"No Transformation" option for HEATs

[Videra]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Okay, this is a derailment and I apologize for it, but can someone please explain what you mean by changeling? I thought it was just another way of saying tri-form, but this discussion shows it obviously is not.

@Laucianna Made a guide in the Kheldian sub-forum, look there.

Anyway, +100 to giving Khelds a min-fx form option. Big, easy W there.

[tidge]

5 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Start suggesting buffs to human form instead

 

We've been discussing, in several threads such as

 

 

My personal opinion is mostly this: Because the attacks for Kheldians come at the (mostly early) levels the come at, part of the "design formula" means that those (mostly early) attacks are in aggregate inferior to the sort of options that other ATs get. There is a little bit of "slotting analysis paralysis" as well, since the non-human forms come with so many powers to potentially slot.

 

Kheldians can "make do", but even a well-built, well-played Kheldian falls behind other ATs in terms of map clear speeds, at least in my experience.

 

 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Videra said:

@Laucianna Made a guide in the Kheldian sub-forum, look there.

Anyway, +100 to giving Khelds a min-fx form option. Big, easy W there.

Okay, I'm not even going to ask how in hell that works or what exactly she is doing, but thank you for letting me know where I could find it.

[Laucianna]

Getting back on track I do honestly think a more minimal FX option for Kheldians is something desired, not talking about DPS or anything like that but a way to use the forms that doesn't fully overwrite your costume with 1 of two presets (Dwarf or Nova) and if something is desired enough and will encourage people to play the AT to it's full extent (using the forms) then I am all for it ❤️

 

[Bionic_Flea]

I like the Vixen/Armor option.   If you go nova, you start flying, get the Nova stats, and you have a ghost image of the Nova either above or surrounding your costume and the same as always Nova powers.  And same for Dwarf, your footsteps become louder, you get Dwarf stats, and you have a ghost image of a Dwarf with the same as always Dwarf powers. 

 

It's the same as it is now, except instead of a full transformation, you get the ghost image instead.  That's just cosmetic, not any kind of power creep.  It doesn't fix Kheldians or remove changeling playing.

 

I think I might like Nova as hovering and Dwarf as surrounding, but that's just a personal preference detail.  Standard code rant: I have no idea how hard that would be to code, if if it's even possible.

[Laucianna]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I like the Vixen/Armor option.   If you go nova, you start flying, get the Nova stats, and you have a ghost image of the Nova either above or surrounding your costume and the same as always Nova powers.  And same for Dwarf, your footsteps become louder, you get Dwarf stats, and you have a ghost image of a Dwarf with the same as always Dwarf powers. 

 

It's the same as it is now, except instead of a full transformation, you get the ghost image instead.  That's just cosmetic, not any kind of power creep.  It doesn't fix Kheldians or remove changeling playing.

 

I think I might like Nova as hovering and Dwarf as surrounding, but that's just a personal preference detail.  Standard code rant: I have no idea how hard that would be to code, if if it's even possible.

Yeah that's how Vixen does it too in the video, her tanky forms like Gorilla appear over her and the flying Eagle appears behind her shoulders ❤️

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Videra said:

 

What you're failing to understand here is that a properly built, mid-tier scrapper currently rests at anywhere from 700-800 DPS. Ditto for other DPS classes that keep up, and plenty of options break four digits.

Kheldians are in a really, really bad state at the moment, Doomrider's math shows why.

This is not remotely true unless you abuse temp powers and accolades (which we know you do), count pet DPS on pylons that don’t fight back, etc.

 

700+ DPS is absolutely *upper* tier DPS under normal circumstances, even for Scrappers or Blasters. 
 

I can absolutely guarantee that you cannot take a mid-tier primary/secondary pick and get that much DPS under a reasonable set of basic rules. 
 

And if a Kheldian with 85% resistance can get to that level, it’s broken and in need of fixing. 

Edited June 16 by arcane

[Bionic_Flea]

Yeah, I'd like to see a source for the 700+ DPS.  None of Ston's test runs got anywhere close to that. 

 

Closest I can find is Clam Leader with 632 DPS on a general build.  Ratch got more but with an unsustainable burst build.

[Glacier Peak]

10 hours ago, Laucianna said:

So similar to the way the hero Vixen does from DC, where it shows the form (With a slight transparency) over your player when you switch into the form and then either vanishes leaving you as human only or with it constantly as a transparent form on top of yours (I still want to poll what people will prefer on the post I make). This is something I have checked with Devs and is possible but not as a minor thing so could be something in the rework 🙂
 

 

 

Both builds can be seen on my guide alongside the damage numbers beside them ❤️ Both have some attacks procced out, others not depending on what is needed to make it a build that can be used in content outside of just Pylon DPS checks 😄
 

I was totally thinking of the Kingdom Hearts villain after seeing that:

 

[Glacier Peak]

On 6/14/2024 at 2:55 AM, Vic Raiden said:

Exactly what it says on the tin. Peacebringers and Warshades both have their Nova and Dwarf forms, which turn them into alien creatures focused on ranged and melee attacks, respectively.

 

So I looked through powerset customization when pondering whether to make a PB, and noticed all off the attacks exclusive to the Nova and Dwarf transformations have properly functioning animations for a human character model using them, and thus my wish to make it actually possible to use them without necessarily having to take the form of a hovering squid or mutated gorilla first.

Oh would you look at that

 

[Triumphant]

14 hours ago, Ghost said:

A cosmetic option that takes away the “cost” of picking the power.  Okay.  Sure.  Sounds great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

People that equate cosmetic option with a cost, as though it's some kind of game balancing factor.  Hilarious.  😄

 

 

 

[Greycat]

11 hours ago, tidge said:

Kheldians can "make do", but even a well-built, well-played Kheldian falls behind other ATs in terms of map clear speeds, at least in my experience.

 

 

And whenever I read something about this - about any AT - I have to say... "So what?"

 

I'm not here to clear the most number of maps in an hour. I'm not getting paid to do it. I'm not going to lose all my levels I earned if Jim Scrapper clears more today. Tommy Tank isn't going to get a bigger end of month bonus because he cleared 100 more maps than I did.

 

If "Map clear speed" is the metric here we care about, well, I have controllers that watch stuff die of old age. Their "maps cleared per hour" might be 1-2. Guess they need a massive buff long before Kheldians.

8 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Oh would you look at that

 

The comic is not the game. The comic does not have to, and does not necessarily, stick to the lore of the game. The comic has to do things like "have the reader visually distinguish and track characters."   There is nothing in their description or lore that says "They pick and choose the bits they want to use at any particular time." They use what bits they had, often defined before finalization in game, and do what they feel they need to to tell the story they want to tell. My characters did not fight alongside the Phalanx to down the Arachnos patrons, along with dozens of other players, yet that's in the comics, too.

 

Khelds are an *epic AT.* Epic, as defined by the live devs, being "Epic as in Epic of Gilgamesh" - IE, tied to some specific bit of, and telling, a story. It's why for the longest time they were locked in to origin (Khelds) and gender and a costume slot (VEATs.)

 

If we're just going to say "eff what they're supposed to be, I want I want I want counts more" why bother having Epics at all? Just move their story arcs into general play and disallow making them as ATs. Make an energy blast sentinel instead. Have to tweak some story arcs, since it would make no sense for a Void Hunter to be threatening your Scrapper, but it wouldn't matter any more.

[Ghost]

[Laucianna]

53 minutes ago, Greycat said:

If we're just going to say "eff what they're supposed to be, I want I want I want counts more"

Are you able to show in lore where it is cannon that all Kheldians have interacted with the Dwarf forms or the Nova forms? Or where it states they have to fully transform their body into that form? From my knowledge and power descriptions Kheldians are "masters of energy and matter" which to me sounds like they would have control over if they want to fully turn into the form or partially turn into the form like my suggestion 🙂

I fully understand wanting to keep the AT tied to lore as it is a HUGE part of what makes Kheldians great, but there is no harm in trying to figure out a way to make the AT more appealing to others whilst keeping it in line with the lore ❤️

[Ghost]

5 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

, but there is no harm in trying to figure out a way to make the AT more appealing to others whilst keeping it in line with the lore ❤️

 
Why try to make it more appealing?  
A lot of people enjoy playing them.  Why the need to attract more?

If people want to play it, they will.  If they don’t, they won’t.

For every one person you attract by making a change, don’t you also run the risk of chasing one away who enjoys the way they currently play?

 

[Laucianna]

12 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Why try to make it more appealing?  

Why wouldn't you? It's a nice QoL change same as toggle suppression (Although toggle suppression could be classed as a buff without having to retoggle) that makes the AT and the game more enjoyable, it won't affect anyone who likes the forms already as it will be an option 🙂 And with how often I hear "I want to play a Kheldian but don't like the look of the forms" it is safe to say quite a few people desire this sort of feature to the AT ❤️

[Greycat]

28 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Why wouldn't you? It's a nice QoL change same as toggle suppression

 

Toggle suppression isn't related to the lore that defines the AT at all, so that's pretty much an apples and tractor tires comparison.

 

Frankly I'm just tired of seeing anything unique or special about Khelds just keep getting chipped away at. Voids have gone from being a threat to being "eh, just another mob." Cysts have gone from being a threat to just a pretty rock. Light form? "I NEED TO SEE MY COSTUME!" - fortunately some of us argued to be able to keep the old look or *that* would be gone. Despite the specific definitions of why they are how they are, you're no longer locked to an origin - despite that having no real in game impact. Lore loses to "I want" again. You no longer have to have a 50, or even a 20, to make one, despite it being more complex than a standard AT. Frankly I'm almost surprised you still get introduced to Sunstorm and Shadowstar.

 

If you want to do the armored blasting without changing your look? We have sentinels now. I'm just frankly sick and tired of an AT I've loved and played since i3 being slowly robbed of anything special about it. You want to argue numbers? Fine, argue numbers. Those don't make a Kheld not a Kheld. But leave *what they are* alone. That includes the forms looks.

 

28 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

And with how often I hear "I want to play a Kheldian but don't like the look of the forms" it is safe to say quite a few people desire this sort of feature to the AT ❤️

 

Maybe the next question should be "Why do you want to play a Kheldian?" I know since live I've heard "It's called an epic AT, I expect it to be uberpowerful" and when they find it's not *that* definition of epic they get disappointed.  Literally having people expect to go into a room, footstomp and kill half of what's in it. (Then, of course, "Khelds suck!") No, that is not hyperbole.

 

I can answer why for *me* and it was specifically shapeshifting - I remember seeing a PB in Nova form pop out of a mission door in issue 3 in the Hollows, wondering what it does, seeing what they are and that they had a bunch of lore specifically for them *that you play through, unique to them* - well, that was the carrot that got me through full levels of debt and no content in the late 30s on the blaster that became my first 50. A bit of revenge as that character became a PB and revisited old TFs and content was the cherry on top.

 

If you don't want *the forms,* if you just want to be blasty and shielded... again, we have sentinels now. I'd rather push people towards those (and mine, without any sort of special build, can happily do things like tank for Rikti invasion groups, eating dropship blasts without noticing the first ten or so before popping a heal so the lowbies don't get killed) then have Khelds get more and more stripped away until there's absolutely nothing special about them but a contact (whose content you can run other ATs through in Ouro anyway. )

 

Sentinels have shields, status protection (without relying on a form,) blasts, melee, they don't have any special enemies targeting them (which are another "I hate khelds because voids!" even after those were nerfed) - frankly I think most of the people who have wanted all these changes to Khelds would've been happier playing those if they'd been available on live. And Khelds could have remain ed the "You want more of a challenge, you want lore, here you go" ATs.

Edited June 16 by Greycat

[Laucianna]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Lore loses to "I want" again.

I am not seeing anything changed that makes the lore lose out so please correct me if I am missing anything 😅

No longer need to be level 50/20 - If when making a Kheldian you had to turn one of your other characters into a Peacebringer/Warshade I could understand, but that is just a limit no longer needed with the advancement of player knowledge/skill in general.

Light form to see costume - You can still toggle the original ball of light mode if that is what you want ❤️ But for others you get a special look of pure energy embracing you (Whilst also giving a buff to those using the lightball mode due to no collision with players/mobs)

Origin no longer locked - Origins are a big argument in themselves, for me personally my character was an exceptional teleporter and summoner before merging with a Kheldian so the forced natural origin lock would diminish that lore as it's not her origin.

Nothing has been robbed from Kheldians, and all people are asking for is a bit more customization when it comes to their Kheldians, it is not my place nor anyone else's to tell people they have to play tri form and use the forms and like it, we should be encouraging more people to enjoy Kheldians and this suggestion I 100% believe can do that without changing or ruining their lore in the slightest.

[Ghost]

52 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Why wouldn't you? It's a nice QoL change same as toggle suppression (Although toggle suppression could be classed as a buff without having to retoggle) that makes the AT and the game more enjoyable, it won't affect anyone who likes the forms already as it will be an option 🙂 And with how often I hear "I want to play a Kheldian but don't like the look of the forms" it is safe to say quite a few people desire this sort of feature to the AT ❤️

 

Isn’t that what playing a kheldisn means though? Shapeshifting - at least that was the initial  attraction for me.

I guess that I just don’t understand these type of requests.  There are certain powers I simply don’t like, so I don’t play them.  I don’t advocate changing them so I can try them out.  
To me, that’s one of the great things about this game.  The toons, powers and costumes are not cookie cutter.  
 

I’m curious, and I know it’s a little off track but, would you support a request to allow all ATs the ability to shapeshift into Kheldian forms?

What if I like Dwarf form, but don’t like Khelds.  Maybe I’d like to be a WP Tank and be able to transform.

 

 

On a different note…..

I remember a thread not long ago where people were upset that brutes “had no identity”.  Now some of those same people are in this thread advocating for taking away the Kheldians  “identity” - gotta love hypocrisy.

[Vic Raiden]

... I created a monster.

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

The comic is not the game.

War Witch, Apex, Requiem (instead of Science Lord), the memorial in Kings Row for Breakneck, the Fashion Show story arc, among other things - they all made it in to the game from that comic. It's good reference material.

[Laucianna]

8 minutes ago, Ghost said:

 

Isn’t that what playing a kheldisn means though? Shapeshifting - at least that was the initial  attraction for me.

I guess that I just don’t understand these type of requests.  There are certain powers I simply don’t like, so I don’t play them.  I don’t advocate changing them so I can try them out.  
To me, that’s one of the great things about this game.  The toons, powers and costumes are not cookie cutter.  
 

I’m curious, and I know it’s a little off track but, would you support a request to allow all ATs the ability to shapeshift into Kheldian forms?

What if I like Dwarf form, but don’t like Khelds.  Maybe I’d like to be a WP Tank and be able to transform.

 

 

On a different note…..

I remember a thread not long ago where people were upset that brutes “had no identity”.  Now some of those same people are in this thread advocating for taking away the Kheldians  “identity” - gotta love hypocrisy.

Playing a Kheldian can be for a number or reasons, for most it is the shapeshifting, but for some it might be lore tied into the story, the looks of the other powers, their friends playing one etc 🙂 And honestly if the game was made today an Epic powerpool would probably suit Kheldians better to allow other AT's a sort of tanking form or a blasting form, but that trip sailed a long time ago 😄

 

[Greycat]

27 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Nothing has been robbed from Kheldians,

 

I *strongly* disagree with that, having watched them for ... well, issue 3 came out in 2025, so nearly 20 years now. And am tired of this whole slope of "Oh, it's JUST this" and "oh, it's JUST that" changes that, yes, *have* been robbing Khelds of being Khelds.

29 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

No longer need to be level 50/20 - If when making a Kheldian you had to turn one of your other characters into a Peacebringer/Warshade I could understand, but that is just a limit no longer needed with the advancement of player knowledge/skill in general.

 

... see *every discussion of new player issues.* And those new players can now just start a more complex AT right off the bat. So, no.

 

30 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Origin no longer locked - Origins are a big argument in themselves, for me personally my character was an exceptional teleporter and summoner before merging with a Kheldian so the forced natural origin lock would diminish that lore as it's not her origin.

 

See "Epic = lore based." You are not a magic Kheldian. A Peacebringer or Warshade's abilities do not come from slinging spells. As a Kheldian, you are a merged being - a capability which is natural to the Peacebringers, and scientifically altered for the Warshades/Nictus.

 

33 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Nothing has been robbed from Kheldians, and all people are asking for is a bit more customization when it comes to their Kheldians, it is not my place nor anyone else's to tell people they have to play tri form and use the forms and like it, we should be encouraging more people to enjoy Kheldians and this suggestion I 100% believe can do that without changing or ruining their lore in the slightest.

 

And "a little bit less difficulty" and "oh voids are too hard, tone them down" and "oh, I don't know how to deal with Cysts, turn them down/off" and "You say there's a lot to them but why do I have to wait to play them" and "Oh, MINE's an angel, I shouldn't have to be natural origin" and... and...and... until we get to "Why were Khelds a thing again?" Already sliding down that slope.

[Greycat]

6 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

War Witch, Apex, Requiem (instead of Science Lord), the memorial in Kings Row for Breakneck, the Fashion Show story arc, among other things - they all made it in to the game from that comic. It's good reference material.

 

. <----- the point.                                                                                                                                                                you---------->.

 

 

😉

Edited June 16 by Greycat
(Added the emoji so you know that yes, I'm mostly poking at you non seriously.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Laucianna said:

Playing a Kheldian can be for a number or reasons, for most it is the shapeshifting, but for some it might be lore tied into the story, the looks of the other powers, their friends playing one etc 🙂 And honestly if the game was made today an Epic powerpool would probably suit Kheldians better to allow other AT's a sort of tanking form or a blasting form, but that trip sailed a long time ago 😄

Or Support form! I 6-slot my Glowing Touch ✨️ 😀