Why a Brute?

[Sovera]

I keep seeing suggestions to improve Brute damage when it comes to the ATO and this misses the target by a mile. The devs actually lowered the max damage of the Brutes, they don't want the AT to be doing more so suggestions to 'fix' the AT with more damage is not going to fly. Which unfortunately includes scaling crit chance (for the record I like it).

 

As the half everything the AT is I'd like having an half strength IO duplicating the Tanker since they are a half tank AT. As it is they have too much work pushing their defensive numbers up. Tying it to Fury would be fun too in a does-not-feel-pain-of-so-furious-they-are. Scaling resists like the IO. Fury has been infantilized too much though to a point we reach max rage in seconds and it stays at maximum unless taking a break so it's no longer something to work at.

[Maelwys]

48 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

The Brute in a team will benefit from buffs very well with their increased caps, pushing them well beyond Scrapper levels and into Tanker area.

Worth clarifying that this bit is true in terms of survivability (due to their larger damage resistance cap and MaxHP), but not damage output.
The Brute damage cap being 200% higher gets negated by their lower base damage (and Fury).

A Buffed Scrapper (or Stalker) will deal more damage than a Buffed Brute because of Crits. As each AT approaches their respective damage caps there isn't a huge amount of difference in damage as long as you ignore "random" Crits (Stalker AS Forced-Crits are fine since that's a core part of their gameplay mechanic)... but unfortunately ATOs skyrocket Scrapper Crit rate; and Stalker Crit chance scales with Team size.

If they'd just sort the Brute ATOs out it'd all be a much prettier picture.

(and yes, I'm referring to level 50 min/maxxed twinked builds here. Personally I'm still of the opinion that pre-IOs and incarnates Brutes have a major advantage than Scrappers/Stalkers due to their larger HP pool and not having as much need to slot their attacks for raw damage%; which allows them far more leeway in the rest of their build!)

[Bionic_Flea]

50 minutes ago, Sovera said:

As the half everything the AT is I'd like having an half strength IO duplicating the Tanker since they are a half tank AT. As it is they have too much work pushing their defensive numbers up. Tying it to Fury would be fun too in a does-not-feel-pain-of-so-furious-they-are. Scaling resists like the IO. Fury has been infantilized too much though to a point we reach max rage in seconds and it stays at maximum unless taking a break so it's no longer something to work at.

 

Not sure if this could be easily coded, but . . . I think it would be cool to add a seventh and eighth ATO to one of the Brute sets.  They would be mutually exclusive and would yield the same set bonuses as the set currently has.  One ATO would add additional smashing damage to attacks that could be slotted for damage (like interface procs).  The amount of damage is the balancing point, or perhaps tied to fury.  The other would add +1 defense to all and +2 resist to all, or again could be tied to rage.  The balancing point is the total amount of armor allowed. 

 

That would allow players to make a build choice:  More damage or more survival.  They could also go more survival on this ATO to open up damage procs opportunities elsewhere.  They could even carry both on them and use unslotters to use out of combat to "tune" their character for whatever is coming next.  You could also completely ignore it and keep your build as it currently is.  This would not break any existing builds.

 

Crazy idea?  Maybe.  But just crazy enough to work!

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

As the half everything the AT is I'd like having an half strength IO duplicating the Tanker since they are a half tank AT. As it is they have too much work pushing their defensive numbers up. Tying it to Fury would be fun too in a does-not-feel-pain-of-so-furious-they-are. Scaling resists like the IO. Fury has been infantilized too much though to a point we reach max rage in seconds and it stays at maximum unless taking a break so it's no longer something to work at.

 

This makes more sense so long as Brutes "stay in their lane" which is that their damage output should be below scrappers/stalkers but above tankers.   Their survivability should be above scrappers/stalkers but less than tankers.

 

People have been trying to use Ston's data as a proxy for damage output and that's not what it is.  Soloing at +4/x8 necessarily involves being sturdy enough to not die while clearing the map.  If you need to focus less on defense you can focus more on offense whether that's active powers or insps or just build strategy.  It's still a trade-off.  But this doesn't change the fundamental ordering of the melee ATs because they aren't arranged by soloing speed at +4/x8.  Never have been.  Hopefully never will be.  They are arranged in order of damage output and, inversely, survivability.  Or they are supposed to be anyway.

Edited October 24 by ZemX

[ZemX]

46 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

If they'd just sort the Brute ATOs out it'd all be a much prettier picture.

 

I think before AT balance can be properly assessed probably procs need a look and also DPA.   These are really much bigger fish causing problems not just between ATs but between powersets in the same AT.  

 

I don't have much hope the recharge loophole in PPM will ever be closed.  We're all too high on it now to be withdrawn.  But global arc/radius strength (a.k.a. Gauntlet) getting factored into PPM would be a less extreme but still fair change.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

This makes more sense so long as Brutes "stay in their lane" which is that their damage output should be below scrappers/stalkers but above tankers.   Their survivability should be above scrappers/stalkers but less than tankers.

 

As I mentioned a few posts back this is an undertaking and a half since there are 236 permutations possible. Brute is not just Brute, but 236 possible versions of Brute, on top of people building with SOs, building with IOs, building with IOs but also proc bombing. This adds even more permutations.

 

And THEN it has to stay on its lane! Not too tanky, not too damagy.

 

 

The community would have a nuclear meltdown over it but Brutes are and will always be such a pain to balance that the devs would help their future selves by removing the AT (and I say this as someone with more Brutes than Tankers). Anyone who wants to be tanky and AoEy plays a Tanker, anyone who wants to be a melee DPS plays a Scrapper. Anyone who wants a stealthy crits-on-demand-instead-of-random-crits plays a Stalker.

 

Stalkers and Scrappers would still need to be balanced against each other but at least there would be but one knob to tinker with.

 

 

Fortunately I can just have my popcorn and watch from the sidelines one way or the other.

Edit: I do like the Fury mechanic more than the crits. Perhaps what Brutes need is to have their resistances/HP lowered to Scrapper/Stalker levels and then they are all three melee DPS. Again, only one knob to tweak with none of the 'but if we buff Brutes too much why would anyone play other melee ATs that do the same damage but are not as tanky?'. Then if the three are in the same damage range it becomes flavour. Random crits, crits on demand and stealth, no crits but ramping up damage.

 

Edited October 24 by Sovera

[venetiasilver]

26 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

As I mentioned a few posts back this is an undertaking and a half since there are 236 permutations possible. Brute is not just Brute, but 236 possible versions of Brute, on top of people building with SOs, building with IOs, building with IOs but also proc bombing. This adds even more permutations.

 

And THEN it has to stay on its lane! Not too tanky, not too damagy.

 

 

The community would have a nuclear meltdown over it but Brutes are and will always be such a pain to balance that the devs would help their future selves by removing the AT (and I say this as someone with more Brutes than Tankers). Anyone who wants to be tanky and AoEy plays a Tanker, anyone who wants to be a melee DPS plays a Scrapper. Anyone who wants a stealthy crits-on-demand-instead-of-random-crits plays a Stalker.

 

Stalkers and Scrappers would still need to be balanced against each other but at least there would be but one knob to tinker with.

 

 

Fortunately I can just have my popcorn and watch from the sidelines one way or the other.

Edit: I do like the Fury mechanic more than the crits. Perhaps what Brutes need is to have their resistances/HP lowered to Scrapper/Stalker levels and then they are all three melee DPS. Again, only one knob to tweak with none of the 'but if we buff Brutes too much why would anyone play other melee ATs that do the same damage but are not as tanky?'. Then if the three are in the same damage range it becomes flavour. Random crits, crits on demand and stealth, no crits but ramping up damage.

 

I think a simpler effect is to generally make brute math easier.
Keep Fury Bar, make it operate on 3 Tiers.
T1: 40% Damage Buff, T2: 80% Damage Buff / +5% Resistance / 3% Defense T3: 120% Damage Buff Endurance Discount.
Rase the base damage a smidge (5%) on all Brute Powers.
Let the Fighter, Fight, just easier less build planning.

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

As I mentioned a few posts back this is an undertaking and a half since there are 236 permutations possible. Brute is not just Brute, but 236 possible versions of Brute, on top of people building with SOs, building with IOs, building with IOs but also proc bombing. This adds even more permutations.

 

I am not suggesting any such undertaking.  Nothing like that has ever been done and thus never needs to be.  The game hasn't been balanced by all that because it IS impractical to try.  Empirically anyway.  

 

And there's no need.  If the devs want to know who's hurting, they can just look at what's popular and what's not.  If the playerbase doesn't think it's a problem.  It's not a problem.   Doesn't matter what the spreadsheets and player-run testing says.

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

The community would have a nuclear meltdown over it but Brutes are and will always be such a pain to balance that the devs would help their future selves by removing the AT

I'm not saying I would quit playing the game, but this would be as close to a move to do it. I have one Tanker at 50, another around 30. I just started a Gold side one, and it's like pulling teeth super early. I even actively told myself the Brute version would be better for what I want out of the build, but decided to do a Tanker because "there's no reason to roll a Brute these days" they say, and the post Level 50 build should in theory have a higher ceiling even if I would essentially be done with Gold side at that point. 

 

There's zero chance this isn't done again if the devs had a chance to, but part of the problem was letting villain ATs go to blue side. 

[brass_eagle]

On 10/16/2024 at 1:04 AM, Erratic1 said:

 

This is a lot like saying, "Everyone else is getting paid more but your salary stayed the same, so you're okay." You and Tidge both ignore the reality and objectivity of actual, documented performance. Again, there it this (and more but not in the mood to link every indicator):

 

 

 

Yeah, role protection. Everyone other melee AT had to have a defined role and Brutes got nerfed while other AT were buffed. And you're here agreeing with someone who literally only ever comes to the Brute forums to naysay any changes to Brutes--an AT they admit they do not like and treat their posts as somehow objective. Someone who in fact, when asked to describe what would prove to them Brutes are underperforming avoided giving any answer.

 

 

I get that you are trying to prove a point. Please help change my mind and provide a source. It does you no good to provide a snapshot without context or a link. I can guess, and I believe I may have seen this or something similar before. 

 

While I disagree with your generalizations of my comments I would like you to:

 

Please do your due diligence, and HELP ME BELIEVE YOU! Inquiring minds like it! ❤️

Edited October 25 by brass_eagle

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, brass_eagle said:

While I disagree with your generalizations of my comments I would like you to:

 

Please do your due diligence, and HELP ME BELIEVE YOU! Inquiring minds like it! ❤️

 

Ston was a rather prolific collector/tester of AT performance and the image was taken from his thread: 

 

You can click the above and go to the thread. Mind you, this is only a portion of of the totality of his work and discusses on Trapdoor, which favors area attacks and more importantly procs--something it is somewhat hard to load up on as a Brute as compared to a Tanker because Brutes have to bend their slotting towards survivability. Pylon is another common metric. And before this thread, there were others where people both reported their performance and often video clips of their runs. In the previous Trapdoor thread (in the Scrapper subforums I think) Ston would regularly challenge people's notions on exactly what type of performance could be managed on Tankers. You can catch him doing so in the following thread (which predates the one above) here:

 

 

Posting the image I did is a remind to some of the participants of this thread they participated in those other threads and did not find near the objections they have managed to find in this one.

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

A Brute can easily be a dps with increased health and potentially better mitigations. They do not have to be a tank with Tanker like survivability. They have a choice.

 

Procs are no harder to use on a Brute than they are for a Scrapper.

 

You can not compare classes based on damage procs. 

 

Ston may show certain Tankers doing well in a Trash clear but so are the Scrappers. But i can say for sure which AT will be at the top for a Pylon/AV/GM and it is not going to be a Tanker. Stalkers don't perform so well as they don't tend to have the AoE, does that make them worthless? Any AT with good AoE will clear trash easily, which is quite a few.

 

 

Edited October 25 by Gobbledigook

[Erratic1]

47 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

A Brute can easily be a dps with increased health and potentially better mitigations. They do not have to be a tank with Tanker like survivability. They have a choice.

 

Completely untrue. A Brute will never, ever, EVER tank as well as a Tanker. Period. They will also never, ever, EVER do as much damage as a Scrapper or Stalker. There is no choice. They will be second place no matter what they do.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

 

Procs are no harder to use on a Brute than they are for a Scrapper.

 

You object to something which was not said. Using the procs is a matter of slotting them. Good luck surviving if you go proc happy as a Brute relies heavily on set bonuses to reach maximum Brute survivabilty and proc'ing out will hinder you getting there.

 

47 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

 

You can not compare classes based on damage procs. 

 

*LOL*

 

47 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

 

Ston may show certain Tankers doing well in a Trash clear but so are the Scrappers. But i can say for sure which AT will be at the top for a Pylon/AV/GM and it is not going to be a Tanker. Stalkers don't perform so well as they don't tend to have the AoE, does that make them worthless? Any AT with good AoE will clear trash easily, which is quite a few.

 

 

And Brutes were never mentioned in the above. So an utterly meaningless aside.

[Octogoat]

[Gobbledigook]

38 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Completely untrue. A Brute will never, ever, EVER tank as well as a Tanker. Period. They will also never, ever, EVER do as much damage as a Scrapper or Stalker. There is no choice. They will be second place no matter what they do.

That is not what i said at all. The choice if you read it again was as to whether to build for tanking or dps. You stated  "Brutes have to bend their slotting towards survivability" and i say they don't. I have Brutes as dps and they do very well.  Brutes are the middle ground they will always be second place lol.

 

38 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

You object to something which was not said. Using the procs is a matter of slotting them. Good luck surviving if you go proc happy as a Brute relies heavily on set bonuses to reach maximum Brute survivabilty and proc'ing out will hinder you getting there.

You showed tests that were using procs "I wanted to compare Tanker vs. Brutes with identical powersetsand how they perform based on proc usage". I have procs slotted into many of my Brutes and they do just fine. I can tank a +4x8 ITF with my procced out dps build and that is good enough for me.

 

38 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

*LOL*

Whatever that means?

 

38 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

And Brutes were never mentioned in the above. So an utterly meaningless aside.

Not that i mentioned Brutes in that paragraph but i did mention Scrappers and Tankers. And you posted these tests with "

postnerf tw/bio brute

avg: 5m59s" in them. And 

 

You should probably read a little more carefully, be less aggressive and make sure your facts are correct 🙂

Edited October 25 by Gobbledigook

[Triumphant]

Is this a bad time to ask which is better:  Star Trek or Star Wars? 😏

[venetiasilver]

3 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Is this a bad time to ask which is better:  Star Trek or Star Wars? 😏

Stargate?

[Triumphant]

2 hours ago, venetiasilver said:

Stargate?

 

M'kay.  But film or TV series?  And which is the better Daniel Jackson: James Spader or Michael Shanks? 😄🤷‍♂️

[venetiasilver]

I don't know, I just know it hasn't been touched by hollywood in years so its reputation has remained good.

[Without_Pause]

At one point I would have said Star Trek for TV and Star Wars for movies, but Star Wars kept making movies. 😄

 

Likely rerolling my Gold Side Tanker to a Brute. My character might not die, but I am of boredom. I'm close enough to 11, and I know the build won't be really tolerable until 16 and more towards 20. I had a Rad/ice Tanker in their 20s and rerolled. I have a Ice/stone Brute which I love. Shield/fire was the only Tanker I liked enough to keep going for solo. Using Fire Breath was a great way to level. I dropped it later on though. I'm not sure I could be made to make another Tanker at this point. I would duo box it into its 30s if I did. 

 

People can look at their charts all they want to. It's about fun. Even more so if two ATs can deal with max diff content. Also, I have been doing DA dailies and even at x8 diff settings, there are numerous mobs at all of 3 targets. On a Scrapper, I'm herding mobs. Sure, there are some ambushes which have a dump truck worth of mobs, but my Scrapper has no real issue with it. I already know RWZ and Cim will be a better challenge although I do have fond memories of when the DA arc goes to Cim. 

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Triumphant said:

Is this a bad time to ask which is better:  Star Trek or Star Wars? 😏

 

Blake's 7 Season 1 is coming to blu-ray in the US! Target date is mid-December 2024!

 

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

Blake's 7 Season 1 is coming to blu-ray in the US! Target date is mid-December 2024!

 

I warched that back in the day. 🙂

 

My favourite is...

 

 

 

So funny.

Edited October 25 by Gobbledigook

[Triumphant]

I fear I have derailed this topic with one distracting (if well-meant) joke.  Apologies.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled Brute discussion... 🙏

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, Triumphant said:

 

M'kay.  But film or TV series?  And which is the better Daniel Jackson: James Spader or Michael Shanks? 😄🤷‍♂️

 

Film for visual lushness, series for plot/action.

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Blake's 7 Season 1 is coming to blu-ray in the US! Target date is mid-December 2024!

 

 

Villa...come here...I need you.