 minutes ago, Neiska said:

But let's not pretend that people are not pushing the narrative of "don't power level new people." Because that quite literally is the point of this topic, and its intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise

 

It's advice on how to play a game.  Calling it "pushing a narrative" is just absurd.  Do you write angry letters to game guide writers telling them to stop giving advice on how to play games?

[ZemX]

23 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Yes, the consequences. The utter ruin that will befall someone if they stray from the honored path.

 

Just can't stop making shit up, can you?  I didn't call it an "honored path."  It's nothing more or less than MY advice.  Plain and simple.   If someone chooses to ignore it, how is it unreasonable of me to say that person who ignored my advice shouldn't come back to me with their complaints?  Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[Neiska]

On 6/4/2024 at 9:14 PM, UltraAlt said:

 

Farming and powerleveling are horrible for new players.

Welcome to the AE babies that think that the game isn't worth playing until the end-game because they have run into so many MMOs where there is no one to game with at lower levels.  (many times it turns out that way here as well, unfortunately ... because there is more content during leveling than there is in the end-game unless you take the level-down hit so it isn't like you are playing it at 50 at that point anyway)

 

Yeah. 

I think that is pretty sad myself.

They are stealing a new player's enjoyment of the game.

 

Most of those players are the ones that ONLY play level 50's, and can't understand why anyone would enjoy the lower levels.

 

I have a great disdain for farmers and the corruption they caused to the AE.

 

 

@ZemX - I don't know how to do multiple quotes form different people int he same post, but here is one. Boldfaced and snipped their post for clarity.

 

I would call this "forceful." Or at least one attempt in many to try and have AE removed entirely.

 

Even the OP post (copy/pasted), I bolded the parts in question. - 

 

Over the recent long day weekend, I noticed a large uptick in new players. I answered as many questions as I could in /help and was as welcoming as I could be. However, I noticed some oddities that made me think we, as a community, are failing our newest members. We're doing things that harm them and NOT doing things that would help them.

 

I noticed one person advertising in help chat, "I've gotten level 50. So now what do I need to do to equip my character and start enjoying the game?"

We've failed that person. They're level 50 and want to START enjoying the game. They've missed most of the game on their first character. If they're lucky, they'll be introduced to taskforces and the flashback system. If not, they'll discover that a lot of level 50 players do nothing but the same two trials over and over, get bored and leave the game because it seems like there's nothing to do compared to other MMOs. We can hope they make more characters to experience more of the game.

 

A significant number of players take pride in powerlevelling anyone they can. They feel they're helping others by doing so, or even giving them a gift. In games where all the content is biased towards the end of the game, that might be true. For CoH players who've experienced the game's content many times over, that might be true. For new players who haven't really had much experience with the game, powerlevelling them means we're robbing their character of the missions that are not in Ouroboros flashback system. It means we're taking away a relatively gentle learning curve and expecting them to learn their character at level 50.

 

The answer to keep this situation from happening is pretty straightforward. Don't advertise free powerlevelling. The players who WANT powerlevelling will still ask for it, and are not shy about doing so. People who want to powerlevel as a 'gift' will still have every opportunity to do so, even if they don't advertise.

 

More recently, I saw a farmer encouraging a new player to play a character 'the long way' rather than powerlevelling. They explained that they wanted the newbie to enjoy the game and to stay for the long haul, and that they felt the best way to do that was to learn the game organically. That's the best solution, in my opinion. We ALL need to communicate to new players that the game's content and major story does NOT begin at max level the way some others do.

 

What ways do you see that we fail new players and what are your suggestions for fixing those problems?

 

-------------------------------

 

Some additional thoughts.

 

1. So it's fine for "you" to give opinions, but not anyone else?

When you do it: "Hey I'm just giving advice."

When I do it: "ITS JUST A VIDEO GAME!"

 

Your advice: - "play 1 to 50. THEN decide if you like the game."

My advice: - "You can play X way, or Y way, or even Z way. There is no wrong way. There's upsides and downsides to all of them."

 

2. And yes, a narrative. One can browse the past tabs in general chat and see that anti farming/anti AE topics are fairly common. Often by the same names in fact. So, if its "just a game" why do some people push it so hard to have a tool they don't even want used removed for other people?

 

And I think I am done trying to argue with a brick wall here. You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. And until the staff tells me differently, I will power level whomever I damn well please. Don't like it? Too bad. Not your concern. And if it "doesn't matter" then why do people keep whining about it?

[shortguy on indom]

🏁

[ZemX]

36 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I would call this "forceful." Or at least one attempt in many to try and have AE removed entirely.

 

Did they say they wanted it removed?  Did they say how they'd do it?  Was it even discussed?  Answer: No to all.  

 

Look, if someone comes along in this thread and says straight up they want it removed so they can force everyone to play their way, I will JOIN you in disagreeing with them.   The fact is, they haven't.  Not saying no one ever said it anywhere on these forums ever.  I would not be surprised if someone has.  But it's not being said HERE at least that I have seen.    Shit, this person you're talking about in this case... not my favorite person on these forums.  Pretty sure I am on that ignore list they like to boast about in their .sig.  But fair is fair.  They used the word "suggest" when saying what they'd tell new players.  And anyone is allowed to suggest.  In fact, none of us can really do more than that anyway.

 

43 minutes ago, Neiska said:

So it's fine for "you" to give opinions, but not anyone else?

 

What opinion of yours have I said you're not allowed to have?

 

52 minutes ago, Neiska said:

My advice: - "You can play X way, or Y way, or even Z way. There is no wrong way. There's upsides and downsides to all of them."

 

If you're willing to explain what X, Y, and Z are and what the advantages/disadvantages are to each then great.  Otherwise this is not giving any useful information.  You can still say whatever you like, but it doesn't sound helpful.  

 

54 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Your advice: - "play 1 to 50. THEN decide if you like the game."

 

And?  First of all, not quite correct.  I've said more recently I think playing at least some of the way from 1 to 50 is fine too.  This is no more controversial than a tutorial or a game that gradually introduces abilities or game systems as you play.  The whole point is not to drop you in at max. level and say, "Okay, here's the whole game! Good luck!"   This is the advice I'd give people and they can take it or leave it.  I don't have to TELL people that.  If they are asking me for advice, it should be understood the decision is always theirs.  I don't need to add legal disclaimers on my opinions.