A treatise on Leading LoF leagues and why I won't be leading them anymore

[DarkRevelation]

4 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

It took years to get that Hamidon strategy down to a simple, anyone can do it series of commands. It still took years of time to perfect so that players can run it in 30 minutes to an hour. Giant Monsters were actually designed for multiple 8 person teams when they were originally released in to Hazard Zones before they could be soloed in minutes. The strategies for the Minotaur are in their impetus and will continue to be refined as the community finds more efficient ways to defeat it and take advantage of the rewards in the zone. As I said in my first reply to this thread, the Minotaur is not the conclusion of this zone, it's just one of enemies that provide a reward to players while they're in the zone. Fogs drop Reward Merits too! 

 

Having been on a Minotaur defeat yesterday where 3 players knew what they were doing and the other 6 were new, and being even Level Shifted with the Minotaur, I'd say that's pretty indicative of where the strategy is headed since it's already so easy to do. These were pick up teammates, not a coordinated effort in advance. It took 30 minutes to explain how the zone worked and what needed done. Then we did it. Now those new to the zone players will understand next time and it will go even faster. Do you understand now?

 

 

 

Yes, I understand that you were in a 'raid' of nine people, in a brand new zone/encounter in a game that doesn't get new zones/encounters very often, which killed the Minotaur. Now stop and ask yourself why were there only nine people in that raid? Low pop server? Maybe, but enough to dampen the excitement of a new zone/encounter? I doubt it. We run the only organized Lab runs on our server right now, and the most we can get is just under three teams. That is with us only running it once a week. Why? It should be packed with people trying this out, but it isn't. This is why:

 

 

53 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Honestly I think it's the non unique rewards holding it back after the initial shine has worn off.  You would hardly see anyone run a 4star Aeon until they added all those PAPs and adjusted the rewards.  Which if I wanted those kinds of rewards atm I'd rather run one of those or a Apex/Tin Mage.  

 

Not everyone cares much for badges or costume overlays.  I still think there should have been a new event enhancement set some kind of universal damage or a universal armor set that you could only get through redeeming labyrinth merits for kills to a vendor there.

 

It was neat the one time I went, there's better things to do with my time in game.  

 

 

Let me post that last line again so it sinks in:

It was neat the one time I went, there's better things to do with my time in game.

 

Over, over and over this is what we hear from people about the zone. When asked what people thought about the Minotaur/Lab this is what we get. They'd rather run something they have run a thousand times before than do this new encounter because it simply isn't worth the investment of their time. They will run something that benefits them more. Again the cost vs reward ratio is not adequate as it stands right now. I'm sure they can pull numbers on the zone and see that people are just not using it. The word is out that it isn't worth it and people are staying away, save to get the badges and move on. 

 

@Glacier Peak the rewards may be fine for you, and may be fine for some others, but it doesn't matter if you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and loudly say 'THE REWARDS ARE FINE FOR THE MINOTAUR AND THE LAB' as many times as you want, the numbers in the raids do not lie. We are lucky to get twenty at one time doing it only once a week. The same thing was brought up while it was on the test server. It's neat, but not worth my time. 

 

Do you understand now? Regardless of your feelings there is a prevailing attitude amongst the player base that this isn't worth their time. Keep championing that this is fine, enjoy your 'raids' of nine people and watch them slowly dwindle away. The numbers do not lie; most people are not using the zone outside of badges. It isn't worth their time. See how many people show up to your 'raid' once the Halloween event starts. People will be biting/kicking/scratching to get in one of the multiple full raids going, because THAT is worth their time.  I really like this zone and want to see people using it, but I can't sell how cool it is to a lot of people. I need help in the form of meaningful rewards or it will wither and die, if it hasn't already. 

[arcane]

I sincerely think people just don’t understand the monetary value of Aethers vs Merits.

[Glacier Peak]

25 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

Yes, I understand that you were in a 'raid' of nine people, in a brand new zone/encounter in a game that doesn't get new zones/encounters very often, which killed the Minotaur. Now stop and ask yourself why were there only nine people in that raid? Low pop server? Maybe, but enough to dampen the excitement of a new zone/encounter? I doubt it. We run the only organized Lab runs on our server right now, and the most we can get is just under three teams. That is with us only running it once a week. Why? It should be packed with people trying this out, but it isn't. 

There were nine people in the raid because that is the reality of Indomitable in the early hours of the day. We also run them in the evenings and as pick-up events. I see players in the zone and I say let's do this. Then we do it. Reading in to why things are the way they are without having the data that the developers see is speculative, so I won't begin to guess why things are the way they are. All I can say is to please join me on Indomitable and experience it the way I am describing. 

 

28 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

Let me post that last line again so it sinks in:

It was neat the one time I went, there's better things to do with my time in game.

 

Over, over and over this is what we hear from people about the zone. When asked what people thought about the Minotaur/Lab this is what we get. They'd rather run something they have run a thousand times before than do this new encounter because it simply isn't worth the investment of their time. They will run something that benefits them more. Again the cost vs reward ratio is not adequate as it stands right now. I'm sure they can pull numbers on the zone and see that people are just not using it. The word is out that it isn't worth it and people are staying away, save to get the badges and move on. 

I don't see this on Indomitable, but I won't discount your experience and say it doesn't happen. 

 

29 minutes ago, DarkRevelation said:

@Glacier Peak the rewards may be fine for you, and may be fine for some others, but it doesn't matter if you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and loudly say 'THE REWARDS ARE FINE FOR THE MINOTAUR AND THE LAB' as many times as you want, the numbers in the raids do not lie. We are lucky to get twenty at one time doing it only once a week. The same thing was brought up while it was on the test server. It's neat, but not worth my time. 

 

Do you understand now? Regardless of your feelings there is a prevailing attitude amongst the player base that this isn't worth their time. Keep championing that this is fine, enjoy your 'raids' of nine people and watch them slowly dwindle away. The numbers do not lie; most people are not using the zone outside of badges. It isn't worth their time. See how many people show up to your 'raid' once the Halloween event starts. People will be biting/kicking/scratching to get in one of the multiple full raids going, because THAT is worth their time.  I really like this zone and want to see people using it, but I can't sell how cool it is to a lot of people. I need help in the form of meaningful rewards or it will wither and die, if it hasn't already. 

I'll tell you what doesn't matter - players can sing praise to the developer who made the zone or castigate them as out of touch, but at the end of the day, they decide what the reward values are and whether they need changed. And seeing as how the developer has spoken on this top in this very thread, I'll defer you to their post and conclude my banter on the topic of rewards. There are daily Labyrinth raids on Indomitable, the least populated server, almost a month later after the Page was released. Whether that is a honeymoon period or players enjoy the content and like running it, I couldn't conclude which without seeing player data.

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I sincerely think people just don’t understand the monetary value of Aethers vs Merits.

 

I can run a 4star Aeon or Lady Grey in the time it takes to build a league and enough level shifts to be ready to take on the Minotaur.  Are you telling me the rewards from Labyrinth are anywhere as good as 30 Aethers, tons of Merits, Incarnate Salvage, AND a chance at a unique 400 mil enhancement?  Or how quickly you can run a Tinpex or log in to mooch a Hamidon?

Edited August 18 by Mezmera

[arcane]

15 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

I can run a 4star Aeon or Lady Grey in the time it takes to build a league and enough level shifts to be ready to take on the Minotaur.  Are you telling me the rewards from Labyrinth are anywhere as good as 30 Aethers, tons of Merits, Incarnate Salvage, AND a chance at a unique 400 mil enhancement?  Or how quickly you can run a Tinpex or log in to mooch a Hamidon?

Completely unfair comparison. On Excelsior, you have to be a part of 1 of 2 or 3 Discord channels to have daily access to easily completed 4* TF’s. And the absolute worst people in the game are active on those discord channels.

 

Labyrinth is easily joined and completed from the LFG channel without exposing one’s self to the dickheads you get on those 4* running discord servers.

 

Acting like just anyone can summon a competent and speedy 4* team from thin air reeks of elitism. 

Edited August 18 by arcane

[Mezmera]

Just now, arcane said:

Completely unfair comparison. On Excelsior, you have to be a part of 1 of 2 or 3 Discord channels to have daily access to easily completed 4* TF’s. And the absolute worst people in the game are active on those discord channels.

 

Labyrinth is easily joined and completed from the LFG channel without exposing one’s self to the dickheads you get on those 4* running discord servers.

 

When they upped the rewards for Aeon I was able to put together pug Aeons a lot more frequently, calling barriers through chat with a few people I trusted on Incan and getting them done in 50ish minutes, this was before anyone had much experience.  Lots of these pugs ended up joining in to form these "toxic" discords.    

 

Discord allows for better coordination of events and in game play and to be able to hold someone slacking off to account better than someone you just pick up from LFG.  If there wasn't the juicy carrot added these communities wouldn't have sprung up as they had.  

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

 

When they upped the rewards for Aeon I was able to put together pug Aeons a lot more frequently, calling barriers through chat with a few people I trusted on Incan and getting them done in 50ish minutes, this was before anyone had much experience.  Lots of these pugs ended up joining in to form these "toxic" discords.    

 

Discord allows for better coordination of events and in game play and to be able to hold someone slacking off to account better than someone you just pick up from LFG.  If there wasn't the juicy carrot added these communities wouldn't have sprung up as they had.  

I use Discord too. I would just prefer to open a vein before joining *those* servers.

[Projector]

I just want to start by saying that @Mezmerais wrong. Not because anything he said is factually wrong. It's just because it's Mez. 😄

Second, I want to highlight something that I think is leading to the chaos: It lacks a clear, consistent, and satisfying sense of progression.
 

The Labyrinth doesn't end when the Mino dies, but there is nothing that really tells you that there's more. If anything, the only thing you see immediately is a reward table, and reward tables in this game almost universally signal the "end" of content, with this being the only exception I can think of.  I still have never seen the portal that opens up where Mino is defeated because it's covered by the whole league/lores, even with /noparticles 1 set. I only ever found out it was there because someone told me, and I've gone through it only by guessing lol.
 

Even MSR has a sense of progression. Pylons>Bombs>GM>Kill until shield resets. There is clearly more to the MSR after beating up the aliens on the ship after Ukon dies because 1. There is no reward table. 2. there is a timer that actually increases once you take him down. 3. Mobs continually spawn and respawn and this is visible and immediately actionable. And if someone doesn't know this, the confusion is simple to remedy: stay put and fight enemies in the bowl. It's quick to remedy and easy to understand.

Hami raids also have progression. Kill Monsters for EoE and to spawn hami>Kill Hami>Reward Table>Repeat. Abyss/Eden have the element of random incans, but you still are grounded by map position, so the whiplash isn't as harsh. Plus, if someone forgets to incan, the league can easily see Monsters near by and continue killing and it's easy to help those not on the league find where the league is so they can participate. It happens all the time if an incanner doesn't see chat at the right time.

I also recognize there's a bias toward the idea of progression for the other zone events have player instructions/tactical contributions have contributed to that sense of progression being made clear to players, but I submit also that the "next steps" are far less burdensome to explain and navigate people through, and if someone misses something, like an EoE, it's not like we have to send someone back up somewhere to help them get it. We can solve that immediately.
 

But in the Labyrinth, it is a repeated case of "Okay, now what?" with no indicator of what to do next.

• "We killed the mobs here, now what?" We wait until an incanner finds a random spot elsewhere that 2-3 mobs have spawned in. But also, those mobs get deleted once our level shifts are above 5, reducing the challenge and the rewards. Admittedly, this one is an assumption. I haven't actually looked at the exp rewards when mobs turn grey because I'm usually hunting Malfos. (EDIT 2: Thanks @lemming for confirming level shifts do not affect rewards! Leaving the statement for intellectual honesty, but rewards do not actually reduce at all)

 

• "We killed Mino, now what?" You don't even know you can't get all seven motes until you kill Mino (or someone tells you) because the orange area is hidden until then. And the timer is a countdown UNTIL something happens, rather than being a indicator of how long you have to continue an action, like it works in an MSR. 

There's no sense of map- or movement-based progression because you can't see yourself progressing through a map. If I'm lost anywhere else in the game, there are hints that tell me where to go, such as Fog of War still hiding unexplored areas (unless I was stupid and hit reveal on those crey lab maps that have the three elevators on the same floor. IYKYK).

The mote progression also isn't linear, which is convenient, but also makes it a constant game of "wait, which one don't I have yet?" and then when you do have them, there's no message or anything that gives a hint or clue of where you are supposed to go. Even a riddle or poem about the black/white portal could thematically work here, idk. 

That ongoing feedback of progress that reinforces player behavior and rewards them for actions they take, even if it's just a dopamine hit, just isn't there. If I'm killing mobs with the league, once a mob dies, everyone just...stands there, at least until an incanner finds a new mob.

The only progression-based feedback I see is if you are off hunting Malfos, but the very heavy trade-off is it gives players a very disconnected feel from a zone-wide league event. I can't see my league get stronger, I can't see them empowered to do anything, and I just keep hunting until 10. It's solo play while being listed in a league, but ignoring everything the league is doing. So, the limited sense of progression isn't unifying. 

I also don't know what to do with feeling that way. I don't know what the solution is, but I at least think that the topic of progression feel should be included in the conversation.

While I'm here I'll share that when I first heard about the Labyrinth, I had presumed it would be more like a roguelite, where the progression through the labyrinth was linear, but also repetitive. The idea of the Mino chasing us had me picturing those sidescrolling/platform games where you have to outrun a flood or some other thing that is chasing you down and if you get stuck on an enemy or can't get to the next platform fast enough, you die. If the league wipes, you start again at the beginning or go to Zone 2, just like when you fail a Hami raid lol.

It would be cool if this were the case, and then fogs could spawn along that linear path as you are killing enemies. If you miss a fog, there's no backtracking since the minotaur is chasing, and there would be this constant sense of impending doom, kind of like what you get when Hami is taking just a little too long to kill and the triple and quad blooms are hitting. 

I also wish it was easier to stay in a specific color. Like, I wish that when I go to green, any doors I click would also be green, and if I click blue, I stay in blue. And maybe there could be predetermined portal locations in each color's maps that take you to the "next" color or the color of your choice (just depending). Maybe the portals would be linearly connected (blue only goes to green, green only goes to red or back to blue, red only goes to yellow or back to green, etc.). Each color's maps would have multiple portals to the next color, so you could still jump at any time, and you have an "oh shit" button if the minotaur is about to catch your league, with the trade-off being that you forfeit any Malfos that you would have missed in the prior color since you leave it early, (while FtF allows players who mistakenly take a portal to rejoin their team.) Idk, this all would require a fundamental rework of the content though, but since I'm spitballing already....

You would still have to kill enemies along the way, and do so fast before the minotaur catches the league, and the enemies you kill could spawn Malfos up ahead at a TBD spawn chance/rate. Or maybe when you defeat the Mino and he is on cooldown, the portals work like the train does and gives the player a list of all of the color zones plus adds Orange, the Colonnade, and the Core until the timer resets and the mino respawns. Though, Orange doesn't seem to hold much purpose aside from containing a mote and being a secret area.

If you do nothing but kill enemies and ignore Malfos all the way to the end, you could still predetermine the rewards for the spawns so that you always have enough level shifts to fight the minotaur if you've killed along the way, rather than making it to the end and just being killed because you didn't get enough Malfos. If you leave a color "early," that would raise the importance of killing Malfos, since you now won't have encountered enough mobs to get your level shifts.

Right now, it feels more like a random and aimless assortment of mission maps (which, I know a randomizer was used to determine map order, so this is partially intended). This could also make it so the endless colonnade could be located at the "end" of some of the colored maps, being a "reward" for making it to the end. So maybe there's one access point at the halfway color and one access point at the end. If you get the level shifts needed for Mino, you can defeat him and continue progressing the labyrinth to the end. At the moment, there is no sense of "I conquered this area or piece, and now onto the next."

A real labyrinth has a linear path that takes you from start to end, obviously with dead ends being the consequence of a wrong turn. Since wrong turns aren't as easily implemented here, the consequence for alternate pathing could be skipping colors all together. But navigating the zone currently feels like I'm just walking around in circles. There's no sense of direction unless you start memorizing door orders.

That would also feel more linear and would give a sense of progression to conquering the Labyrinth (even though I understand the real "labyrinth" is the Collonnade.)

Lastly, none of this is to take away from the immense amount of work Cobalt and others have put into this. I love that new content is being added, invested in, and is trying to be inclusive of the wider player-base. I can't be thankful enough for more content to explore with people and more things being added to this wonderful relic of a game. I'm forever grateful for everything we have here 🙂 

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk!

EDIT: Grammar/spelling

Edited August 19 by Projector

[lemming]

5 hours ago, Projector said:

"We killed the mobs here, now what?" We wait until an incanner finds a random spot elsewhere that 2-3 mobs have spawned in. But also, those mobs get deleted once our level shifts are above 5, reducing the challenge and the rewards. Admittedly, this  oneis an assumption. I haven't actually looked at the exp rewards when mobs turn grey because I'm usually hunting Malfos.

They are still level 54 mobs for experience purpose vs your level 50.    The level shifts do not effect rewards.

[Projector]

48 minutes ago, lemming said:

They are still level 54 mobs for experience purpose vs your level 50.    The level shifts do not effect rewards.

Updated in the my reply! Thank you!!

[golstat2003]

On 8/17/2024 at 12:20 PM, Lunar Ronin said:

The real issue is that the rewards for Hamidon raids should have been cut in half years ago.  Trying to compare anything else to them is folly.

 

Ehhh I don't necessarily agree with this. Leading a Hamidon raid is much more complicated than leading an LOF. There are specific roles needed for Hami. You can't say the same for LOF, at all.

 

But I'll leave it to the Hami raid leaders to explain if any of them wish to chime in.

[golstat2003]

On 8/17/2024 at 4:07 PM, ThatGuyCDude said:

I totally get your frustration.  I wasn't even league lead and I was running into the same problems: people kept popping in needing "Blue" or "Purple" or "White" motes and I'd have to stealth back to each spot to fill them in, only to make a last call and then hear somebody else say "Hey, I need <color> mote".  It was especially annoying with Purple because I'd specify that they need to activate flight before coming to me, they wouldn't, they'd plummet into the mob of enemies below that I wasn't able to clear alone, and then perish.  A wider range of enemy-proofing around the motes would be greatly appreciated, especially the Orange one which is always a hot teleport.

 

For this one I'd move purple to the ground and not require flight. The problem is not eveyrone takes flight or has the jetpack you get at level 3, by the time you are 50. And if you leave the labyrinth all progress on collecting them goes poof. I wold bet a majority of players will never know that they need a jetpack for the one mote and thus won't come prepared ahead of time. 

 

So either remove all mobs around the motes (as others have suggested) or put the purple one in a place that doesn't need flfight.

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, arcane said:

I sincerely think people just don’t understand the monetary value of Aethers vs Merits.

 

Or they can just run Hamidon and get 80+ reward mertis and convert those to converters and get way more than anything (influence wise) they can earn from the LOF. I can make more from Mertis than anything from Aethers. Easily.

 

It just means knowing how to use the Mertis to Converter and AH tools. Rewards Merits will always be greater than Aethers as a reward just for this reason.

 

I'd bet I'm not the only player who feels this way.

 

EDIT: The Aethers are great for quickly getting the costumes they were built for no doubt. But if you don't care for farming for those, then Reward Mertis as a reward will be greater. The greatest one time reward for that is Hamidon or Hard Mode TFs/SFs.

Edited August 19 by golstat2003

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

It just means knowing how to use the Mertis to Converter and AH tools. Rewards Merits will always be greater than Aethers as a reward just for this reason.

 

80 merits = 240 converters

 

240 converters * 65k inf on the market = 15.6m inf

 

8 Prismatic Aether * 2.5m inf = 20m inf

 

The rewards are pretty close. And 8 Prismatic Aether will sell a lot faster that 240 converters.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

80 merits = 240 converters

 

240 converters * 65k inf on the market = 15.6m inf

 

8 Prismatic Aether * 2.5m inf = 20m inf

 

The rewards are pretty close. And 8 Prismatic Aether will sell a lot faster that 240 converters.

Thats actually using your merits wrong. Doing it the correct way yields more than aether. Like a LOT more.

 

*Edit: I never will understand why people sell converters. I mean, the hint to massive wealth is in the name; CONVERTERS. Enhancement Converters to be more specific. 
 

It can’t get more straight forward than that imo.

Edited August 19 by Seed22

[Laucianna]

9 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Ehhh I don't necessarily agree with this. Leading a Hamidon raid is much more complicated than leading an LOF. There are specific roles needed for Hami. You can't say the same for LOF, at all.

 

But I'll leave it to the Hami raid leaders to explain if any of them wish to chime in.

As someone who runs both, Labyrinth is far easier to run mainly due to two factors for me, Lores and scaling difficulty with league size, I am certain a bunch of any ATs with lores can take on Labyrinth, hell if an instanced version comes out I will be trying a Kheldian one. But there is no way you can get away with that for a Hamidon raid 😄 I've said my opinions earlier but to me LoF is a fun new piece of content with a unique way of playing, good rewards, tons of lore, and easy to fill for, which to me makes it a great piece of additional content even if it is not some peoples cup of tea ❤️

[Projector]

 

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

As someone who runs both, Labyrinth is far easier to run mainly due to two factors for me, Lores and scaling difficulty with league size, I am certain a bunch of any ATs with lores can take on Labyrinth, hell if an instanced version comes out I will be trying a Kheldian one. But there is no way you can get away with that for a Hamidon raid 😄 I've said my opinions earlier but to me LoF is a fun new piece of content with a unique way of playing, good rewards, tons of lore, and easy to fill for, which to me makes it a great piece of additional content even if it is not some peoples cup of tea ❤️

I think this is a MAJOR strength of the Labyrinth that doesn't get appreciated enough--how easily you can just go do one with a pre-made group! It's really cool that there is now a zone raid event that a supergroup can just get together some people for and go do. When Sovereign does Hami Raids and MSRs, there's often still 20-30 minutes of recruiting. It's awesome that if you can get enough people for an iTrial, you have enough people to do a Lab run, and that you can recruit while you're getting started with the run (provided that the Mino hasn't been defeated in the last hour, of course).

It won't surprise me to eventually see an player-developed approach to Labyrinth that is somewhat like Hami Raids in that Team 1 usually has a specific setup and is closer to a "premade" team while the rest of the league fills with the general player base.

[arcane]

7 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Thats actually using your merits wrong. Doing it the correct way yields more than aether. Like a LOT more.

 

*Edit: I never will understand why people sell converters. I mean, the hint to massive wealth is in the name; CONVERTERS. Enhancement Converters to be more specific. 
 

It can’t get more straight forward than that imo.

If you want to be a stickler about that, you could just as easily sell the Prismatics, buy Converters, and proceed from there with your marketeering scheme.

 

Minotaur rewards easily match Hamidon rewards and there’s no way around that.

[noket]

On 8/18/2024 at 9:38 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

I'll check on this... That bonus was working at one point, but last time I verified that was before it went to test.

I have noticed that xp for each entity depends strictly on how much you hit each one .. some EB's give a decent bit of xp, others (which aren't hit as much) give xp comparable to killing a lieutenant. maybe the instanced raids will even things out?

 

On 8/18/2024 at 8:33 AM, Glacier Peak said:

It took years to get that Hamidon strategy down to a simple, anyone can do it series of commands. It still took years of time to perfect so that players can run it in 30 minutes to an hour. Giant Monsters were actually designed for multiple 8 person teams when they were originally released in to Hazard Zones before they could be soloed in minutes. The strategies for the Minotaur are in their impetus ...

 🙂🙉🐊🦆🧀

 

On 8/18/2024 at 3:05 AM, DarkRevelation said:

 

 

That is a really, really good idea. 

seconded. the problem of people tp'ing to me as a stealther in a large league has been that of random people teleporting to me and getting me killed. a toggle that must be reactivated each time will make sure that if I die, it's my own damn fault.

 

 

[golstat2003]

17 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

80 merits = 240 converters

 

240 converters * 65k inf on the market = 15.6m inf

 

8 Prismatic Aether * 2.5m inf = 20m inf

 

The rewards are pretty close. And 8 Prismatic Aether will sell a lot faster that 240 converters.

 

Yeah, no.

 

That's not how you use converters to make inf. You don't sell them. You buy cheap enhancements and use the covnerts to convert them to rares. And then sell those.

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, Laucianna said:

As someone who runs both, Labyrinth is far easier to run mainly due to two factors for me, Lores and scaling difficulty with league size, I am certain a bunch of any ATs with lores can take on Labyrinth, hell if an instanced version comes out I will be trying a Kheldian one. But there is no way you can get away with that for a Hamidon raid 😄 I've said my opinions earlier but to me LoF is a fun new piece of content with a unique way of playing, good rewards, tons of lore, and easy to fill for, which to me makes it a great piece of additional content even if it is not some peoples cup of tea ❤️

 

Don't get me wrong. I too love LOF, especially the ones you lead.

 

But the rewards are no way near comparible to Hamidon. Especially if you don't waste the converters you can get from the merits, by simply selling them. lol

 

🙄

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, arcane said:

If you want to be a stickler about that, you could just as easily sell the Prismatics, buy Converters, and proceed from there with your marketeering scheme.

 

Minotaur rewards easily match Hamidon rewards and there’s no way around that.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited August 20 by golstat2003

[Laucianna]

11 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Don't get me wrong. I too love LOF, especially the ones you lead.

 

But the rewards are no way near comparible to Hamidon. Especially if you don't waste the converters you can get from the merits, by simply selling them. lol

 

🙄

For a set of 5 Hamidon runs within 50 minutes (Around average amounts) you get around 54m Influence which equals 1,080,000.00 per minute

For your first Labyrinth run of the day it gets you 27m influence and takes about 20 minutes, which equals 1,350,000.00 per minute

Any Labyrinth run after for that day is worth around 13.5m influence so you only make around 675,000.00 per minute (About double a MSR)

Which to me is more then generous judging by the difficulty and league size needed to run ❤️

[arcane]

12 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Don't get me wrong. I too love LOF, especially the ones you lead.

 

But the rewards are no way near comparible to Hamidon. Especially if you don't waste the converters you can get from the merits, by simply selling them. lol

 

🙄

Again, nothing is preventing you from turning your Aethers into Converters via the Auction House and doing the exact same thing.

 

This isn’t something where you can agree to disagree; this is simply objective reality.

[golstat2003]

You get more mertis from Hamidon. Those merits can easily be converted to greater inf via converters and the AH.

 

There are guides and stories all over the forums (and in the market section) of folks easily making billioins off converters.

 

The inf gain from LOF for me isn't tha great since the last few leagues I've been on folks hunted the fogs, get the shifts, defeated Mino then left.

 

If there are LOFs were folks mostly hunt EBs and Mobs to get the shifts or stay after to fight EBs, I may be missing those.