Power-Pool Presence, let's make it more powerful.

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Owl Girl said:

if the prevailing wisdom is that Flurry is a tax for Hasten

Were you maybe thinking of Boxing and Tough?

 

1 hour ago, brass_eagle said:

I'm okay with Flurry not existing. I know people quite enjoyed it.... in 2002.

Man, Flurry is so bad people haven't liked it since before it existed...

(Which is probably true, to be honest.)

[Owl Girl]

Flurry as a price for Hasten was a dumb thing to say. pretend instead that i used some other example of a desirable and disproportionately good pool set that places trash powers as a tax. Fighting is a great one, like megaericzero said 😛

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, Owl Girl said:

Flurry as a price for Hasten was a dumb thing to say. pretend instead that i used some other example of a desirable and disproportionately good pool set that places trash powers as a tax. Fighting is a great one, like megaericzero said 😛

 

easy, fold space! I am punished thoroughly every time i have to have that terrible travel power 😂

 

Also someone saying flurry is rapid fire and takes anyone out might be a first.

[brass_eagle]

Getting back to Presence (sorry to derail--I contributed heavily to that and accept fault), I do think @tidge has one of the better suggestions. If none of the first 3 powers [Pacify] [Provoke] [Intimidate](or whatever it is called) are going to get reworked, they should be selectable on the same / earlier levels. Intimidate is probably the worst Tier 3 (position) power out of all the power pools.

 

As others have said Unrelenting is just awesome, if you can work it in. There is simply nothing else like having ~3% of your health heal each tick for 30s *with extra buffs* and an alternate self-rez function. It is debatably one of the best pool power tier 5's. Invoke Panic is mid to low tier... but fun to shout at your enemies (for me)! I've tried to do concept builds with defenders that pretend to be controllers... and Invoke Panic is the first thing to cut when I am struggling to fit powers in. A lot of that is because the first two powers I have to pick... I don't use. Please, please! Make it easier for me to scream when I'm not sonic! Yay! ==Trying to give you my player's perspective when making choices, even for "for fun" builds==

 

My design approach would be to alter [Invoke Panic] in a homecoming way, so it is a little more desirable, then have it replace [Intimidate]. Not many people will miss a heavily nerfed single target fear. Give Presence a new Tier 4 capstone (not workshopped here). Give [Pacify] AoE, but with an accuracy penalty so it is *useable* in multiple situations. Follow @biostem's remark on giving [Provoke] some -range, say -40%*** at least. Increase the duration so it is not pitiful. And now you have a handful of marginally desireable powers that can be used in concept, or if someone really desires the effect. My design approach here is to have the first pick still be useful when enhanced, and not stepping stones or "taxes".

 

***Doesn't have to be -range, but I never agreed with the original philosophy for pool powers as the game evolved through the years. You do not have to have powers that are penalized 'just because' then penalized further because you are not the archetype that would not normally have that power. The pool power + AT modifiers are a bit overly harsh sometimes. I don't ever want to pick up a taunt [Provoke] with accuracy penalties, with pool power penalties, with target limit penalties, that only lasts 3 seconds. 

 

I'll stop there. Great suggestions I've seen, it has been talked about before... just wanted to get back on track for the OP. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16 by brass_eagle

[brass_eagle]

I did not mean to end the conversations here, ya all had a lot of great things to say! But, through the day I was thinking about Presence and I realize what feels so disjointed about the pool for me personally.

 

Very much so the first three slots, [Pacify] [Provoke] [Intimidate] -- *Placate* *Taunt* *Terrorize* -- Are all very different effects that counteract each other's playstyles. Where you go for one, you won't go for the other. They fit the "presence theme" but think about it:

• [Pacify] -- GO away.
• [Provoke] -- Hey baby, come here!
• [Intimidate] -- Stay there because I said so! Unless someone pokes you.

Now consider how ineffective these are currently because of their stats/numbers. You have to choose two ineffective*  powers that will rarely align with your purpose in a build. If that is not evidence for changing some of the level requirements for the presence pool... mmm I don't know what is! Anyway, I'm a post-mortem thinker. So these thoughts come to me after a day or two from the conversation that has died. I thought it was worth adding as food for thought this time.++

 

*(I mean nerfed, but don't know a better word.. the powers "work")

++As a side note, I remember one of the OG devs admitting to abusing -Taunt- with -Placate- when the VEATS first came out (PvP scenario) closed beta. Saying they'll make sure you cannot do that in any case. Pacify was added much after that to the pool IIRC. I think it was Castle, but I'm not sure.

Edited October 22 by brass_eagle

[Shin Magmus]

     I'm gonna have to agree overall that Presence is hilariously bad compared to the other pools.  It's also genuinely upsetting that Unrelenting has 1/2 the duration of other Pool self buff powers, giving it a base uptime ratio of 1:19... ONE TO FUCKING NINTEEN!  So yeah, it could use some work.  It ain't gonna get it though.

 

     One actually practical and good-for-the-game option would be for one of the Taunts in Presence to be changed into a toggle Taunt Aura.  That would instantly make many armorsets on Scrappers, and all armorsets on Stalkers, much more pleasant to play by preventing runners.  A good Taunt Aura would also improve the general gameplay experience of many "ranged" ATs by again, preventing runners going in random directions.  It ain't gonna happen. 

[tidge]

On 10/22/2024 at 8:31 AM, Shin Magmus said:

     I'm gonna have to agree overall that Presence is hilariously bad compared to the other pools.  It's also genuinely upsetting that Unrelenting has 1/2 the duration of other Pool self buff powers, giving it a base uptime ratio of 1:19... ONE TO FUCKING NINTEEN!  So yeah, it could use some work.  It ain't gonna get it though.

 

Are there any other pool powers that self-buff Damage by +25%?

[Shin Magmus]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Are there any other pool powers that self-buff Damage by +25%?

     Check the Experimentation pool and look at how Adrenal Booster completely outclasses Unrelenting offensively. 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Are there any other pool powers that self-buff Damage by +25%?

     Check the Experimentation pool and look at how Adrenal Booster completely outclasses Unrelenting offensively. 

I love how you only look at part of the powers in question.

 

Adrenal Booster grants +34.6% all damage, +34.6% ToHit, +34.6% recharge, and as affected by PowerBoostA and/or PowerBoostB tags, +34.6% defense, +34.6% movement, and +34.6% mez effects for 60 seconds. So this is a power that is focused on boosting your damage and secondary effects.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.experimentation.adrenal_booster&at=scrapper

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/tags.html?tag=powerboosta&q=bears

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/tags.html?tag=powerboostb&q=bears

(So unless you use specific powers while Adrenal Booster is going, you only get the +34.6% all damage, +34.6% ToHit, and +34.6% recharge.)

 

Unrelenting grants +2% health/second, +20% recharge, +20% recovery, and +25% all damage for 30 seconds, and if used when defeated instead, rezzes you with 50% health. This is a power that is supposed to rez you (because once upon a time it was only a self-rez), but can also be used instead to heal you (over time), bolster your recovery so you can use your powers more (if needed), and also boosts your damage and recharge.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.manipulation.unrelenting&at=scrapper

 

Offense isn't all there is to a power. You want to bash a power set? Go ahead. At least be honest about how the powers in it work though.

 

Edited October 24 by Rudra
Edited to remove "to preemptively". extra "to", and add missed "and recharge".

[Shin Magmus]

38 minutes ago, Rudra said:

(So unless you use specific powers while Adrenal Booster is going, you only get the +34.6% all damage, +34.6% ToHit, and +34.6% Recharge)

     For some reason you wrote this as if to refute my point, but I just want to thank you for making my point for me Rudra.  The difference between us is that I think:

 

OPTION 1

Preventitive Medicine Mule,

Travel Power + Universal Travel Set Mule,

60s: +34.6% all damage, +34.6% ToHit, and +34.6% Recharge

 

Is significantly better than...

 

OPTION 2

Dead Pick,

Dead Pick,

30s: +25% all damage, +20% Recovery, +20% Recharge 

 

     See, that comparison is really not flattering to Unrelenting: a power in the pool we are talking about buffing.  Your arguments about using Unrelenting defensively fall apart when Rune of Protection and Unleash Will are superior choices in superior pools (again, with Travel Powers), not to mention that basing your survival around long CD powers is already an unstable build strategy and not needed by people with good builds. Furthermore, anyone picking Unrelenting solely as a self Rez has no idea how this game works or what myriad of options for ally and self Rezzes already exist.  People who speedrun Advanced Mode have trays full of T4 Awakens...

[Wavicle]

I wish that Presence, Medicine, Leadership, and Fighting all had Travel powers so that EVERY power pool contained a travel power of some kind.

 

That might mean that the other sets would all have to get one more power to keep them even, but I'm ok with that.

[Indystruck]

If anyone has ever had the self rez component of Unrelenting work please post in this topic confirming it right now

[UltraAlt]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:15 PM, tidge said:

On the first point, there is no getting around that Pacify, Provoke, and Intimidate are all very different types of (single-target, or up-to-5 for Provoke) enemy-affecting powers (that each requires a ToHit check. Of the three, only Intimidate offers any reliable synergy with another pool power (Invoke Panic) choice. Even the Medicine's pool does better in terms of synergy!

 

 Think that Provoke should be single target. It makes more sense based on the archetypes that would be picking it for a pool.

I'm assuming Intimidate can't be one of the first two powers because it is a soft hold.

 

That being said, when you are solo, Pacify is a soft hold.

 

None of the powers cause damage without a proc.

 

I would swap Intimidate with Pacify (making it one of the first two powers that can be selected), and replace Pacify with a single target Confuse with a lower base accuracy and/or duration than a Controller confuse. The uses for Pacify are just extremely limited and a Confuse would cause damage (to other enemies) ... damage that you wouldn't get xp for ... and it fits just just as well into "Presence" as "Pacify"ing someone does.

 

 

On 10/15/2024 at 12:15 PM, tidge said:

Personally I think Unrelenting is better, but that Invoke Panic is more useful in lower level content

 

Unrelenting seems like it was just thrown in there as the 5th power so that the pool would have a 5th power ... and, if we have to add a 5th power, we better make it one good enough that people will want to use the presence pool.

 

If any of the powers doesn't seem to fit the Presence pool at all it is Unrelenting.

What does it have to do with Presence?

Seriously, it should have a Presence attack related to it if you use it to revive and I would make that a high magnitude PBAoE fear attack.

 

I'm all about the Invoke Panic. That is usually the reason that one of my characters will take the Presence pool.

 

 

 

[UltraAlt]

31 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

If anyone has ever had the self rez component of Unrelenting work please post in this topic confirming it right now

 

Ever had? or ever used it?

 

I have it on at least one character and have used it to rez that character.

I can't say how long ago that was.

 

 

 

Edited October 24 by UltraAlt

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

30s: +25% all damage, +20% Recovery, +20% Recharge 

And +2% HP healed per second. You left that out. Again.

 

31 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

Your arguments about using Unrelenting defensively fall apart when Rune of Protection and Unleash Will are superior choices in superior pools (again, with Travel Powers),

Your comment compared Adrenal Boost to Unrelenting, stating that Adrenal Boost is superior to Unrelenting because Unrelenting's offense is weaker than Adrenal Boost. Except that Adrenal Boost's purpose is offense whereas Unrelenting's purpose is to heal or rez you, but also boosts your offense. And now you shift to Rune of Protection instead which is just damage resistance and mez protection, so no offense in it at all, and Unleash Will, which is just regeneration, recovery, and defense, so again, no offense at all. You are now comparing 4 different powers that only peripherally overlap for completely different purposes. For the sake of saying that Unrelenting is bad. It can't boost your defense. It can't boost your damage resistance. It can't boost your ToHit. And it doesn't even boost your damage or recharge as much as Adrenal Boost. So, obviously, it sucks, right? That's how it works? Except Adrenal Boost's purpose is to boost your offense, and that's it. So it does that well. Rune of Protection's purpose is to make you more unkillable through damage resistance and mez protection. So it does that well. Unleash Will is supposed to make you more unkillable by defense, regeneration, and recovery. So it does that well. Unrelenting is supposed make you more unkillable with a HoT and recovery buff, while also boosting your offense slightly with increased damage and recharge. Or rez you if you didn't use it before you died. 4 powers with very different approaches to helping your character. And only by looking at everything those powers do is any comparison valid. Is Adrenal Boost a superior offensive buff? Yes. Is Rune of Protection a superior armor buff? Yes. Is Unleashed Will a superior defense buff? Yes. Does that make Unrelenting bad? Not even close. Because it still heals you constantly for 30 seconds, boosts your recovery, boosts your damage, and boosts your recharge. It is not supposed to compete with Adrenal Booster, Rune of Protection, or Unleash Will. All 4 powers serve a different purpose. With only Rune of Protection and Unleash Will holding the same basic role, with a different approach to the matter.

 

44 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

 See, that comparison is really not flattering to Unrelenting: a power in the pool we are talking about buffing. 

I don't care how flattering or unflattering you find the presentation for Unrelenting and the Presence pool at large. It is not a travel pool, so it gets no travel power. It is a supplemental pool. If the rest of you want to argue about buffing the set? I don't care. Like I said, go for it. Bash away. My comment is solely to point out that you are ignoring the core function of Unrelenting. For the apparent sake of dismissing the Presence pool as a set. You don't like the options to pacify, taunt, or fear enemies? That's fine. Not everyone plays the same. If you are going to argue that a set or power needs to be buffed or changed though? Then everything that power or set does is part of the discussion. Not just the part(s) you prefer.

 

46 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

not to mention that basing your survival around long CD powers is already an unstable build strategy and not needed by people with good builds.

Thank you for declaring my builds are not good for needing to sometimes get an extra buff in my resilience when multiple spawns jump my brutes at once. Long cooldowns only seem to be a problem when it comes to power sets you want changed. You sure don't seem to have a problem with Adrenal Booster having the same long cooldown though. They both have a 600 second base recharge.

[PoptartsNinja]

35 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

If anyone has ever had the self rez component of Unrelenting work please post in this topic confirming it right now

The wording is confusing. It doesn't self rez you if you die while it's active, if you die and then use it, it rezzes you.

[Wavicle]

With recent changes to Rise of the Phoenix, there is now a self rez power in the game that will rez you if you die AFTER having activated it, at least for a second or two. I would love it if such functionality were added to any power (self OR ally) on which it would be appropriate.

[Indystruck]

51 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

The wording is confusing. It doesn't self rez you if you die while it's active, if you die and then use it, it rezzes you.

 

does it at least give Untouchable or something

[UltraAlt]

43 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

does it at least give Untouchable or something

 

No. That is why I suggested ...

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Unrelenting seems like it was just thrown in there as the 5th power so that the pool would have a 5th power ... and, if we have to add a 5th power, we better make it one good enough that people will want to use the presence pool.

 

If any of the powers doesn't seem to fit the Presence pool at all it is Unrelenting.

What does it have to do with Presence?

Seriously, it should have a Presence attack related to it if you use it to revive and I would make that a high magnitude PBAoE fear attack.

 

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Indystruck said:

If anyone has ever had the self rez component of Unrelenting work please post in this topic confirming it right now

 

I've certainly used it to self-rez, but there are certain times when I'm either spamming Unrelenting or using it before defeat (and occasionally still getting defeated) so if it is down I'll use a different option to self-rez.

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I've certainly used it to self-rez, but there are certain times when I'm either spamming Unrelenting or using it before defeat (and occasionally still getting defeated) so if it is down I'll use a different option to self-rez.

     Have you tried using the same character but swapping to Unleash Potential and using that before defeat?  Have you tried the same but with Adrenal Booster?  I'm curious what your death rate would be with a power other than Unrelenting, since you have other options to self rez (as you stated).

[Snarky]

On 10/15/2024 at 7:27 AM, shortguy on indom said:

Ways to make the Prescence Pool more powerful:
⦁    Make it the only Power-Pool available with a Status Effect Powers.  ie Threat and Fear.
⦁    Make the Status Effect begin to work at Level 4.
⦁    Make all other Status Effect powers (such as Confuse, Immobilize, etc.) available at Level 38 as "Epic or Patron" Pools.
⦁    Make Threat and Fear Enhancements be "Schedule A" since they are at min. 40% stronger than "Schedule B" Enhancements.
⦁    Make 4 of the 5 available powers in the Prescence Pool be used with not just one, but two "new" Very Rare (Purple) Enhancement Sets... "Threat" and "Fear."
⦁    Make the New Purple Sets' set-bonuses begin to work with Status Effects at Level 4 and up.
⦁    Do the same with new PVP sets for "Threat" and "Fear."
⦁    Screw the Epic-Pool and Patron-Pool powers and those who choose them.  No worries, better luck next-time.
⦁    No worries that half-sets could be used in the 4 or 5 powers to maximize effectiveness of Purp/PVP Enhancements.
⦁    It's not like an exemplared down level 50 has an easier time with low level content, than a similarly level matched toon to content player.

Just skimming over this….

 

you do realize that, to achieve a goal you have not really explained needs to be achieved, you want to change this powerset, change other power sets, add new enhancement sets, change how enhancement sets work and various other hack/slash remedies?

 

so, any chance you explain why Presence needs to be changed?   

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Have you tried using the same character but swapping to Unleash Potential and using that before defeat?  Have you tried the same but with Adrenal Booster?  I'm curious what your death rate would be with a power other than Unrelenting, since you have other options to self rez (as you stated).

 

Is this a "git gud" response? If so, sit down my sweet summer child. Imma gonna guess that *my* play and build style wouldn't suit you for reasons. One guess? I don't often try to "soft cap" defenses. Another reason? I'm not afraid to spend the Green bar. The choice of Unrelenting (and the rest of the Presence pool) has everything to do with what else any given build has going on, just as all the other pool choices. My "death rate" is pretty minimal as is, the defeats are mostly because I'm always almost always playing on both sides of the envelope. Specific to Adrenal Booster... the non-damage buffs it offers with Defense and ToHit are often mostly wasted on my builds (even when I don't "soft-cap" my defenses), because of the way the attack mechanics work in the game.

 

I've built and used most of the longish-recharge buffs, and I have comments on Adrenal Booster, and its pool Experimentation. I have this pool on several characters, and I have to admit: I strongly dislike Speed of Sound as a travel power, because every time I hit the <space bar>, the lack of +JumpSpeed completely takes me out of the game. And since Experimentation is a specialized "Origin" pool, it locks me out of certain alternate pool choices that offer better no-prerequisite utility powers IMO, even as "mule" choices. Quality-of-life is not so improved for my builds by selecting that origin pool. Besides, if I am taking Experimentation, it is 100% because I want Corrosive Vial.

[Shin Magmus]

Just now, tidge said:

 

Is this a "git gud" response? If so, sit down my sweet summer child. Imma gonna guess that *my* play and build style wouldn't suit you for reasons. One guess? I don't often try to "soft cap" defenses. Another reason? I'm not afraid to spend the Green bar. The choice of Unrelenting (and the rest of the Presence pool) has everything to do with what else any given build has going on, just as all the other pool choices. My "death rate" is pretty minimal as is, the defeats are mostly because I'm always almost always playing on both sides of the envelope. Specific to Adrenal Booster... the non-damage buffs it offers with Defense and ToHit are often mostly wasted on my builds (even when I don't "soft-cap" my defenses), because of the way the attack mechanics work in the game.

 

I've built and used most of the longish-recharge buffs, and I have comments on Adrenal Booster, and its pool Experimentation. I have this pool on several characters, and I have to admit: I strongly dislike Speed of Sound as a travel power, because every time I hit the <space bar>, the lack of +JumpSpeed completely takes me out of the game. And since Experimentation is a specialized "Origin" pool, it locks me out of certain alternate pool choices that offer better no-prerequisite utility powers IMO, even as "mule" choices. Quality-of-life is not so improved for my builds by selecting that origin pool. Besides, if I am taking Experimentation, it is 100% because I want Corrosive Vial.

     Wow, that's a lot of angry assumptions when I was just asking if you tried the other similar self-buff options to compare them to Unrelenting.

[tidge]

8 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Wow, that's a lot of angry assumptions when I was just asking if you tried the other similar self-buff options to compare them to Unrelenting.

 

Kinda trollish, especially with the shifting of goalposts to attack a power pool that you think is "hilariously bad".

 

On 10/22/2024 at 8:31 AM, Shin Magmus said:

     I'm gonna have to agree overall that Presence is hilariously bad compared to the other pools.

 

Narrator: It turns out that Presence is not a hilariously bad pool. It has a lack of non-synergy among the first three "gate-keeping" picks. It shares a weirdness with other non-travel power pools about what level certain powers can be picked. That's the extend of its "issues", unless a player legitimately can't figure out how to use the powers... but that is a player issue, not an issue with the pool itself.(*1)

 

@Rudra went into a lot of detail about the differences of the sorts of power buffs you brought into this discussion. I spoke precisely to your targeted comments that, if those comments weren't trolls about "play better by picking something else", and were genuinely curious about my personal experiences with one of those other buffs you think is better... well you got your answer.

 

(*1) Of the legacy power pools, Presence, Medicine and Flight are the ones I think bear examination.

 

Presence: I explained the simple sort of changes that make the most sense to me, and they don't require changing the powers (except possibly to offer a Fighting pool-like boost for taking multiples)

 

Medicine: minimally needs to reduce the level-gate on Aid Self, the game has moved well past the point where this was a necessary gate.

 

Flight: My personal issue is that the set is toggle heavy, so maybe bump Evasive Maneuvers to be gated by level 20 and make it an auto power, perhaps rethink the (non-)interplay of Group Fly and Fly. I write the latter not to bring up Group Fly per se, just that when a character uses all of Hover, Fly, Group Fly and Evasive Maneuvers there is no benefit (to the player) to both Fly and Group Fly but there are "taxes" in the form of Endurance, animation/activation times, recharge times, needs to detoggle, etc.