Minimal FX Kheld Forms

[Luminara]

55 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

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[megaericzero]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Edit again: I know I sound like a stuck recording, but the reason why it always comes back to the lore is because of that "epic" part of "epic archetype". That story part of the AT is why there is such pushback against things like manifestation and construct variations. Outside of HEATs and VEATs, no AT has an "epic" part to them. Players get to define those other AT characters however they want.

I've no opposition at the repetition itself; I'd just ignore it if someone was shouting it to the sky on repeat about another topic. It's that that one reason is used to blanket-hand-waive every additional point made when that paradigm was already shifted thrice: EATS used to be locked into Natural (PB, AS, AW) or Science (WS) origin, that changed; Kheldians used to be locked out of the Flight and Teleportation pools, that changed; Kheldians didn't have access to power customization, that changed. (And Soldiers now have access to regular rifles, though widows still seem to be restricted on claws.)

 

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

In my analogy, Heracles is the Kheldian, so the parasite.

You're still not Heracles in that case. In the following section of your post, you mention the player designs the host, so you're still only inhabited by Heracles. That also further divorces the forms from being Heracles as well because now you're not channeling Heracles while in a non-human form - you're channeling his Zeus heritage or something else that's incorporated as a part of him but not purely him.

Edited August 9 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

I've no opposition at the repetition itself; I'd just ignore it if someone was shouting it to the sky on repeat about another topic. It's that that one reason is used to blanket-hand-waive every additional point made when that paradigm was already shifted thrice: EATS used to be locked into Natural (PB, AS, AW) or Science (WS) origin, that changed; Kheldians used to be locked out of the Flight and Teleportation pools, that changed; Kheldians didn't have access to power customization, that changed. (And Soldiers now have access to regular rifles, though widows still seem to be restricted on claws.)

And if the devs decide to throw the story part of EATs out the window, then that decides that and they may as well stop calling them epic archetypes. Because it is only their story that is the epic part of the AT. If the devs decide to downgrade EATs to just regular ATs, then they may as well open them up to other power sets, reduce their primary and secondary sets to 9 powers so they can be proliferated to other ATs, and enable the EATs to access APPs (and PPPs in the case of Kheldians). Until such time though? It is the story that makes them epic. And it is the story that forms the basis for resistance to things like "just let me see my costume at all times". That is what makes playing a Kheldian so unique. Because they are nothing like other ATs in their design. 27 different powers to a regular ATs 18. 2 of those powers do what no other AT in the game can do. Shapeshift into a completely different species to fight as. Each of which has their own 4 powers. Why even take the shapeshifting powers of a shapeshifting AT if the shapeshifting part is what a player does not like? Especially since anyone can make a perfectly capable human form only Kheldian that completely rocks. Or in light of how easy it is to make characters that seem to fight like Kheldians? Radiation Blast is a solid substitute. Color it white, make the character a Sentinel, and now you have a Kheldian character that you can always see the character's costume and shrugs off damage with ease.

 

28 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

In my analogy, Heracles is the Kheldian, so the parasite.

You're still not Heracles in that case. In the following section of your post, you mention the player designs the host, so you're still only inhabited by Heracles. That also further divorces the forms from being Heracles as well because now you're not channeling Heracles while in a non-human form - you're channeling his Zeus heritage or something else that's incorporated as a part of him but not purely him.

You are still misunderstanding me. So I'm going to try and clarify again. Heracles has specific powers/abilities. Heracles was required to perform 12 supposedly impossible labors as punishment. Someone says (s)he/they want to play through that. However, (s)he/they don't want to use Heracles' powers because it doesn't fit their concept of their character in that story. And they don't want to go through the 12 labors story because they don't like the labors or why Heracles had to do them. Instead (s)he/they insist that (s)he/they be allowed to make his/her/their own hero and run around doing whatever (s)he/they want rather than those 12 boring labors, and call that hero Heracles. The Kheldian, the energy being that merges with the player's character is Heracles, and the host character the player made now has the opportunity to experience Heracles' full array of powers and set forth to complete the 12 assigned labors. The player making the Kheldian does not want to use 2 of the Kheldian's 27 powers though because it hides their costume when not in their character's own body, but does still want to use them because those powers add yet more powers for free with extra benefits. The player does not care about the story of the Kheldian, just wants to run around calling himself/herself/themselves Kheldian. Well, if the shapeshifting powers are not acceptable, the Kheldian character can be played just as well without them, but no, the player insists on getting to use the Kheldian's shapeshifting without having to shapeshift. (S)he/they want the benefits of the shapeshifting, but not the actual shapeshifting. Again, the player does not care about the Kheldian's story despite making a Kheldian to play. And the player is not satisfied with the powers the Kheldian offers without having to shapeshift, even though the 4 powers the player wants already exists in the Kheldian's human form arsenal. And I am left here  wondering into what crazy wonderland I wandered into. Don't like the shapeshifting? Then don't use it. But the player wants to use it anyway, just change the power and its accompanying story to fit that player's concept. Forget why the EAT was even made in the first place, the added story and novelty of a shapeshifting AT means nothing. Just give the player access to 8 free powers and forget the rest, thank you kindly, now give me more enhancement slots for those free powers. Forget why those free powers are there, just change the EAT to suit what the player wants without regard for anything else.

 

And I went off on a bit of a rant. Sorry.

[ThatGuyCDude]

Regarding the "Epic" Lore requiring shapeshifting?  Shadowstar's missions don't mention it once.  The Nictus she has you fight for your Epic-Only missions never employ it.  The entire quest line never even touches forms, only bonding of host and Kheld.  ...Come to think of it, neither does Moonfire's taskforce!  I even skimmed through Sunstorm's contact dialogue (which is similar but slightly deviates from Shadowstar's) and he doesn't mention them either.  Forms don't seem to have much lore in the game itself outside of the power description, existing only as a gameplay mechanic.

What makes the Kheldians special as an archetype is the unique story element that a human has joined with an energy being from across the universe.  That doesn't change if some later-introduced armor set half-mimics the mechanics.  It continues to be cool even if the energy being only (OPTIONALLY) empowers your punches/blasts instead of transforming you into an alien memory (which--again--isn't even referenced in the signature, HEAT-only missions!).  Kheldians also play VERY differently from the substitute archetypes that have been pitched.  You can play them like a Blaster.  You can play them like a Tank.  But only Kheldians can do both *simultaneously*.

EDIT: Also, the claim that the human form has access to all the same powers is patently wrong.  While all the Nova powers have a human variant, the Dwarf powers only share two.  Warshade characters can't even punch somebody without resorting to Brawl or a pool power.

Edited August 9 by ThatGuyCDude

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

EDIT: Also, the claim that the human form has access to all the same powers is patently wrong.  While all the Nova powers have a human variant, the Dwarf powers only share two.  Warshade characters can't even punch somebody without resorting to Brawl or a pool power.

I was only referring to Nova. I've previously stated that Dwarf does not overlap. And the most spoken of form in this thread has been Nova. Didn't think I needed to re-stipulate that, but I admit I should have.

 

20 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Shadowstar's missions don't mention it once.  The Nictus she has you fight for your Epic-Only missions never employ it.  The entire quest line never even touches forms, only bonding of host and Kheld.  ...Come to think of it, neither does Moonfire's taskforce!  I even skimmed through Sunstorm's contact dialogue (which is similar but slightly deviates from Shadowstar's) and he doesn't mention them either.  Forms don't seem to have much lore in the game itself outside of the power description, existing only as a gameplay mechanic.

The shapeshifting is specifically called out when you go to first choose a Kheldian AT.

 

 

 

The shapeshifting powers themselves are not mandatory, so I don't see why they would need to be specifically addressed in the missions. Do the Kheldian missions tell you that they get stronger on a team? They tell you that you have solid HP? The epic part is the story. That is it. The shapeshifting part is unique to Kheldians. Only Kheldians have shapeshifting powers they can use in combat. Other ATs? Can hit up START for travel powers that shapeshift them, but they can't fight in it. So again, if a player doesn't want to shapeshift with their shapeshifting alien? Then don't. (Edit: They still have 25 other powers even before they tap pool powers to fill their 24 power slots. Go to town with those. Enjoy your character's costume. No shapeshifting required, and without it, their costume is never hidden away.)

 

Edited August 9 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

You are still misunderstanding me. So I'm going to try and clarify again. Heracles has specific powers/abilities. Heracles was required to perform 12 supposedly impossible labors as punishment. Someone says (s)he/they want to play through that. However, (s)he/they don't want to use Heracles' powers because it doesn't fit their concept of their character in that story. And they don't want to go through the 12 labors story because they don't like the labors or why Heracles had to do them. Instead (s)he/they insist that (s)he/they be allowed to make his/her/their own hero and run around doing whatever (s)he/they want rather than those 12 boring labors, and call that hero Heracles. The Kheldian, the energy being that merges with the player's character is Heracles, and the host character the player made now has the opportunity to experience Heracles' full array of powers and set forth to complete the 12 assigned labors. The player making the Kheldian does not want to use 2 of the Kheldian's 27 powers though because it hides their costume when not in their character's own body, but does still want to use them because those powers add yet more powers for free with extra benefits. The player does not care about the story of the Kheldian, just wants to run around calling himself/herself/themselves Kheldian. Well, if the shapeshifting powers are not acceptable, the Kheldian character can be played just as well without them, but no, the player insists on getting to use the Kheldian's shapeshifting without having to shapeshift. (S)he/they want the benefits of the shapeshifting, but not the actual shapeshifting. Again, the player does not care about the Kheldian's story despite making a Kheldian to play. And the player is not satisfied with the powers the Kheldian offers without having to shapeshift, even though the 4 powers the player wants already exists in the Kheldian's human form arsenal. And I am left here  wondering into what crazy wonderland I wandered into. Don't like the shapeshifting? Then don't use it. But the player wants to use it anyway, just change the power and its accompanying story to fit that player's concept. Forget why the EAT was even made in the first place, the added story and novelty of a shapeshifting AT means nothing. Just give the player access to 8 free powers and forget the rest, thank you kindly, now give me more enhancement slots for those free powers. Forget why those free powers are there, just change the EAT to suit what the player wants without regard for anything else.

That's still apples to oranges. Heracles is a single, signature figure. There are multiple Kheldians. You even work for one of them when you are a Kheldian yourself. I also haven't seen anyone mention avoiding playing the storyarcs but it's neither here nor there; the concerns with the arcs is finding where they explicitly outline how the forms work and look.

 

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't see why they would need to be specifically addressed in the missions.

Because people keep saying it's in the lore and others are sifting through the lore for where. In regards to your screenshot: I already posted how game UI flavor text is already directly contradicted by power customization options. It got hand-waived as not as important for any other powers even though it was multiple, direct examples.

Edited August 9 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

45 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

In regards to your screenshot: I already posted how game UI flavor text is already directly contradicted by power customization options. It got hand-waived as not as important for any other powers even though it was multiple, direct examples.

Because the core of those powers wasn't violated or ignored. As I already presented in my response to said post. To change the animations and give players alternate options for them is fine because it does not change the core aspect of the power. To change a power, like the OP is asking for, is not the same as asking for an alternate animation.

 

Edit: I've already been told by a GM not to argue for 4 pages again, so I'm stopping here. At least for a while. Let others beat their heads against this wall for a change.

 

Edited August 9 by Rudra

[Chris24601]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:43 PM, Rudra said:

To the best of my knowledge, there can't be a minimal FX version of Nova or Dwarf forms to maintain a human appearance, because those aren't just VFX. Those are complete model replacements. So basically, if you want to use Nova attacks and Dwarf attacks, and the human form already has those attacks, you are going to be limited to using human form if you want to maintain a human appearance.

Actually, back during Live during one of the updates until it was patched there was a glitch where a Kheldian would lose their form appearance, but kept all their stats.

 

The dwarf glitched to look absolutely normal and used the equivalent human animations. The nova glitched to the hover pose (couldn’t land or anything) and the eye beams shot from your eyes (without an animation) and the other blasts came out of your chest.

 

The point of mentioning this is that it proves there’s nothing locked to the actual form model. The default nova animations don’t work with human shapes, but powers can now have alternate animations completely with different effects (see the darkness noir options).

 

As power customization options* the only real issue is time needed to make it happen… that old glitch proves it’s possible at the technical level.
 

* This is a point all the “just don’t take forms” people seem to ignore. No one wants to take YOUR form models away. Others just want to not have to look at them in order to not be effectively nerfed.

 

** Also, since human form Khelds are things that exist in lore, a Kheldian who uses dwarf/nova powers in human form doesn’t break anything about the lore.

Edited August 9 by Chris24601

[Greycat]

18 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Regarding the "Epic" Lore requiring shapeshifting?  Shadowstar's missions don't mention it once.  The Nictus she has you fight for your Epic-Only missions never employ it.

 

Those missions were created *way* back when the AT and arcs were released in i3... when they couldn't/didn't have NPCs using the powers.

 

That's a game/dev/technical limitation from that time, not an argument against the lore. That's all. Later mobs, such as the PPD Awakened, do use it, because they figured out how to do so for an NPC. (And it still caused problems for a while after that.)

 

You want to see the lore, *someone* went through the trouble of compiling it and keeping it updated in a Kheldian backstory guide... it's even on the wiki from someone else copying it over.

[ValiantBlu]

On 8/9/2024 at 2:53 AM, ThatGuyCDude said:

Kheldians also play VERY differently from the substitute archetypes that have been pitched.  You can play them like a Blaster.  You can play them like a Tank.  But only Kheldians can do both *simultaneously*.

EDIT: Also, the claim that the human form has access to all the same powers is patently wrong.  While all the Nova powers have a human variant, the Dwarf powers only share two.  Warshade characters can't even punch somebody without resorting to Brawl or a pool power.

Just want to add on to this.

 

As one person said, skipping your forms makes slotting easier since you now have less powers to slot. This is valid, but I'd argue the opposite, as skipping forms gives you less options for slotting

For example:

Peacebringers have 3 ST ranged attacks, 2 AoE ranged attacks, 2 ST melee attacks and 2 AoE melee attacks in human form.

Taking Nova grants 2 additional ST ranged and 2 additional AoE ranged attacks

Taking Dwarf grants 2 additional ST melee and 1 additional AoE melee

You're robbing yourself of options by skipping either form

One option, since all of these attacks have -def, is to slot the human powers with -def sets while slotting nova powers with damage sets. Undermined defenses only takes 2 slots for +2% damage, which you can stack on up to 5 powers. Attacks like gleaming blast you could slot for -def on human form and proc out on nova. Heck, proc em both, one for damage procs and the other for CC procs.

 

Warshade's Sunless Mire has a much shorter cooldown in Dwarf form than in Human form

On top of being able to stack both buffs simultaneously due to being separate powers entirely with separate slots and cooldowns, it also provides you the option to skip human form's Sunless Mire altogether. Dwarf's version of the power has a 20s cooldown, 10s duration, versus Human form's 120s cooldown 20s duration, yet they both provide the exact same stat bonuses. Dwarf's Mire, base stats, has 50% uptime, whereas human form's is 17%. If you had to choose between Dwarf's Mire and Human's Mire it's no contest. It will cost you less resources (hasten, global cooldowns, recharge enh, etc) to get 100% uptime on Dwarf's Mire, and it comes with an additional 4 powers to play with.

 

"Just skip the forms" costs you a lot of build versatility and overall viability.

On 8/9/2024 at 6:52 PM, Chris24601 said:

Actually, back during Live during one of the updates until it was patched there was a glitch where a Kheldian would lose their form appearance, but kept all their stats.

 

The dwarf glitched to look absolutely normal and used the equivalent human animations. The nova glitched to the hover pose (couldn’t land or anything) and the eye beams shot from your eyes (without an animation) and the other blasts came out of your chest.

 

The point of mentioning this is that it proves there’s nothing locked to the actual form model. The default nova animations don’t work with human shapes, but powers can now have alternate animations completely with different effects (see the darkness noir options).

 

As power customization options* the only real issue is time needed to make it happen… that old glitch proves it’s possible at the technical level.

I was not aware of this thank you

 

So really the only questions I have after that are

1) Is it worth it (diverting resources from other changes/fixes/additions)

2) Does the community want it

3) If so, how best to implement

Edited August 11 by ValiantBlu

[Owl Girl]

the good thing about this suggestion is that "lore purists" wouldn't have to give up their standard forms, so their complaints can be safely ignored in favour of greater player autonomy and allowing people to put the focus on the aspects of their character that they choose. it wouldn't affect power balance or gameplay except possibly in the niche situation of pvp play.
there's just no reason to try and justify the change via lore arguments, because while the lore might be the reason *some* people play it's hardly the reason that *everyone* plays.

[ValiantBlu]

6 hours ago, Owl Girl said:

the good thing about this suggestion is that "lore purists" wouldn't have to give up their standard forms, so their complaints can be safely ignored in favour of greater player autonomy and allowing people to put the focus on the aspects of their character that they choose. it wouldn't affect power balance or gameplay except possibly in the niche situation of pvp play.
there's just no reason to try and justify the change via lore arguments, because while the lore might be the reason *some* people play it's hardly the reason that *everyone* plays.

I would argue that this makes no discernible difference in PvP

 

Granted Nova and Dwarf forms offer visual cues to players of how to approach you, however with the speed you can swap forms at you could always start in one form to bait one approach and then switch forms immediately anyways; reaction time doesn’t count for much here compared to other PvP games, so there’s not much reason to try and squeeze in big damage for the 5 frames you spend in nova. Plus with all the power customization already in game. Visual cues are pretty muddied in pvp to begin with. 

Edited August 11 by ValiantBlu

[Seed22]

On 8/7/2024 at 11:44 AM, Greycat said:

Don't like the forms, don't take the forms, "problem" solved.

Okay, and this shouldn’t even be a question or point of contention but this is CoH players we’re talking about and it IS unfortunately 2024.

 

Why is more options a problem for you?

 

And inb4 “but resources n devs” until they SAY they can’t or won’t, I don’t like to presume they can’t or won’t or that its an over the top request for em. Hell who knows they may be working on it now

Edited August 11 by Seed22

[Seed22]

This happens every single time this thread is made. The same two people come in here, have an aneurysm about lore, or balance(like they understand khelds lmao. there are only 4 people in this game who I trust to understand khelds. 4. they are not in this thread.) then derail the thread into arguing in circles. It's actually kind of concerning it happens with such certainty. I mean EVERY TIME?! You can't get that kind of consistency in most things in the real world!

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

This happens every single time this thread is made. The same two people come in here, have an aneurysm about lore, or balance(like they understand khelds lmao. there are only 4 people in this game who I trust to understand khelds. 4. they are not in this thread.) then derail the thread into arguing in circles. It's actually kind of concerning it happens with such certainty. I mean EVERY TIME?! You can't get that kind of consistency in most things in the real world!

I think the big contention is whether these "HEATs" can or should have their powers, (and respective appearances), divorced from said lore in favor of player desires for customization.  If you view them as simply an AT like any other, than of course you'll want to be able to make them look however you want, but if game lore trumps that, then you'd be against such a proposal.  Frankly, it's an intractable situation...

[ValiantBlu]

49 minutes ago, biostem said:

I think the big contention is whether these "HEATs" can or should have their powers, (and respective appearances), divorced from said lore in favor of player desires for customization.  If you view them as simply an AT like any other, than of course you'll want to be able to make them look however you want, but if game lore trumps that, then you'd be against such a proposal.  Frankly, it's an intractable situation...

So the issue with that statement is the fact no where in the lore does it say that kheldians *must* transform to achieve any level of power. 
 

however from a gameplay standpoint you are, necessarily, limiting yourself by not transforming. That’s not to say there are no viable human only builds for Kheldians, but you will never achieve your maximum damage output by ignoring one of your best damage buffs. You will never maximize your damage resistance by ignoring one of your best resistance buffs. Human only, necessarily, is a self imposed nerf. Full stop. Whether that nerf conflicts with your build goals is a personal matter that affects all players differently.
 

So arguments like “transforming is part of the lore…”

Where in the lore does it say I *must* transform to increase my damage or resistance? Where in the lore does it say I *must* transform into either a Nova or Dwarf? Maybe my Kheldian visited Betelgeuse and found a race of bird people known as Avias? Why can’t I still transform but edit the costume to look like this new race I just dreamt up. Who is to say that my character wasn’t already a teleporting super strength super hero at the time that he became this Kheldian’s host… maybe his human form just *is* as strong as Dwarf form. 
 

This isn’t an issue of there being any lore conflict. It’s logical fallacies and a complete lack of creativity being imposed on other players because they don’t agree with a potential cosmetic option that wouldn’t affect their own experience whatsoever. 

Edited August 11 by ValiantBlu

[biostem]

1 hour ago, ValiantBlu said:

So arguments like “transforming is part of the lore…”

Where in the lore does it say I *must* transform to increase my damage or resistance?

IIRC, nova and dwarf forms are a result of the kheldians, who are masters of manipulating energy, recalling the forms of previous hosts, who possessed great offensive and defensive properties, respectively.  If you care at all about that lore, then, yes, you *must* assume those forms to gain those properties.  If you don't then they are merely toggle powers that restrict you to a specific look and lock you out from accessing other powers.  Again, the crucial component here is whether *you* care about said lore...

[ValiantBlu]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

IIRC, nova and dwarf forms are a result of the kheldians, who are masters of manipulating energy, recalling the forms of previous hosts, who possessed great offensive and defensive properties, respectively.  If you care at all about that lore, then, yes, you *must* assume those forms to gain those properties.  If you don't then they are merely toggle powers that restrict you to a specific look and lock you out from accessing other powers.  Again, the crucial component here is whether *you* care about said lore...

Yes the lore states that they recall previous hosts with these properties, it does not say this is the only way for them to achieve these properties. You’re affirming the consequent which is a fallacy. 

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

Yes the lore states that they recall previous hosts with these properties, it does not say this is the only way for them to achieve these properties. You’re affirming the consequent which is a fallacy. 

Since neither you nor I are responsible for said lore, and in the 20-odd years that CoH has existed, no other method has been put forth, and since this is a fictional setting we are talking about, it is safe to assume that nova and dwarf are the only methods kheldians have available of attaining those effects.  If we were talking about a real life scenario, then I would agree with you...

[Laucianna]

I for one am fully for a more minimal FX option when it comes to Kheldians, not a complete deletion of the look of the forms but a way for you to still see your costume when in those forms and one of the best examples from Comic Books I can think of is Vixen, where it shows the form for a few moments as a more spectral version of it over your character.
 

I know @Greycat is extremely passionate about maintaining the lore of the Kheldians which is great, but if there is room to both adapt the lore and make a lot of people I do not see the issue. For instance if they added into something along the lines of:

"Whilst majority of Kheldians fully transform into their previous hosts to utilize those skills, there are some among them who briefly call upon the strength of previous hosts before containing that strength within their current hosts body."

That doesn't destroy the lore, it adds to it by giving the player the choice of how much of their previous hosts do they wish to embrace still, especially coming from a Warshade player who might feel shame upon looking at the previous hosts they had as a Nictus.


TLDR: This doesn't have to be a one or the other situation, you can find a middle ground to appease the majority ❤️ 

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

if there is room to both adapt the lore and make a lot of people I do not see the issue

It all depends upon whether you are a "lore purist", who only views what was specifically set by the OG devs as valid/legitimate.  If you do, then *any* significant change to that lore or how the powers/AT functions could be viewed as an unacceptable break from said lore, in which case, no explanation, regardless of how creative or fleshed-out it is, still violates what the devs wanted/intended.  If you don't fall into that category, then of course you'd want more options...

[ValiantBlu]

1 hour ago, Laucianna said:

I for one am fully for a more minimal FX option when it comes to Kheldians, not a complete deletion of the look of the forms but a way for you to still see your costume when in those forms and one of the best examples from Comic Books I can think of is Vixen, where it shows the form for a few moments as a more spectral version of it over your character.
 

I know @Greycat is extremely passionate about maintaining the lore of the Kheldians which is great, but if there is room to both adapt the lore and make a lot of people I do not see the issue. For instance if they added into something along the lines of:

"Whilst majority of Kheldians fully transform into their previous hosts to utilize those skills, there are some among them who briefly call upon the strength of previous hosts before containing that strength within their current hosts body."

That doesn't destroy the lore, it adds to it by giving the player the choice of how much of their previous hosts do they wish to embrace still, especially coming from a Warshade player who might feel shame upon looking at the previous hosts they had as a Nictus.


TLDR: This doesn't have to be a one or the other situation, you can find a middle ground to appease the majority ❤️ 

I Can actually see how this particular suggestion conflicts with the lore, much as I love the idea. Similar suggestions like having your character visible inside the form or hovering/mirroring behind you are also cool ideas but it’s the same problem. The lore says they transform, you’re not channeling the ghost of past novas you’re turning into one. 

 

in the case of minimal fx (or no visual transformation basically) since there’s no requirement to transform as a khledian, in lore or gameplay, we already see human only HEATs running around as is. The only difference is those same players could roll the same concepts without being limited in playstyle. ((I am in full support of adding this option as it does not conflict with lore))
 

In the case of editing the transformations to look any way you want, the lore lists the nova and dwarf forms as 2 previous races they’ve bonded with, but it doesn’t restrict them to only these 2… coming up with your own transformations doesn’t conflict with with the lore, that’s just creating your own backstory. ((I am in full support of adding this option as it does not conflict with lore))
 

with that said while I don’t support these ((middle ground)) changes that you’ve mentioned ((because they do conflict with the lore)) I’m also not specifically against them

Edited August 11 by ValiantBlu
Concern about clarity, edits in double parentheses

[Chris24601]

Question for the Lore Purists and needing forms for extra damage/tankiness…

 

Can Requiem, Arakhn, and Romulus (all Nictus; identical to Warshades in all but philosophy) inflict and take damage like an archvillain while remaining in human form?

 

If so (and it is), then your interpretation of the lore about needing the forms for firepower or resilience is just wrong.

[Ghost]

11 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Question for the Lore Purists and needing forms for extra damage/tankiness…

 

Can Requiem, Arakhn, and Romulus (all Nictus; identical to Warshades in all but philosophy) inflict and take damage like an archvillain while remaining in human form?

 

If so (and it is), then your interpretation of the lore about needing the forms for firepower or resilience is just wrong.

They would be even tougher if they decided to change forms.

 

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Question for the Lore Purists and needing forms for extra damage/tankiness…

 

Can Requiem, Arakhn, and Romulus (all Nictus; identical to Warshades in all but philosophy) inflict and take damage like an archvillain while remaining in human form?

 

If so (and it is), then your interpretation of the lore about needing the forms for firepower or resilience is just wrong.

So, just to be clear, because an opponent is an AV, that opponent should be able to take and inflict damage like an AV unless that AV is a Kheldian of some type, in which case they should only do AV damage in Nova form and only take AV damage in Dwarf form? How does that make any sense?