Mind Control

[Spectre7878]

I was wondering if the devs could look at the recharge numbers on the aoe powers. I play a lot of control types and it really seems mind control is very slow on recharge compared to the other control types. 
 

I always like mind control since live but now I feel it is under powered compared to other sets. 
 

Thanks 

[Rudra]

TAoE sleep:

Spore Burst - 45 second recharge

Mass Hypnosis - 45 second recharge

 

TAoE hold:

Chords of Despair - 240 second recharge

Gravity Distortion Field - 240 second recharge

Shadow Field - 240 second recharge

Total Domination - 240 second recharge

 

TAoE confuse:

Mass Domination - 240 second recharge

No other TAoE confuses that I saw, just Seeds of Confusion's cone.

 

[Trickshooter]

48 minutes ago, Rudra said:

TAoE confuse:

Mass Domination - 240 second recharge

No other TAoE confuses that I saw, just Seeds of Confusion's cone.

 

Well, they're not TAoE, but Elec Control has a Chain AoE Confuse:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.electric_control.synaptic_overload&at=controller

 

And Arsenal Control has a Location AoE Confuse:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.arsenal_control.smoke_canister&at=controller

 

They all work a little too different from each other to make comparing them easy, but I think most people would agree that Mass Confusion on a 240s timer, when the others are between 60-90s, is a bit excessive. Nothing else in the set is really out of line recharge-wise, though.

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

 

Well, they're not TAoE, but Elec Control has a Chain AoE Confuse:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.electric_control.synaptic_overload&at=controller

 

And Arsenal Control has a Location AoE Confuse:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.arsenal_control.smoke_canister&at=controller

 

They all work a little too different from each other to make comparing them easy, but I think most people would agree that Mass Confusion on a 240s timer, when the others are between 60-90s, is a bit excessive. Nothing else in the set is really out of line recharge-wise, though.

They aren't comparable.

 

Synaptic Overload                                        Smoke Canister                                                  Mass Domination

Accuracy 1                                                      Accuracy 1                                                            Accuracy 0.8

Range 80 feet                                                 Range 80 feet                                                        Range 80 feet

Cast 2.37 seconds                                          Cast 1.4 seconds                                                    Cast 1.67 seconds

ATBE 1.767 seconds                                       ATBE Weirdly set up                                                ATBE 1.7 seconds

Recharge 60 seconds                                     Recharge 90 seconds                                              Recharge 240 seconds

Single Target (Can chain)*                               25 feet radius/10 targets                                        25 feet radius/16 targets

8.528 Endurance                                            16.64 Endurance                                                    26 Endurance

Mag 3 Confuse/27.938 seconds                     Mag 3 Confuse/3.725 seconds                               Mag 3 Confuse/37.25 seconds

-10% Endurance                                             -100,000% KU/KB / 4 seconds                               Mag 1 Confuse/ 20% chance/27.938 seconds

Mag 1 Confuse/ 20% chance/4 seconds         -15% ToHit/2.5 seconds

-2.2 points Endurance /20% chance                Mag 3 Confuse/ 20% chance/1.863 seconds

 

*- Synaptic Overload Jumps 1, 2 & 3

Accuracy 2, 1.5, & 1 respectively

Animation 1.167 seconds

ATBE 0.5 seconds

15 feet radius/1 target

Mag 3 Confuse/22.35 seconds

 

Mass Domination confuses targets for 10x longer than Smoke Canister and almost 10 seconds longer than Synaptic Overload. And can affect more targets than either of them.

 

Edited November 5 by Rudra
Edited to add diferentiated accuracies.

[Trickshooter]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Mass Domination confuses targets for 10x longer than Smoke Canister and almost 10 seconds longer than Synaptic Overload. And can affect more targets than either of them.

 

Smoke Canister is a patch that lasts 30 seconds, reapplying it's confuse every 1 second, so it's disingenuous to say Mass Confusion lasts 10x longer. Smoke Canister's Confuse can last up to over 30 seconds (though to be fair that's pretty much the extent of how long it can last, even with slotting). And yes, Mass Confusion is longer than Synaptic Overload, but even basic slotting will have Synaptic Overload recharged long before it ends. No amount of slotting can get Mass Confusion there.

 

Not to mention that Mass Confusion comes with a whopping -20% base Accuracy. A penalty no other AoE Confuse suffers from, not even the most comparable power in the game: Fortunatas' Aura of Confusion (although that is the only benefit that power has over Mass Confusion, honestly).

 

Mass Confusion isn't a bad power; it's still very potent as crowd control. But it's a tier 9 power designed for Issue 0 and it shows.

 

p.s. i am a thousand years old and have no intention to turn this in to a back and forth argument so if you respond and then i don't, it's because i don't have the energy or i died.

Edited November 5 by Trickshooter

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Trickshooter said:

reapplying it's confuse every 1 second

I'm not seeing that in CoD and I don't use Arsenal Control.

 

2 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Not to mention that Mass Confusion comes with a whopping -20% base Accuracy. A penalty no other AoE Confuse suffers from, not even the most comparable power in the game: Fortunatas' Aura of Confusion (although that is the only benefit that power has over Mass Confusion, honestly).

 

Mass Confusion isn't a bad power; it's still very potent as crowd control. But it's a tier 9 power designed for Issue 0 and it shows.

I'm not arguing how well Mass Confusion works or doesn't, I'm simply saying that those three powers aren't comparable. (Though if the constant application of Smoke Canister is correct, then those two are at least similar.) So if you want to argue about whether Mass Confusion needs buffing? That's for someone else to argue, not me.

[arcane]

In addition to higher duration, higher target cap, and ease of use (TAoE), Mass Confusion also doesn’t draw aggro. 
 

I do think the disparity is perhaps a bit much, so I could talk 180-210 seconds instead of 240, but IMO part of that is Seeds of Confusion actually needing to be nerfed a bit (90-120 seconds instead of 60).

[Psyonico]

I agree that Mass Confusion could use to be looked at, bare minimum, the accuracy needs to be upped to 1, but it could use a recharge reduction as well, even 180 would be better than the 240 it is now.

[Trickshooter]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

I'm not seeing that in CoD and I don't use Arsenal Control.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=redirects.assault_rifle.smoke_confusion&at=controller

 

"Activate Period" on the left is how frequently a toggle or auto power 'tics' or reapplies it's effects. So for Smoke Canister it's every 1 second.

[Trickshooter]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

In addition to higher duration, higher target cap, and ease of use (TAoE), Mass Confusion also doesn’t draw aggro. 

 

Neither does Smoke Canister or Synaptic Overload. Seeds of Confusion is the only one that does.

[tidge]

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

TAoE confuse:

Mass Domination - 240 second recharge

No other TAoE confuses that I saw, just Seeds of Confusion's cone.

 

Do we all still agree that Seeds of Confusion is the elephant in the room?

 

Setting aside the level at which Seeds of Confusion can be taken (it isn't a T9!), differences in cast/arcana time, Endurance cost, etc.  the base accuracy of 1.0 compared to Mass Confusion's 0.8 really sticks out like a sore (green) thumb. Even Terrify doesn't get a 1.0 base accuracy!

 

16 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

Mass Confusion isn't a bad power; it's still very potent as crowd control. But it's a tier 9 power designed for Issue 0 and it shows.

 

+1.

 

I'll repeat/clarify: I'm mostly ok with the balance among the higher-tier AoE controls (when only looking at the higher-tier controls), but as soon as I look at Seeds of Confusion, or the recharge times, base accuracies and (potential) secondary effects of t9 nukes (plus damage, natch), I kinda wonder why the higher tier controls still have such mediocre values.

 

16 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I agree that Mass Confusion could use to be looked at, bare minimum, the accuracy needs to be upped to 1, but it could use a recharge reduction as well, even 180 would be better than the 240 it is now.

 

With T9 nukes having base accuracies above 1.0, I see no reason to keep the slower-recharging T9 controls to have accuracies below 1.0. I'm not an automatic advocate for reducing recharge times, only because it's hard to know what the effect would be (blah blah game balance). It's clear that the game has an underlying philosophy that all enemies (PvE certainly) in a spawn shouldn't be 100% controlled 100% of the time (using IOs).

[Frozen Burn]

I have been saying these things for years about the disparity between Mass Confusion and other AOE confuse powers.  I totally get how they all differ and why they differ, but in real application and use in-game - there is no reason to pick Mass confusion with lower acc and double/triple the recharge rate over other AOE confuses.  In practical use - a group gets confused like the others - yes, by different means - but the end result is the same and Mind Control suffers comparatively in that way.  

 

Thankfully, the HC devs finally looked at Mind Control and fixed the lower tier powers / issues that needed help as well, but it hurt that Mass Confusion was ignored.

 

There does need a balance pass on Seeds of Confusion and Mass Confusion so they are more inline with other AOE confuses.  Seeds needs a longer recharge, and Mass needs lower recharge and base Acc bumped up.  This would help Mind Control play better on a team (as well as solo better too) like other sets with AOE confuses.  

 

It would be great if Mass Confusion was not a T9 power too, but top priority is getting the recharge down (180s would be fine, imo), with the Acc boost secondary.

[tidge]

I think it is unlikely that Seeds of Confusion would ever be modified in any meaningful way. It was a solid reason to "buy" Plant Control on live, and I just don't know that anyone can make a cogent argument for actually hitting it with a nerf bat. The set has maintained its status as one of the strongest for so long... I think it is only by looking at the other Control powers and trying to decide if they still make sense (AoE range/radius, accuracy, endurance cost, recharge time, magnitude, duration, etc.) given the context of the entire game.

 

I don't mean to invoke a discussion of "What is the role of a Controller in ____ content?", but it is hard to look out the (now, long existing) current state of something like AoE damaging powers (the "nukes", which wouldn't be nerfed, I'm sure) and not wonder why the base attributes of the high-tier control powers were not re-examined.

 

As I wrote above, I'm sensitive about giving the AoE controls inherently shorter recharge times... even if I can absolutely see the appeal to that potential solution. And I think I could argue for it, but I'd rather someone else think through a more rapid-firing AoE control's effect on game balance! I'd prefer to avoid having a powers dev try to spreadsheet a reduction in control durations just because the base recharge changed (which AFAIK something similar goes into 'balance passes' of attacks). I suggest base Accuracy as a quick fix (a benefit with no added drawback) because I think it is easier to see from a "game balance without IOs" perspective that:

• A level 8 power that needs minimal accuracy slotting, when first available, is compared with
• A similar level 26 that needs accuracy slotting (and recharge, at least to approach the utility of Seeds)

The point I'm trying to make is that a low level 8 character using Seeds of Confusion doesn't have to make any slot investments in it (at least not right away), whereas a fresh level 26 with Mass Confusion is going to need at least two slots to approach getting a similar utility as an unenhanced Seeds of Confusion. Eventually the slots start becoming available, but between 8 and 26+ there is a LOT of game content. I also kinda think that "base accuracy" is enough of a 'hidden' stat that improving it on a marquee power would be palatable.

 

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Mass Confusion is going to need at least two slots to approach getting a similar utility as an unenhanced Seeds of Confusion.

Except 2 slots doesn't get close to unslotted Seeds, you need 2x accuracy and 3x recharge SOs to have a power that still has a > 50% longer recharge than base Seeds of Confusion.

 

I don't like comparing Seeds to Mass Confusion because they aren't really the same utility.  Seeds is you "up most spawns" control power, in Mind, that spot is taken by Terrify.  The problem is that Seeds mitigates 100% of damage to those who are affected by it, while Terrify does not.

 

Control power sets are really hard to compare 1-to-1 because of how different they all are.  Plant is an excellent control set, but it has 3 AoE controls that mitigate damage (one being a sleep). Mind has 4 (one being a sleep).  Because of this, and also the Terrify thing mentioned above, I don't see Mass Confusion getting a significantly shorter recharge.  However, I do think asking for a slightly shorter recharge (180 or 210) is reasonable.

[tidge]

Of course, Terrify is also a level 22 pick with a lower base accuracy than the level 8 Seeds of Confusion.

 

I can sort of see what the Live Devs were trying for with Plant Control(*1), as a set... yet it doesn't mean I'm still not shocked that a single power (Seeds) it is superior (effectively, IMO) to both the level 8 Confuse (more targets, same base duration, albeit with lower base accuracy and a higher endurance cost) and the level 26 Mass Confusion. Don't forget that prior to I27p5, the T9 power picks came even later for everybody (level 32 on primaries).

 

(*1) and I'm not ignoring this was a subscribe-or-buy power set. As noted by @Psyonico, Seeds is 100% mitigation, and also a means of delivering damage (when multiple targets are hit) to clear spawns faster.

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

Do we all still agree that Seeds of Confusion is the elephant in the room?

 

If we simply move Seeds of Confusion to the Regeneration power set, we can nerf it with impunity.  Make it so.

 

 

[Seed22]

How did we go from make a meh T9 into something actually useable to “Seeds is pretty busted huh?” 
 

I’m sure Seeds is going to get nerfed to be as bad as MC’s T9. Honestly I say why stop there? Get that nerf bat in full swing. There’s a lot of playable sets that need a nerfin to get to the new tier HC’s aiming for.

 

I’m not being passive aggressive or snarky in this. I’m deadly serious. Get that nerf bat into full swing. I think it’d be funny as hell and I wanna see what it’ll take to break the metaphorical camal’s back that is this community

[arcane]

The only reason any decent player would refer to Mass Confusion as not “useable” is because Seeds of Confusion is overpowered as hell and unfairly raises the bar for less broken AoE confuses. Imagine thinking Mass Confusion is actually bad. Ridiculous.