Minimal FX Kheld Forms

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Give it up @Rudra

Some players are determined to turn this into City of Generics.

Just let the thread die and disappear.

 

Makes me almost glad the other EATs that got dropped didn't get made.

 

If we're going to keep de-Khelding the Khelds, might as well roll the Coming Storm through, use them all as intergalactic Energizers and delete the ATs and associated story arcs. (Almost nobody else seems to give a damn about the lore they're tied to anyway.)

[megaericzero]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

What does this mean? Let's go with 'just keep my current appearance'. The Nova and Dwarf shapeshift powers are changed so that they grant the player the ability to either use the Nova/Dwarf form or their current character model, and no other choices. In the case of Nova, now the associated attacks for the Nova form have to make a different call, automatically, to use humanoid animations instead of hovering squid animations, but only if the Bright Nova/Dark Nova power is assigned by the player to not replace their character model. Otherwise, the 4 attacks have to still use their normal animations for being a non-humanoid character model. And those attacks have to do so without added player input for form/appearance. Even when the form itself glitched and Nova didn't transform the character as someone earlier said, the animations for the Nova's powers did not line up with the character model being used because they were the wrong animations. So the emanation points didn't connect correctly with the character model.

Based on my understanding of what's on COD, powers can be made to redirect based on given criteria. For instance, snipes and assassin's strikes redirect to snipe_normal/snipe_quick or assassin_strike_stealth/assassin_strike_quick based on a check that the power button in your tray performs when activated, with the redirected version of the power being the one that actually does something.

 

You could, theoretically, add an option to Null the Gull that - based on how people have described him granting invisible powers that add flags to your character - tags you as "stayHumanoid" and then update the nova and dwarf powers (both the toggles and their attacks) into redirects that go to nova_power_classic/nova_power_human and dwarf_power_classic/dwarf_power_human. Heck, the dwarf attacks don't seem to even need redirects; just the two toggles and the four nova animations. (This is assuming "remain human" is the only option. I can't speak on custom forms, which would significantly complicate things, so I'm writing under the assumption that those are not an option and only classic vs "minimal" exist.)

 

Yeah, sure, this further divorces the implementation from power customization but I'm honestly not worried; it still retains the heart of the idea.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

This is not a couple animation tweaks. This is a power code change. And an extensive one at that.

SCR goes both ways. We don't know how hard or easy something could be unless we're told by someone who knows better.

Edited August 14 by megaericzero

[Super Atom]

Formless Kheldians would be cool, surely opens a lot of character concepts up for roleplayers without hurting much of anything. It might be a bit awkward to look at though- still needing to use the form buttons and the weird pauses in-between attacks, but if someone is ok with dealing with it, why not?

[Owl Girl]

I've changed my mind. I also now believe people should be unable to enjoy things in their own way, and we should in fact delete the things that people don't appreciate in my (correct) way.  devs please erase kheldians due to player base being insufficiently committed to role-playing within the confines of the established and possibly incomplete lore parameters. Also we should punish people that put salsa on crackers, that's not the way i eat them.

Edited August 14 by Owl Girl
Removed opinions inconsistent with established lore.

[Bionic_Flea]

Down with owls!  Up with Fleas!

[Owl Girl]

can't a Girl change her mind without upsetting parasites?!

[ValiantBlu]

On 8/7/2024 at 6:09 PM, ValiantBlu said:

TL;DR

Balance this shit so it's balanced, not so it's ugly

If the only thing keeping the class balanced is the necessary OP abilities are too ugly for most people to pick, that's not a balance choice, that's just a really bad design choice

Been thinking about this comment I made a lot over the past few days

Wildly disrespectful to the original dev team and honestly not authentic, just frustrated

 

To be clear, I mained a Peacebringer on Live, and the first time I unlocked the AT, back in 2006, I thought they were so cool the very first time I used the forms, and honestly still do

I just get tired of not seeing my costume, which is why I ended up going with a human only PB. Love the aesthetic of the light powers but after spending so much time at the tailor to only see it when I'm hanging out in Atlas Park feels bad

But at the same time, I always missed using the forms and what they do functionally

 

Up to this point I'd only ever mained damaged classes in every game I played

White Dwarf is honestly what I always consider to be what lead me to my love of tanks and it was shortly after switching to human-only that I rolled my first tanker in CoH, (invul/energy)

 

The point I'm trying to get at is, from the start it was the forms that drew me in because they were cool

And probably a big reason why I don't main Kheldians anymore is because the excitement of transforming into a squid/lobster alien wore off within about 2 months of my first one... it's been 18 years since then

[ScarySai]

18 hours ago, Greycat said:

If we're going to keep de-Khelding the Khelds

 

You're still shapeshifting, at the very least people would stop kneecapping their builds to see their own costume.

 

If this is a lore concern, it's an invalid one. The shapeshifting ball of light that takes forms based on prior hosts taking the form of it's current host when shooting light or punching people really isn't infringing on the kheldian identity.

 

I would prefer we take the jojo stand approach if we go down this path, as I love that kinda cool thing, but minfx is -fine- for the people who want it, I'm more offended by the fact human only builds are terrible than anything related to not turning yourself into a squid.

 

Though, honestly, it is a very annoying trend that whenever khelds have any form of change suggested for them, someone who isn't a noteworthy kheld player takes it upon themselves to slap it down and derail the whole thing based off of nothing.

Edited August 15 by ScarySai

[Owl Girl]

how other people want to play is really none of my business. i can't imagine inventing nonexistent problems to assert control over how another person wants to portray thier own character!

 

i guess Owls are just too humble for that sorta conduct ❤️

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Owl Girl said:

how other people want to play is really none of my business. i can't imagine inventing nonexistent problems to assert control over how another person wants to portray thier own character!

I think it boils down to a matter of perspective - do you view this "HEAT" as tied to the lore first, or does how YOU view or treat them trump that?  Should a player's desire for customization override game lore and mechanics?  If so, is there some line or limit at which we say "no, you don't get to change things *that* much"?

 

From my perspective, the answer is simple - don't take Nova or Dwarf if you don't want to assume their respective appearances...

[ScarySai]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

I think it boils down to a matter of perspective - do you view this "HEAT" as tied to the lore first, or does how YOU view or treat them trump that?  Should a player's desire for customization override game lore and mechanics?  If so, is there some line or limit at which we say "no, you don't get to change things *that* much"?

 

The lore isn't compromised by this solution, the game even supports this solution due to the fact that every single form power has a human variant.

 

It's intellectually dishonest to keep insisting there's a lore conflict when there clearly isn't.

Edited August 15 by ScarySai

[biostem]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

The lore isn't compromised by this solution, the game even supports this solution due to the fact that every single form power has a human variant.

 

It's intellectually dishonest to keep insisting it's a lore argument when it clearly isn't.

Then use those powers.  Problem solved.  What you really want is all the benefits of Nova & Dwarf with none of the drawbacks.  And, yes, the appearance *is* part of the lore...

Edited August 15 by biostem

[ScarySai]

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

Then use those powers.  Problem solved.

 

Let people minfx using the same powers, "problem solved."

 

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

What you really want is all the benefits of Nova & Dwarf with none of the drawbacks.

 

If you actually played Kheld, you wouldn't have said this to me.

 

Anyway, as the suggestion currently stands: You would still be shapeshifting from a game mechanic standpoint, so this is false. The difference would potentially be purely cosmetic, though I imagine there would be other changes happening at the same time as this being worked on, so the mechanics themselves might change for QoL purposes, depending on what they do.

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

And, yes, the appearance *is* part of the lore

 

It is, but that very same lore also justifies minfx forms, so it's a moot point.

 

Like, come on guys, we do this every time someone asks for this, and your objections have zero weight, can you just not?

Edited August 15 by ScarySai

[Indystruck]

MinFX for forms is worth it just because then I can make my own alien costume forms and say that those are the forms my Kheldian absorbed.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

Let people minfx using the same powers, "problem solved."

Fundamentally changing a lore-based AT is not "problem solved".

 

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

If you actually played Kheld, you wouldn't have said this to me.

I have many Khelds, so maybe don't make assumptions you can't back-up.

 

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Anyway, as the suggestion currently stands: You would still be shapeshifting from a game mechanic standpoint, so this is false. The difference would potentially be purely cosmetic, though I imagine there would be other changes happening at the same time as this being worked on, so the mechanics themselves might change for QoL purposes, depending on what they do.

Or... get this... don't play an AT with a fundamental shape-changing mechanic, if you don't want to change shape.

 

4 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

It is

Not but, then... if changing one's shape is part of the AT's lore, then either take those powers or don't.

[Seed22]

7 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

MinFX for forms is worth it just because then I can make my own alien costume forms and say that those are the forms my Kheldian absorbed.

Yeah wouldn’t that be neat. 
 

[Videra]

Oh god. It's happening again.

 

Just remove Kheldians at this point, tbh.

[ScarySai]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

I have many Khelds, so maybe don't make assumptions you can't back-up.

 

Forms don't have downsides, so that was a very puzzling thing to say to me.

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Fundamentally changing a lore-based AT is not "problem solved".

 

It's a purely cosmetic change that does not infringe on the lore whatsoever.  If you can cite the lore that does so, please do. Otherwise, stop lying to people.

 

You wanna insist on that, feel free to PM me, otherwise we're gonna hard derail, and I'm stopping that now.

[biostem]

Just now, Seed22 said:

Yeah wouldn’t that be neat. 

You can do this already, with other ATs - I've even created multiple characters with this exact schtick.  We are talking about a very specific archetype with very specific in-game lore behind them.

[Greycat]

9 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

MinFX for forms is worth it just because then I can make my own alien costume forms and say that those are the forms my Kheldian absorbed.

 

Then set it so you *must* burn a costume slot for each, and said costume slots must be significantly different from your human form.

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

It's a purely cosmetic change that does not infringe on the lore whatsoever.  If you can cite the lore that does so, please do. Otherwise, stop lying to people

Thats the thing: NONE OF THEM EVER CAN. They are simply pulling this up from..nowhere. Thats just it. Nowhere.

[Indystruck]

Just now, Greycat said:

 

Then set it so you *must* burn a costume slot for each, and said costume slots must be significantly different from your human form.

 

I would absolutely do it, especially if they found a way to put the transparency + aura on those costumes to help it along.

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

You can do this already, with other ATs - I've even created multiple characters with this exact schtick.  We are talking about a very specific archetype with very specific in-game lore behind them.

I have a WS and PB at 50+1 triform. Cite that shit in the lore or please stop quoting me thank you

[biostem]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

Forms don't have downsides, so that was a very puzzling thing to say to me.

Locking out most of your other powers *is* a pretty significant downside.  Now who doesn't appear to have played them?

 

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

It's a purely cosmetic change that does not infringe on the lore whatsoever.  If you can cite the lore that does so, please do. Otherwise, stop lying to people.

You seem to be interpreting lore in a very literal way.  "Lore" also includes developer intent and implementation.  Kheldians were introduced in 2005, and in the 7 years before the game shut down, their forms were never changed, even though power customization was implemented long before.  This means that the devs, who were fully capable of doing so, never provided such options.

[Indystruck]

Actually, much like before we got power customization to the level we got them, they described the process of changing the Kheldian forms around as a living nightmare.