"Street" Giant Monsters and guaranteed elimination

[tidge]

51 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

 For the love of this game, please don't make it even easier when players already ignore the simplest of game mechanics and instead say it's too hard because they are unwilling to take a mere moment to observe what is happening on their screen and respond with rational actions. Better yet - learn from defeat, understand that one enemy should be attacked first, or even to use fold space to maximize the AoEs of teammates, or just literally anything instead of complaining and choosing not to learn from defeat.

 

I've often observed teams of players fighting nuAdamastor ignore the warning to back away just to watch it heal back up to full health. Most of the time this simply delays its defeat... but every so often I'll be with a team that is clearly struggling to make damage stick to it and the play behavior is indistinguishable from "facerolling on keyboard".

 

2 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

I can empathize with your frustration, Ultimo. I've played this game for years, but never gotten very good at it. I've come to accept that there is certain content that I'm just not skilled enough to do. There's no way the game could be nerfed down to my level without ruining it for the players who do know what they're doing. So I stay in my lane, run regular missions, and take my enjoyment from the parts of the game that are within my grasp.

 

Soloing Giant Monsters isn't IMO one of the things that should be common for most builds. I dare say that most builds can't tackle GMs solo without Incarnates and/or temp powers, and if we are talking about Defenders, I think those are probably among the least likely to be able to solo a non-Holiday Giant Monster... maybe Kheldians would be worse?

[Ultimo]

4 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

This is such an exaggeration and rather misleading too, that I have to respond - please don't feel attacked. Can you name one enemy that instantly defeats a player in one attack. It had better be a special boss fight or circumstance that you cite, because there is no such attack that can defeat a player in one attack in normal content. There are game mechanics where players will receive a HUGE BOLDED COLORFUL MESSAGE that pops up across their screen indicating they should probably move away or break line of sight and if they choose to ignore it will be attacked and likely experience defeat. This isn't many - this is unique. There are a handful, less than a dozen, few - not MANY.

 

Ah there's the qualifier - pulling back on the broad brush strokes and submitting to my previous point. Players that ignore the game's mechanics and face roll their keyboards should experience the likely outcome of their decisions. Players who observe the game's mechanics and their own weaknesses should be rewarded.

 

Returning to the "many or most" to try and make a point is just wrong. Players have ample opportunities to counter the game's mechanics to their benefit. Those who choose not to are making a conscious effort to experience defeat as much as possible. Or just ask for help?

 

No, no, no neither of these things needs done. Pop an orange or purple, invite a teammate who has buffs or debuffs, hit and run, use temporary powers like a warburg nuke or envenomed daggers or summon a signature pet, adjust the strategy of attack, ask for help. For the love of this game, please don't make it even easier when players already ignore the simplest of game mechanics and instead say it's too hard because they are unwilling to take a mere moment to observe what is happening on their screen and respond with rational actions. Better yet - learn from defeat, understand that one enemy should be attacked first, or even to use fold space to maximize the AoEs of teammates, or just literally anything instead of complaining and choosing not to learn from defeat.

 

There is an actual tutorial for Invention Origin enhancements. They can be crafted anywhere in the game, at any time. Players can purchase the needed recipes instead of waiting for drops. If players don't want to wait for recipe drops, they can purchase them or use Reward Merits at a Merit Vendor. They can be stored in player bases or in-game emails. It is very possible and very accessible. How can Invention Origin enhancements be made even more accessible than that!?

It's neither an exaggeration, nor misleading.  I came out of a mission one time just as a Rikti ship passed over me.  It fired its DOT beam, and I was oneshotted.  Another time, I was in the Manticore TF on my Defender.  The bodyguard guy punched me ONCE, and I was dead.  Yes, he left me with one health, but did enough damage to kill me a DOZEN times over.  You're going to say that's not overkill?  That I had one health is little more than a semantic "not defeated," since any minions or a strong breeze finishes you off.

Big bold messages are fine, because they WARN you to move or take action to avoid defeat.  I'm absolutely FINE with that.  However, most high end villains do enough damage to kill a lot of characters many times over, just with basic attacks, with no warning and no way to avoid or survive them.

 

It isn't submitting to your point to say that characters with 1 hit point are effectively defeated.  That mechanic actually accomplishes NOTHING, since so many attacks are DOTs and you're usually under attack by SEVERAL foes.  It's a meaningless gesture so they can say "Oh no, you can't be oneshotted," when the reality is quite different.

 

So... you're saying I'm wrong to say many or most characters can't survive attacks that do several times their maximum health?  That I should adapt to the game mechanics?  How, exactly?  The enemy attacks with, for example, KO Blow.  It "rolls" a 2, or gets a streakbreaker, meaning it's guaranteed to hit.  It does 3000 damage to my character with 255 health.  How do I adapt to that?  Stay away from him, you say?  Good plan.  But he throws a boulder and does 1000 damage, stuns and suppresses flight.  Now what?  Pop some inspirations?  He's guaranteed to hit, so defense is useless.  He's doing 10 times my maximum health, so resistance is useless.  He's stunning and knocking me down, so I can't actually USE them until I stand up, by which time he's done that last 1 point of damage...  Tankers can sometimes survive, but even at that, not for long.  Other characters are just screwed.  Controllers have less health than anyone, and rely on their controls for defense... meaning they have NO defense against Bosses, Elite Bosses, Arch Villains and Giant Monsters.  How is that Controller supposed to withstand even ONE attack from Wretch or Ghost Widow?

Since characters are GOING to get hit, it MUST be possible to survive and react to getting hit.  Minion damage is fine.  Lieutenant damage is fine.  Boss damage is fine.  Elite Bosses often do way too much damage.  Arch Villains and Giant Monsters also do WAY too much damage, almost all of the time.

You may say this makes it too easy for Tankers to survive... and I say they're SUPPOSED to survive.  That's what makes them TANKERS.

 

I'm also aware of HOW to make IOs.  That isn't the problem.  The problem is that I have NEVER had any of the recipes I need for ANY of my characters drop, and I've NEVER had any of the ultrarare salvage needed to make them, even if I did get them... and there's NO way I can afford 500 billion inf PER CHARACTER to buy the stuff needed.  Making them isn't the issue.  Getting what's needed is the issue.  The stuff needed is too rare, and too expensive.

 

I will say, I don't feel attacked, I thank you for your concern, and I reply in kind.  This has been the source of frustration for me dating back to the earliest live days, so if I come across with inappropriate enthusiasm, I do apologize.

Edited August 12 by Ultimo

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I'm also aware of HOW to make IOs.  That isn't the problem.  The problem is that I have NEVER had any of the recipes I need for ANY of my characters drop, and I've NEVER had any of the ultrarare salvage needed to make them, even if I did get them... and there's NO way I can afford 500 billion inf PER CHARACTER to buy the stuff needed.  Making them isn't the issue.  Getting what's needed is the issue.  The stuff needed is too rare, and too expensive.

 

You've got a problem getting the stuff to equip your Toons.  I can give a little guidance here.  Good builds are also around 500 million Influence range and up.  A good L50 makes millions of Influence in a single day's play session, so with a little Marketing should be able to handle about a L50 every few months or so.

1. If you don't have one, Create a Personal Supergroup and make a SG Base to store stuff.
   1. Really important when you Respec a Toon and need to store the removed IOs for another Toon or sale later.
   2. Let me know if you can't make a simple SG Base with all the teleport, storage, and crafting items, etc.
2. If you don't have one, Create a 2nd Account.
   1. I have on my 2nd Account:
      1. DarkM/Inv Scrapper Anchor Toon
      2. Spines/Fire Brute Farmer
      3. Kinetics/Electric Defender
   2. They also carry stock of stuff that Toons can carry a lot of, some the Base can't store like Recipes.
   3. They help a lot when I need to transfer a lot of stuff between my main Account Toons, especially when they're not in my own SG.
3. Check out "The Market" section of the Forums for ways to make Influence.  I don't really farm these days as I make Influence playing my L50s and some simple Marketing.
   https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/51-the-market/
4. To cut down the cost of pricey IOs, I suggest getting the Recipes and Salvage and crafting them.
   1. Use Market Conversion and Market Attunement to reduce costs and need for Catalysts.

 

[tidge]

I have a minor quibble about character builds, depending on personal values of "good".

 

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

You've got a problem getting the stuff to equip your Toons.  I can give a little guidance here.  Good builds are also around 500 million Influence range and up.

 

With 67 slots on a level 50, I think a "good" character can be built spending an average of no more than 2 Minf per slot for attuned IOs. Common IOs can be bought for much less... so I'd put the cap closer to 134 MInf than 500 Minf.

 

The rest of the @Jacke advice is fine, although it ignores the ability of players to directly convert merits into ATO/Winter enhancements and/or recipes for PVP/Very Rare Enhancements, for players that don't *want* to bother with the AH (because "tutorials", or whatever)

 

It's rather trivial for a level 50 character to be able to accumulate 600 merits (convertable to a full set of ATO) in one weeks' play, but the player has to make some choices to do that.

[Glacier Peak]

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

It's neither an exaggeration, nor misleading.  I came out of a mission one time just as a Rikti ship passed over me.  It fired its DOT beam, and I was oneshotted.  Another time, I was in the Manticore TF on my Defender.  The bodyguard guy punched me ONCE, and I was dead.  Yes, he left me with one health, but did enough damage to kill me a DOZEN times over.  You're going to say that's not overkill?  That I had one health is little more than a semantic "not defeated," since any minions or a strong breeze finishes you off.

Big bold messages are fine, because they WARN you to move or take action to avoid defeat.  I'm absolutely FINE with that.  

This is an exaggeration and misleading and you've cited two instances that are neither what you described previously as quoted. The Rikti ship can be countered by using the Hamidon Essence toggle from the LGTF. The attack from Hopkins in the Manticore TF is not a one shot attack. You said, and I quoted:

 

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

instantly defeats a player in one attack

 

The words you say have meaning. And now you've doubled down on the "most high end villains" sentiment. 

 

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

However, most high end villains do enough damage to kill a lot of characters many times over, just with basic attacks, with no warning and no way to avoid or survive them.

No, most high end villains don't do enough damage to kill a lot of characters many times over with just basic attacks with no warning and no way to avoid or survive them. That is completely false and an exaggeration. You're clearly experiencing difficulty and are frustrated, but advocating for a change in game difficulty based on this is ridiculous. Use the tools that players have to mitigate defeat. Ask for help, I'm more than happy to show you on Indomitable. Unless a player is intentionally making the game difficult for themselves, there is no excuse for players who choose not to avail themselves of the tools in this game. 

 

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

It isn't submitting to your point to say that characters with 1 hit point are effectively defeated.  That mechanic actually accomplishes NOTHING, since so many attacks are DOTs and you're usually under attack by SEVERAL foes.  It's a meaningless gesture so they can say "Oh no, you can't be oneshotted," when the reality is quite different.

It's not meaningless, it's reality. Get on City of Data and show me a power that is designed to one shot a player. Stop exaggerating and misleading the player base and articulate factual data so that if a developer wanted to address this issue, as you've provide feedback on so many times, they can look at it instead of seeing the same line over and over. 

 

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

So... you're saying I'm wrong to say many or most characters can't survive attacks that do several times their maximum health?  That I should adapt to the game mechanics?  How, exactly?  The enemy attacks with, for example, KO Blow.  It "rolls" a 2, or gets a streakbreaker, meaning it's guaranteed to hit.  It does 3000 damage to my character with 255 health.  How do I adapt to that?  Stay away from him, you say?  Good plan.  But he throws a boulder and does 1000 damage, stuns and suppresses flight.  Now what?  Pop some inspirations?  He's guaranteed to hit, so defense is useless.  He's doing 10 times my maximum health, so resistance is useless.  He's stunning and knocking me down, so I can't actually USE them until I stand up, by which time he's done that last 1 point of damage...  Tankers can sometimes survive, but even at that, not for long.  Other characters are just screwed.  Controllers have less health than anyone, and rely on their controls for defense... meaning they have NO defense against Bosses, Elite Bosses, Arch Villains and Giant Monsters.  How is that Controller supposed to withstand even ONE attack from Wretch or Ghost Widow?

Since characters are GOING to get hit, it MUST be possible to survive and react to getting hit.  Minion damage is fine.  Lieutenant damage is fine.  Boss damage is fine.  Elite Bosses often do way too much damage.  Arch Villains and Giant Monsters also do WAY too much damage, almost all of the time.

You may say this makes it too easy for Tankers to survive... and I say they're SUPPOSED to survive.  That's what makes them TANKERS.

Yes, wrong,. Adapt, learn from defeat. You've clearly experienced defeat enough to know there are things happening to your character that you should avoid in the future when fighting that enemy or enemy group.

 

If a player is at 255 Health and they're normally at 1606 Health, they should use any of the possible options to mitigate incoming damage such as, breaking line of sight, moving out of distance from the next attack, communicating they need help in chat,  using inspiration to address the damage, using temporary powers to heal themselves or their own powerset to do so if a self heal is available, using their Incarnates if available, accept defeat and use a power that makes them stronger after like Revive or Power of the Phoenix, use Hibernate or Phase Shift, pop Rune of Protection, summon a Signature Pet Tank summon to take aggro off the player. And these are all things that can be done during the fight - afterwards players can change their builds to address the issue, or just simply learn what to avoid and prepare for it in the future, then communicate that with their team to ensure defeat doesn't happen again. 

 

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

The problem is that I have NEVER had any of the recipes I need for ANY of my characters drop, and I've NEVER had any of the ultrarare salvage needed to make them, even if I did get them... and there's NO way I can afford 500 billion inf PER CHARACTER to buy the stuff needed.  Making them isn't the issue.  Getting what's needed is the issue.  The stuff needed is too rare, and too expensive.

I know this is just exaggeration because you're frustrated, but I'm not sympathetic to this at all when players can purchase any recipe or IO they want using the rewards they earn in game. 500 billion influence? You can't be serious and it's not worth my time to respond to this part further. 

 

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I will say, I don't feel attacked, I thank you for your concern, and I reply in kind.  This has been the source of frustration for me dating back to the earliest live days, so if I come across with inappropriate enthusiasm, I do apologize.

Good - this game only works when other people play it. I'm more than happy to invite you to participate in any content or run through something you're challenged by so you're more confident and can enjoy this game more. My global is @Glacier Peak. 

[Jacke]

On 8/12/2024 at 12:01 PM, tidge said:

With 67 slots on a level 50, I think a "good" character can be built spending an average of no more than 2 Minf per slot for attuned IOs. Common IOs can be bought for much less... so I'd put the cap closer to 134 MInf than 500 Minf.

 

It's 67 Extra Slots.  In addition there's going to be at least the 24 Base Slots of the 24 Power Picks and the 4 Base Slots of Inherent Fitness, maybe 1 or 2 from the other Inherent Slots.  Perhaps 95 to 97 Slots total to equip on a Toon.  I still think the average will be closer to 4 to 5 million average per Slot, but careful purchases could keep that lower.

 

The prices @tidge mentions reminds me of another important cost-reduction fact beside buying the makings and crafting the Enhancement: Don't spend the Buy-It-Now price, but put bids up that take a week or more to fill to get everything at its lowest price as they go up and down in the Auction House.

 

 

On 8/12/2024 at 12:01 PM, tidge said:

The rest of the @Jacke advice is fine, although it ignores the ability of players to directly convert merits into ATO/Winter enhancements and/or recipes for PVP/Very Rare Enhancements, for players that don't *want* to bother with the AH (because "tutorials", or whatever)

 

It's rather trivial for a level 50 character to be able to accumulate 600 merits (convertable to a full set of ATO) in one weeks' play, but the player has to make some choices to do that.

 

I think the best use of Reward Merits is still to pick whichever Salvage the RMs can be converted into that gives the best return in Influence, usually either Enhancement Converters or Enhancement Boosters.  Then use the Influence to purchase compotents, ATOs, WOs, or Packs off of the Auction House.  The ability to turn RMs directly into Recipes or Enhancements puts an upper price on them that restrains the AH prices.

 

At some point when there's enough Influence revenue, it's possible to just buy Enhancement Converter or Boosters from the AH.  I do it to craft Enhancements to sell as well as getting the right Enhancements for a build.

 

 

Edited August 21 by Jacke

[tidge]

8 minutes ago, Jacke said:

I think the best use of Reward Merits is still to pick whichever Salvage the RMs can be converted into that gives the best return in Influence, usually either Enhancement Converters or Enhancement Boosters.  Then use the Influence to purchase compotents, ATOs, WOs, or Packs off of the Auction House.  The ability to turn RMs directly into Recipes or Enhancemetns puts an upper price on them that restrains the AH prices.

 

You are correct about the 67 being "extra" slots, and I neglected to account for Fitness. As for how it affects the costs, I usually start my characters with 60 Minf and by the time they are ready for the level 50 respec (when the "good" slotting becomes "D*** GOOD" slotting, they typically have around 100 Minf. Not enough to BIN Purples, but I wasn't using purples on the "good" build.

 

I 100% agree that there are more efficient ways to use the market to convert Merits to other things... but some people will resist using the market house, so I thought it was worth mentioning. Even if someone buys recipes via Merits, they are still likely to need the market house to get some of the ingredients.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:27 PM, Techwright said:

has there ever been a time when the team or league just fails to destroy a GM on the streets?

 

On 7/31/2024 at 9:27 PM, Techwright said:

If so, which GM and what happened?

 

... well if we are throwing out ...

 

On 7/31/2024 at 9:27 PM, Techwright said:

• Tackling any non-Sally, non-Hami GM with an understaffed team
• Tackling any non-Sally, non-Hami GM with an under-ranked team

 

First off, I don't consider Sally to be a Giant Monster.

Second, being understaffed or under-ranked would be the primary reasons for not defeating a Giant Monster.

 

Honestly, I would throw not having enough debuffs and/or damage into both the understaffed and under-ranked categories.

 

If we are exempting teams that are understaffed or under-ranked, I have never seen a team not defeat a Giant Monster.

So "no".

 

On 7/31/2024 at 9:27 PM, Techwright said:

Would you prefer a chance, even a small one, at failure due to the GM's efforts?

 

What are you suggesting?

That the Giant Monster should run away after a certain amount of time and "escape" if they reach a gate to another zone? (how would that work on the villian side?)

 

On 7/31/2024 at 9:27 PM, Techwright said:

For my part, I don't mind an occasional loss against something titanic if it is a hard-fought battle, and there's a chance for success.

 

How many Rikti drop ships have you taken down during rikti raids?

And, yes, they can be defeated.

 

"...The Rikti Drop Ship always cons as purple, without a level, similar to a Monster or Giant Monster. It has been observed with 76,695 Hit points and 800 Endurance in Cap au Diable and was targetable and attackable. The ship, while very hard to kill, does not award any special badges. In most cases the ship will fly beyond attackers long before they can significantly harm it..." - https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Rikti_Drop_Ship

 

Yep. All you get is the bragging rights.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13 by UltraAlt

[EmperorSteele]

Maybe not what OP asked for, but I recall Caleb being a pain because sometimes he just goes invis and flies to the top of the map when he spawns, leaving those hunting him perplexed.

 

*points to head* "Can't defeat me if you don't know where I am!"

[Jacke]

50 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

How many Rikti drop ships have you taken down during rikti raids?

And, yes, they can be defeated.

 

"...The Rikti Drop Ship always cons as purple, without a level, similar to a Monster or Giant Monster. It has been observed with 76,695 Hit points and 800 Endurance in Cap au Diable and was targetable and attackable. The ship, while very hard to kill, does not award any special badges. In most cases the ship will fly beyond attackers long before they can significantly harm it..." - https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Rikti_Drop_Ship

 

Yep. All you get is the bragging rights.

 

Doesn't taking down a Rikti Drop Ship reward the "Welcome to Earth" Badge as well as 6 Reward Merits?

[Techwright]

21 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

Maybe not what OP asked for, but I recall Caleb being a pain because sometimes he just goes invis and flies to the top of the map when he spawns, leaving those hunting him perplexed.

 

*points to head* "Can't defeat me if you don't know where I am!"

 

Well, while it is indeed different than what I was thinking, if Caleb potentially could have been eliminated before that moment, and wasn't, then I feel it is similar enough in spirit, at least, to qualify.

[EmperorSteele]

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

in spirit

 

Ba-dum Psh!

[catsi563]

Back on live very early GMs were just that GIANT MONSTERs I heard a call for help coming from Perez about the kraken 

 

I was on panda my D3 at the time and bounced my way there to see what was what and came across a boatload of people being slammed to death. i landed and keep in mind this was before ED and the AOE limits hit Howling Twilight and rezzed --to this day I maintain this story --24 people in one shot who managed to get it together and put the kraken down

 

So I hold the --Unofficial --record for most people rezzed in one shot on live Champion server

[Greycat]

On 8/12/2024 at 12:16 AM, Ultimo said:

It isn't submitting to your point to say that characters with 1 hit point are effectively defeated.  That mechanic actually accomplishes NOTHING, since so many attacks are DOTs and you're usually under attack by SEVERAL foes.  It's a meaningless gesture so they can say "Oh no, you can't be oneshotted," when the reality is quite different.

 

 

... just caught my eye here. This isn't even DOTs. There *are* attacks that have multiple components and thus can, indeed, "one shot" you. For instance, look at your combat log when hit with - I believe it's the Rikti energy sword. You'll see two "hits" of damage - they're not DOT, they're just two damage types hitting at once (Lethal and Energy, I believe.) These get around the "no one shot from 100%" rule, despite being one non-DOT attack. (Assuming it hits you hard enough.)

[Greycat]

On 8/13/2024 at 9:44 AM, Jacke said:

 

Doesn't taking down a Rikti Drop Ship reward the "Welcome to Earth" Badge as well as 6 Reward Merits?

 

That may just be the one in the RWZ, as opposed to the ones that fly over during invasions. I don't think the invasion ones reward anything.

[Glacier Peak]

14 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... just caught my eye here. This isn't even DOTs. There *are* attacks that have multiple components and thus can, indeed, "one shot" you. For instance, look at your combat log when hit with - I believe it's the Rikti energy sword. You'll see two "hits" of damage - they're not DOT, they're just two damage types hitting at once (Lethal and Energy, I believe.) These get around the "no one shot from 100%" rule, despite being one non-DOT attack. (Assuming it hits you hard enough.)

I'm not seeing what you're describing in the Rikti attacks you're referring to. They do Energy and Lethal Damage, but what does that have to do with one shotting a player? Are you saying that the damage is dealt consecutively instead of concurrently?

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=rikti.rikti_sword.rikti_sword&at=boss_grunt

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=rikti.rikti_greater_sword.greater_rikti_sword&at=boss_grunt

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm not seeing what you're describing in the Rikti attacks you're referring to. They do Energy and Lethal Damage, but what does that have to do with one shotting a player? Are you saying that the damage is dealt consecutively instead of concurrently?

 

It's counted as two "hits" as far as the one shot code is concerned. Or at least it had been for quite some time. It was specifically called out in a discussion on it on live.

[Ultimo]

On 8/15/2024 at 2:18 AM, Greycat said:

 

It's counted as two "hits" as far as the one shot code is concerned. Or at least it had been for quite some time. It was specifically called out in a discussion on it on live.

Quite so.  The other day, my scrapper went to Talos to participate in the Rikti raid (the usual battle on the hill), but got zapped as I was crossing the street from the tram.  It did several pulses of damage in one shot, and KOed me instantly.  It doesn't stop there.  What about fire attacks, with their burning DOT?  How about the electric attacks that do the same thing, or darkness, or ice... or any of the many DOTs.

 

The thing is, I think some are getting hung up on semantics.  What is a "Oneshot?"  One way to look at it is any attack that does more damage than the character's maximum health.  Another is a single attack (even one with several pulses of damage) that defeats the character in one shot.  The game is specifically set up to prevent this, but it does it in such a way as to make essentially no difference.  If an enemy can defeat you before you have any chance to respond, that's what I consider a oneshot.  I hope that's clearer.

 

To evaluate this, I tried a little experiment in the AE.

 

I created a mission with several of the standard AVs, including Hopkins, Clockwork King, Countess Crey, Vandal, and several others.  I then took my Controller in (since he's got the least defense), and turned on Invulnerability, so they couldn't actually damage him.  I then each in turn attack the character for 10 seconds, and added up the amount of damage done.  I also noted the highest damaging single attack and the lowest.  A couple of the AVs (eg. Clockwork King) couldn't be tested, because they were too low level and just ran away.  The results were interesting.

 

MOST of them did around 1600 damage over 10 seconds.  The highest was 1890, the lowest was 1325.

The highest damage attack was typically around 500-600 damage.  Hopkins had the high, just shy of 700.

The lowest damage attacks were usually around 200 damage.  The lowest (with one exception) was 188.

 

Generally, the enemies would hit the Controller for around 550 damage.  He has around 800 health, meaning the next attack WILL defeat him.  Whether he has 100 health or 1 health is meaningless if the attacks are doing a MINIMUM of 200 damage.

 

The exception to all this was Barracuda.  Her attacks did anywhere from 100-150 damage.

 

What does all this mean?  Against most AVs (which were all spawning as EBs, so as actual AVs they would be even STRONGER), the Controller would have NO opportunity to fight back.  He would either be immediately defeated, or would have no choice but to run away, since staying means the next hit defeats him.  There's NOTHING to do.

The difference is Barracuda.  Her attacks were strong enough to hurt, and she WOULD win a one on one fight almost every time, but her damage was low enough that the Controller COULD fight back.  He didn't have to flee immediately.  Frankly, that's just a LOT more fun, and allows for players to use other strategies to fight back.  Maybe do some hit and run tactics, or something.  You get the idea.

 

My position is simply that AVs and EBs should have their damage scaled back to more reasonable levels.  They already have many times our health, they're going to win most fights, one on one.  The same is true with GMs.

 

I hope this is clearer, I feel my thoughts on the matter have been poorly organized and expressed.

[Glacier Peak]

17 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

My position is simply that AVs and EBs should have their damage scaled back to more reasonable levels.  They already have many times our health, they're going to win most fights, one on one.  The same is true with GMs.

 

I hope this is clearer, I feel my thoughts on the matter have been poorly organized and expressed.

I appreciate your continued attempts at conveying your frustration and seeking an accommodation to address your concerns in the form of modifying the game. I am strongly against your recommendation and hope that common sense would prevail before such changes are given thought by the Homecoming Team. 

[Greycat]

26 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

 

The thing is, I think some are getting hung up on semantics.  What is a "Oneshot?"  One way to look at it is any attack that does more damage than the character's maximum health.  Another is a single attack (even one with several pulses of damage) that defeats the character in one shot.  The game is specifically set up to prevent this, but it does it in such a way as to make essentially no difference.  If an enemy can defeat you before you have any chance to respond, that's what I consider a oneshot.  I hope that's clearer.

 

 

Generally... yeah. I wouldn't consider a DOT *necessarily* a "one shot," since there are two distinct tics of damage - you could theoretically pop a green *right* between them to counter them, depending on how far apart those tics are.

 

And... yeah, the game plays with the definition a bit. The game's "oneshot code" will never let a player go from 100% to dead from a single hit of one type damage - not least from things like players TPing other lowbie players off the side of a skyscraper. That *used* to kill you, now it'd leave you with one HP. However, things like the Hellion burning building events in Steel Canyon are designed so that if you fail and the building blows up, it hits you *immediately* with three... I think it's 30,000 point damage sources, so you will not survive regardless of resistances, defense, etc. (though you can sometimes get in a blind spot and not get hit.) It's three 30k hits of damage, but they're instantaneous with one "attack" and thus a practical "one shot."

[Glacier Peak]

19 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Generally... yeah. I wouldn't consider a DOT *necessarily* a "one shot," since there are two distinct tics of damage - you could theoretically pop a green *right* between them to counter them, depending on how far apart those tics are.

 

And... yeah, the game plays with the definition a bit. The game's "oneshot code" will never let a player go from 100% to dead from a single hit of one type damage - not least from things like players TPing other lowbie players off the side of a skyscraper. That *used* to kill you, now it'd leave you with one HP. However, things like the Hellion burning building events in Steel Canyon are designed so that if you fail and the building blows up, it hits you *immediately* with three... I think it's 30,000 point damage sources, so you will not survive regardless of resistances, defense, etc. (though you can sometimes get in a blind spot and not get hit.) It's three 30k hits of damage, but they're instantaneous with one "attack" and thus a practical "one shot."

That's pretty close, it's more like 38,000 Fire Damage spread out over 1 second and I believe it's additive depending on where the player is within the 150ft radius of the power if I'm reading this power entry correctly:  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=hellions.building_explosion.backdraft&at=minion_grunt

 

Apparently Dillo, Gryym, and Twinshot all have a powerset called "OneShot Powers." 

[pawstruck]

Seems like we're pretty far from the sentiment of the OP. Giant Monsters, like most content in old CoX, are not a legitimate threat for most players at this point.

 

They definitely lack the "ohhhh shIT" factor from back in the day. I remember seeing Kraken for the first time and getting bonked by a tentacle... Was awesome. Those days may be long gone from this game, though.

[TheMoneyMaker]

I think we need some new giant monsters with some exciting twists to make them more challenging and interesting.

 

For example:

• Maybe spawning in the Abandoned Sewer Network in the big rooms is a mutated Kraken-like monster with tentacles both coming out of its body and additional independent tentacles coming out of the muck; maybe not as powerful as Lusca tentacles where you have to fight each one independently, but the extra tentacles count as EBs and are strong enough to slow you down against the main critter but they're a distraction that yield low XP despite EB status. No matter how many tentacles you kill, more keep spawning until the GM is defeated.
• Maybe another Clockwork monster but throw in some parts from other mechanical critters....like throw a couple Freakshow modifications on there, replace one of its arms with a Malta mecha gun arm and the other arm with a Council robot's energy blast arm or replace its head with the Zenith Hoverbot and its missiles and have it go nuts with a flurry of electric and missile attacks.
• A Devouring Earth critter like Jurassik that has been corrupted by the dark magics of the Circle of Thorns.  Replace the giant car-hammer with red crystalline hammer from the war mace or TW sets and have it do a big DoT life drain effect like those red crystals in CoT maps in addition to the bludgeoning damage. Maybe also give it some Spectral Daemon Lord wings and flight to indicate that it's a DE that's been possessed by a CoT spirit and also let it follow after people that try to stay out of range by flying. This could be used in both Paragon City and Rogue Isles.
• We have various "normal" sized 5th Column robots and a pair of mega-sized robots in the advanced mode ITF. Why not take one of the Aereus Colossi robots and shrink it down to regular GM proportions and call it a prototype of the big guys, then have it unleashed occasionally on Striga as a means of striking at the Council and not caring about who might get stepped on in the process. Have it armored against every kind of attack and is highly resistant to debuffs so that there's no weakness to rely on, and you just have to grind away while it takes shots at everyone in range. Striga is for heroes and villains now, so everyone can get a chance at it regardless of alignment.

[Techwright]

7 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

I think we need some new giant monsters with some exciting twists to make them more challenging and interesting.

 

For example:

 

 

• Maybe spawning in the Abandoned Sewer Network in the big rooms is a mutated Kraken-like monster with tentacles both coming out of its body and additional independent tentacles coming out of the muck; maybe not as powerful as Lusca tentacles where you have to fight each one independently, but the extra tentacles count as EBs and are strong enough to slow you down against the main critter but they're a distraction that yield low XP despite EB status. No matter how many tentacles you kill, more keep spawning until the GM is defeated. 
• Regardless of what it looks like, the idea of a swarm associated to a GM would make an interesting opponent.  The closest we have in game currently, I think, are Ghost of Scrapyard and Lusca.  GoS's followers don't pose much of a threat that I recall (it's been a while), and Lusca's arms are conveniently poised to deal with one at a time.  I suppose if a team or league decided to fight everything about Lusca all at once it might make an interesting challenge, but not quite the same.  Actually, there's one other, now that I think about it: Nemesis appearing during a Nemesis forces invasion.  I don't recall how frequently EBs spawn while he's functional, but I believe that version is a GM, so he's probably the closest comparison, though his appearance is timed.  Incidentally, I feel a core GM is important.  If we were to have a pure swarm as a GM, it would be akin to a Rikti invasion, just tougher.  If I were to make it distinctive from Nemesis, I'd want something regarding the swarm to force the players from a tight formation, forcing them to deal with what essentially are ramped-up sappers.
• Maybe another Clockwork monster but throw in some parts from other mechanical critters....like throw a couple Freakshow modifications on there, replace one of its arms with a Malta mecha gun arm and the other arm with a Council robot's energy blast arm or replace its head with the Zenith Hoverbot and its missiles and have it go nuts with a flurry of electric and missile attacks.
• A Devouring Earth critter like Jurassik that has been corrupted by the dark magics of the Circle of Thorns.  Replace the giant car-hammer with red crystalline hammer from the war mace or TW sets and have it do a big DoT life drain effect like those red crystals in CoT maps in addition to the bludgeoning damage. Maybe also give it some Spectral Daemon Lord wings and flight to indicate that it's a DE that's been possessed by a CoT spirit and also let it follow after people that try to stay out of range by flying. This could be used in both Paragon City and Rogue Isles.
• These previous two are somewhat interesting because what you're suggesting is to create something blended, rather than distinctive to a particular villain group.  It would be important that both its attacks and defenses reflected this, rather than just its appearance.
• We have various "normal" sized 5th Column robots and a pair of mega-sized robots in the advanced mode ITF. Why not take one of the Aereus Colossi robots and shrink it down to regular GM proportions and call it a prototype of the big guys, then have it unleashed occasionally on Striga as a means of striking at the Council and not caring about who might get stepped on in the process. Have it armored against every kind of attack and is highly resistant to debuffs so that there's no weakness to rely on, and you just have to grind away while it takes shots at everyone in range. Striga is for heroes and villains now, so everyone can get a chance at it regardless of alignment.
• I'd be down for it, however, there is another robot I'd like to see out on the streets:  the Crimson Prototype from Market Crash Trial.  Even better, its a swarm GM, and I've found the swarm is that distracting and dividing element I mentioned earlier, though everything within the trial is geared for a team in an instance and not a free-for-all on the street.

All that said, I'm not sure any one of them, with the possible exception of the Crimson Prototype retooled for street attacks, might hold the key to my OP comment: a GM that has a chance of winning.  Perhaps the key is to incorporate some additional element, something timed.  If the GM robot and its forces were to keep us from entering a bank to stop a robbery, for example, the timed aspect of the robbery might mean victory.  Currently, the only thing I can think of in game that has this threat is the Paladin assembly in King's Row.  The loss there is of a badge for preventing the creation, though we still get to destroy the Paladin that is created.

[TheMoneyMaker]

22 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

• Regardless of what it looks like, the idea of a swarm associated to a GM would make an interesting opponent.  The closest we have in game currently, I think, are Ghost of Scrapyard and Lusca.  GoS's followers don't pose much of a threat that I recall (it's been a while), and Lusca's arms are conveniently poised to deal with one at a time.  I suppose if a team or league decided to fight everything about Lusca all at once it might make an interesting challenge, but not quite the same.  Actually, there's one other, now that I think about it: Nemesis appearing during a Nemesis forces invasion.  I don't recall how frequently EBs spawn while he's functional, but I believe that version is a GM, so he's probably the closest comparison, though his appearance is timed.  Incidentally, I feel a core GM is important.  If we were to have a pure swarm as a GM, it would be akin to a Rikti invasion, just tougher.  If I were to make it distinctive from Nemesis, I'd want something regarding the swarm to force the players from a tight formation, forcing them to deal with what essentially are ramped-up sappers.
• These previous two are somewhat interesting because what you're suggesting is to create something blended, rather than distinctive to a particular villain group.  It would be important that both its attacks and defenses reflected this, rather than just its appearance.
• I'd be down for it, however, there is another robot I'd like to see out on the streets:  the Crimson Prototype from Market Crash Trial.  Even better, its a swarm GM, and I've found the swarm is that distracting and dividing element I mentioned earlier, though everything within the trial is geared for a team in an instance and not a free-for-all on the street.

All that said, I'm not sure any one of them, with the possible exception of the Crimson Prototype retooled for street attacks, might hold the key to my OP comment: a GM that has a chance of winning.  Perhaps the key is to incorporate some additional element, something timed.  If the GM robot and its forces were to keep us from entering a bank to stop a robbery, for example, the timed aspect of the robbery might mean victory.  Currently, the only thing I can think of in game that has this threat is the Paladin assembly in King's Row.  The loss there is of a badge for preventing the creation, though we still get to destroy the Paladin that is created.

I was just spitballing ideas. I like the GMs we have and don't want to see too much done to change them because why are they suddenly more powerful or whatever beyond just some people want a tougher challenge. New GMs with additional elements are definitely the way to go.  I don't know how possible any of my suggestions were but the ideas are whats important, because even if they can't be done maybe they could inspire other ideas that could like your suggestion of using the Crimson Prototype somewhere else.