Civilians 2.0

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

.... literally WTF?   Go, be a hero.  If you want to be a Villain.  Redside.

 

Again. Villain does not mean psychopath. Villain does not mean mass murder.  Can those be aspects of a villain? Sure. And you have choices if that's what you want to pursue.

 

I am looking for a choice that does NOT mean that.

 

Yes, Krylov has an arc, blah blah blah. Mr. Bocor has you kidnapping people he can use. You can run those arcs - or not. That is *a* type of villainy. Much like buying a car does not mean you're buying a Tesla or a Corvette.

 

In my stable of villains, I have people who are in it for world domination. Or letting someone else do the world-dominating, as long as they get to actually pull the strings. I have information brokers. Arms dealers. People in it for revenge. People in it for the money. People doing it because it's all they know. Assassins - which, no, is not "mass murder of random groups of civilians." In fact, they'd want to avoid that because it would draw attention. Corporate villains, getting control while maintaining a friendly, "helpful" public face.

 

Pity you have such a narrow view of "Villain = kill everyone in sight mindlessly," apparently. At least given how you're arguing, that's the only conclusion I can come to. And yet, my suggestion... wouldn't take that away from you. You can still go into a bank mission and murder everything in sight, if that's what you want to do.

 

50 minutes ago, Snarky said:

This threads theme seems to be "Lets make Redside a place for boyscouts doing good deeds with badges and smores"  

 

No. This thread's theme is "Make room for villains who don't see the need to be brainless murder machines." And I gave example reasons as to why a *villain* - even in the middle of *actively robbing a bank* - might have this mindset.

 

It has nothing to do with "Let me be a hero redside." It says nothing about that at all. I even clarified that in a later post. That's you reading that in and getting hung up on it. For clarity, I've even gone through and colored *everything that deals with redside* red so as to reduce confusion.

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

 

Again. Villain does not mean psychopath. Villain does not mean mass murder.  Can those be aspects of a villain? Sure. And you have choices if that's what you want to pursue.

 

I am looking for a choice that does NOT mean that.

 

 

 

Personal opinion: this has always been a design flaw with City of Villains.   "Villain" in CoV doesn't even stop at terms like psychopath and mass murderer.  Villain in COV simply means completely, morally bankrupt.  Only one possibility.  Later, they tacked on the morality system, so one can be a rogue.  The problem is the rogue still has to do these missions of complete, moral bankruptcy.  While there are missions that give you an either/or option (which is admittedly a bit better), the game was not designed to take into account the nuances in villainy that comic books and Hollywood have known for decades.  Had they the resources, perhaps the design team could have created a host of contacts to represent these styles and choices of villainy or perhaps have the contacts "recognize" certain villains operate differently, and offer different mission choices to choose from to reflect that.  Basically a villain choice/style system acting a bit like the current morality system but entirely within CoV.  But unfortunately, that's not what was produced.

[Greycat]

50 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

Personal opinion: this has always been a design flaw with City of Villains.   "Villain" in CoV doesn't even stop at terms like psychopath and mass murderer.  Villain in COV simply means completely, morally bankrupt.  Only one possibility.  Later, they tacked on the morality system, so one can be a rogue.  The problem is the rogue still has to do these missions of complete, moral bankruptcy.  While there are missions that give you an either/or option (which is admittedly a bit better), the game was not designed to take into account the nuances in villainy that comic books and Hollywood have known for decades.  Had they the resources, perhaps the design team could have created a host of contacts to represent these styles and choices of villainy or perhaps have the contacts "recognize" certain villains operate differently, and offer different mission choices to choose from to reflect that.  Basically a villain choice/style system acting a bit like the current morality system but entirely within CoV.  But unfortunately, that's not what was produced.

 

Honestly... city of villains just never could do anything but kind of railroad you along a path. Early on, it felt like your choices were "dupe" or "psycho." It did try branching out a little, even without the morality system. But yes, as you mentioned, it just can't let you be any of a host of other sorts of villains.

 

Where's the master schemer, rule the world type? Yes, you can run a villain group - but the game doesn't care that you're actually the leader of this group of minions. It doesn't really empower you to create plans and try to carry them out - AE's "sort of" this, but also not - and again, the rest of the game doesn't care. COV doesn't react to you, past very generic dialog. Not even with VEATs - which I still think is a missed opportunity. Khelds get custom enemies. VEATs should be getting more recognition, at least from Arachnos troops - both positive and negative. Get some followers. Get some people who want to make a name taking you down. Yes, it (kind of) happens a little in a VEAT arc or two, but it's barely done - and it's not seen in the world at large.

 

Being a villain of any depth really requires a sit down, who brought the nachos, bring your dice RPG to do properly.

 

Doesn't mean I don't want to improve the choices redside, though.

[lemming]

Back when we played Champions, we did a few villain campaigns just as a change of pace.

 

On CoX, I know people that won't do anything but pure Hero.

 

I tend to play my characters as a collection of "What If?" and other dimensional/timeline oddness so that something that would be out of character can be hand waved away as a "Simulation/Bad Dream/Danger Room/Parallel World/etc" thing.

 

"Oh, the Terminator badge?  I got that while training Longbow on how to respond to Bank Robberies and other crimes.  I think the longbow playing civilians are a little over dramatic though.  It wasn't even a sharpened caltrop"

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

In my stable of villains, I have people who are in it for world domination. Or letting someone else do the world-dominating, as long as they get to actually pull the strings. I have information brokers. Arms dealers. Corporate villains, getting control while maintaining a friendly, "helpful" public face.

Oh, i get it now.  Your villains don’t care how many people are murdered.  Just so long as they get the money and power.   Also, they do not want to be the ones killing AND they want rewards for not killing anyone.  I take it back. You belong Redside 👍 definitely 

 

[TheMoneyMaker]

On 10/28/2024 at 5:39 PM, Greycat said:

 

Going to stop right there, as re-reading what I posted, I wasn't that clear.

 

When I'm talking about *rescuing* civilians, I'm talking open-world on the street. Basically first two paragraphs = bank missions, last one, open world (muggings, etc.) 

 

I *do* want the option/ reward/ etc. for not being a mass murderer in the bank missions, though.

Just be a sociopath and get over it.

[Chris24601]

5 hours ago, Ghost said:

There are roughly 12 red side players, and you’re okay with one leaving?

🤭🤭🤭

Eleven.

 

My Widow (which went Rogue ASAP after creation) is gone once I’m done with Hardcase’s “make money protecting St. Martial from demons” arcs (basically the highest level villain-exclusive arc I’ve found) and run through all the Rogue tips at 40+ once each (John Houston, while technically Rogue content, is positioned Blueside).

 

Fortunately, there’s a number of Rogue-ish arcs in the earlier levels and access to First/Night Wards, RWZ and the Blueside rogue-to-hero tip missions can be a good palate cleansers across the 20-40 range.

 

Ultimately, once you hit Grandville all the content there leans heavily villain. If you’re merely a Rogue it’s time to get out of dodge at that point.

 

And that makes sense in terms of the alignment system’s original intent. Rogue and Vigilante were meant to be transitional states… an extra two days of grinding to get through with just enough content to carry you through to full-hero or villain. If you were going Rogue at all it was to transition to being a Hero.

 

That’s changed a bit in Homecoming with the effort to put in some legit rogue and vigilante content, but it will realistically take more work than the current Dev team can really afford to meaningfully change that.

 

I would say though that the John Houston arc being set in Paragon City is the model that should be used for Rogue-focused missions in the 40+ range. If you’re not out to be an Arachnos lackey then you have no business being on Grandville so placing future Rogue arcs in Paragon (and Vigilante arcs in the Isles) justice makes sense. Paragon City is the alternate zone for Rogues uninterested in Arachnos villainy.

 

In lieu of massive original content for rogues and vigilantes, I’d suggest parsing through the existing contacts and arcs of the respective sides and opening ones that are “close enough” to rogues and vigilantes respectively. I’m betting you could find at least one arc per level band that could crossover (ex. a vigilante might not like Arachnos proper, but Marshal Brass is a pretty “reasonable authority figure” just trying to keep his city from exploding due to Aeon’s nutty schemes and “the enemy of my enemy” can justify it).

 

Similarly, any of the arcs that reward you with cool temp powers because you held onto the artifacts/devices afterwards are probably justification enough for a rogue to be interested (if they’re being paid they’re good).

 

The idea is to fill in that middle ground with more options for as little effort as possible.

[Ghost]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Eleven.

 

11 ?!?

At this rate, they’ll be at PvP before you know it

[Vic Raiden]

Ugh, trying to work out a solution to redside's shortcomings is never not gonna be pain. I suppose part of that comes from being tacked on top of what used to be a pure hero game until then, plus the original devs not really wanting players to enjoy villainy to begin with, I think?

 

Anyhow, this is starting to feel like one of those situations where the closest thing to fixing it would be to remake it from the ground up with a different mindset.

[Shin Magmus]

Snarky, they aren't worth it.  I do not need to elaborate.

[Snarky]

22 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

Ugh, trying to work out a solution to redside's shortcomings is never not gonna be pain. I suppose part of that comes from being tacked on top of what used to be a pure hero game until then, plus the original devs not really wanting players to enjoy villainy to begin with, I think?

 

Anyhow, this is starting to feel like one of those situations where the closest thing to fixing it would be to remake it from the ground up with a different mindset.

I have played a LOT of red over the years.  Devs not wanting players to enjoy villainy?  Have you even played Red?  Starting in prison, badges for killing people.  Double, triple, quadruple crossing each other?  

[Vic Raiden]

I honestly dunno, but I do feel insulted right now because my first character here was made redside. It's just that it's not really as enjoyable as it may seem because of how all-over-the-place the questlines are in terms of the exact villainy you do. Villains are generally harder to play in a questgiver-based system simply because they're the proactive ones and vary so much in their goals, methods and values that it's far easier to say "my character would never do this!" mid-questline... and then have to do it anyway because there's no progressing otherwise.

 

Sure, you can have the wiki at hand at all times and cherrypick the arcs you feel your villain is least unlikely to do, but in the end, sometimes it still feels like the "intended" way of playing redside is to be an absolute sociopath who'd do literally anything for the greater evil.

Edited October 31 by Vic Raiden

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

I honestly dunno, but I do feel insulted right now because my first character here was made redside. It's just that it's not really as enjoyable as it may seem because of how all-over-the-place the questlines are in terms of the exact villainy you do. Villains are generally harder to play in a questgiver-based system simply because they're the proactive ones and vary so much in their goals, methods and values that it's far easier to say "my character would never do this!" mid-questline... and then have to do it anyway because there's no progressing otherwise.

okay.  gonna slow walk this because I love Redside.

 

You have a choice at the beginning of every character.  1) Kalinda 2) Burke 3) streethunt go your own way.  

 

Kalinda will tell you about working with Arachnos, the factions, the redside "proper way"

Burke will tell you about being a villain, making money, and double dealing on Atachnos whenever it is profitable

Or.... you can seek out your own path.

 

The conversations with Kalinda and Burke are detailed and well written.  I will not repeat them here.  The HC Wiki for their contacts has their entire dialogue.  It goes to the heart (both contacts) of why you (as a selfish villain) would do these missions/quests/goals using the contacts preferred methods and imitating their values for a few missions. It definitely answers most of "I would never do this" issues.  But if "I WOULD NEVER DO THIS" does come up.  Stop.  There are many options, including Going Rogue and exploring other morality choices.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

But if "I WOULD NEVER DO THIS" does come up.  Stop.  There are many options, including Going Rogue and exploring other morality choices.

@Vic Raiden's point about "My character would never do this!" is that there are several arcs that when you start, seem to fit with your character, but then during the arc suddenly veer sideways into content that character would not do. And since it is an arc and not a standalone mission, you are stuck with it. Even if you walk away to do other content instead, change alignments and go full hero to be a goody-two shoes, apply pie and hugs for everyone character, when you go back red side, that arc is still sitting there in your list. The contact doesn't go away. The book icon showing in progress story doesn't go away. The only way to remove it is to complete it.

[Vic Raiden]

Huh. Never thought I'd have Rudra of all people defending me.

 

Either way, yeah. As far as I know, a lot of people just aren't comfortable with the fact the game's very structure forces them to play lackeys to a number of NPC villains, regardless of whether or not a given arc ends with a double-cross in the player character's favor. And having to spoil oneself by checking every single contact on the wiki before accepting their missions is a pretty clunky way to play because, in some edge cases, it may leave one with no sufficiently in-character options whatsoever.

 

And well, let me reiterate: writing playable content for villains is just that much harder in the context of a video game, especially a static-world MMORPG maintained by a small circle of volunteers. There's ultimately a lot more villain archetypes than hero archetypes, and few of them would be morally bankrupt enough to be content doing literally any kind of evil they're asked to do.

[Snarky]

32 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

There's ultimately a lot more villain archetypes than hero archetypes, and few of them would be morally bankrupt enough to be content doing literally any kind of evil they're asked to do.

damn.  it's like that huh?

Edited October 31 by Snarky

[biostem]

Maybe they could do something like if you do not defeat any civilians from levels 1-10, you get badge A, from 11-20, badge B, and so on;  So you may miss one particular level range's badge, but can still work toward the next level range's...

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Maybe they could do something like if you do not defeat any civilians from levels 1-10, you get badge A, from 11-20, badge B, and so on;  So you may miss one particular level range's badge, but can still work toward the next level range's...

here is one of the rails i follow away from this logic line.  badges.  the OP mentioned badges.  IF you are a BADGER....  you can kiss your sweet innocence goodbye.  Or, if a villain, get ready to save the world.  A few times.  No BADGER, no true BADGER is alignment true.

 

and... just like Bank badges the DEVs would be pestered into setting up ways to get these badges if passed over.  They even finally fixed old Pither.

 

So, badges for not killing people, or pretending to be a good guy while selling nuclear dirty bombs to Freakshow, whatever....

 

Then everyone is like "I dont want to be a Lackey" "My villain would never do that" "I only drain the drugg addled homeless when i'm starving"  - wait, that last one may just be me.  Anyways, NO ONE FORCES A VILLAIN TO DO ANYTHING.  You can street hunt to 50 and only do the arc where you hand Recluse his head if you want.  Or dont do that.  

 

Or...  You can start in the ZIG, breakout, and run every single RED story arc, stopping experience to do so.  Get to know the Isles.  You are going to be a Destined One baby!

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

Maybe they could do something like if you do not defeat any civilians from levels 1-10, you get badge A, from 11-20, badge B, and so on;  So you may miss one particular level range's badge, but can still work toward the next level range's...

Limiting any badges to specific level ranges probably won't go over well unless that's via the missions themselves and not actually the character levels, allowing people to reattempt.

 

It'd be a shame to accidentally hit 21 and go "whoops - forgot to get the badge for that level range; time to remake," much less 30 or 40. That or any of the gazillion new and refurbished set gimmicks accidentally doing AOE damage and harming a civilian unintentionally.

Edited October 31 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Snarky said:

badges.  the OP mentioned badges.  IF you are a BADGER....  you can kiss your sweet innocence goodbye.  Or, if a villain, get ready to save the world.  A few times.  No BADGER, no true BADGER is alignment true.

I've disagreed with @Snarky at pretty much every point in this thread, but this? This I wholeheartedly agree with. We can't both be Badgers and also be sticklers for what our characters would or would not do. (That's why not all my characters are badge characters....)

 

So while I still maintain converting the AE Terminator badge to a Mayhem murder 1,000 civilians by your own means without the use of your available pets because your pets won't attack them unless specifically ordered to attack each individual civilian at a time Terminator badge was a ridiculously bad idea to implement, it is what it is. If we want those badges, we have to do what those badges call for.

[lemming]

28 minutes ago, Snarky said:

No BADGER, no true BADGER is alignment true.

Those were just simulations and crisis actors!

[Chris24601]

If you wanted a real supervillain experience, after leaving the tutorial, Redside 2.0 would dump into a dark room with no obvious exits and an AE interface to assemble your plans and unleash them upon the world. 😆

[Gravitus]

On 10/29/2024 at 6:37 PM, Greycat said:

 

"Villain" is not the same as "mass murderer" or "Psychopath." A person stealing money supposedly going to a charity in order to line their own bank account is a villain without so much as speaking slightly loudly to someone. There are many, many sorts of villainy that don't involve whipping out a machine gun and mowing down civilians.

 

You want to kill everything in sight? Go for it. My villains typically don't. And frankly, *given it takes extra effort thanks to prior decisions,* I'd like to see that recognized as well.

 

How many instances in history can you point to where a group of people bent on robbing a bank vault by sheer force weren't willing to kill people? 

[Gravitus]

On 10/30/2024 at 4:13 AM, Rudra said:

 The only red side content I don't do is Westin Phipps. 

 

 

Society has become soft 

[Gravitus]

On 10/30/2024 at 5:19 AM, Greycat said:

 

Again. Villain does not mean psychopath. Villain does not mean mass murder.  Can those be aspects of a villain? Sure. And you have choices if that's what you want to pursue.

 

 

The game already provided you with that...It's called being a Rogue. But if you don't like killing civilians as a villain......just don't do it.... will some accidentally die in the bank missions? yes...but that's collateral damage of your character committing a series of felonies with superpowers. No changes to code need to be made here. 

 

I mean, would you be ok with me being a hero who chooses to kill people sometimes or would you tell me to be a Vigilante? 

Edited November 1 by Gravitus