Toggles Dropping

[JKCarrier]

I've been having some Endurance issues on my current Scrapper (my own fault for taking all those Fighting and Leadership pool powers, I guess). And it reminded me of something I always wondered about.

Every so often, I'll be in a situation where I'm not paying enough attention to my blue bar, and I'll hear that dreaded alert sound that means you've run out of Endurance. Followed by the even-more-dreaded sound of toggles de-toggling. But I notice that it's not consistent; sometimes all my toggles will drop, sometimes it'll just be one of them, and sometimes it's some number in-between.

So I was just curious: Is there some factor that determines how many toggles shut off, or is it random?

[Ukase]

An excellent question! I wish I had an accurate answer. 

 

[lemming]

I think it depends on how the timing is with your recovery.

I find the highest cost powers are the ones most often detoggled first and the lower cost powers might then get a break by being checked after a recovery tick allowing them to not shut down.  There's definitely a random component involved.

 

I've found Unbreakable Guard invaluable for end management since just two slots gives an end discount.

[Doomguide2005]

@lemminghas the most right of it as I recall seeing a much better and more detailed answer in the old Retail/Live forums.  It has to do with server tics both when you pay end costs and when you get end back and the dance between them.  It's how Green Machine Empaths back in the day of actual crashing Nukes could nuke and not lose any toggles or only a few.  They would often sit at (and well beyond) the recovery caps owing to both Adrenaline Boost and often multiple Recovery Auras all being active when the Nuke was fired.  I have literally had my own GM fire their Nuke look down and in that space of a what seemed like a few seconds or so a solid quarter or more of my end bar has already refilled and hits max in only a few seconds more.  Meanwhile I'd be turning the one Leadership toggle that dropped, if any of them did, back on.

 

PS:  The better your recovery rate the more likely what you see happen will happen basically.

Edited Wednesday at 06:44 PM by Doomguide2005

[Psyonico]

29 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

It has to do with server tics both when you pay end costs

 

This is it exactly.  Toggles don't all cost endurance at the same rate.  So if you bottom out of endurance, they will detoggle in the order that they tic.

[Snarky]

rather than looking deep into the abyss of random detoggling when the blue runs out...

 

i offer this.  In Health, the PROCS from sets Panacea, Miracle, and Numina.  In Stamina, Perf Shift PROC, Perf Shifter EndMod, and Invention Origin EndMod.  

 

This will solve 90-95% of ALL characters endurance issue.  Expensive?  In terms of using slots and buying Enhancers?  Maybe...   But you will probably never just bottom out Blue and sit there thinking....  "Maybe Snarky was right....."

 

 

 

[OEM61]

I think it is just a matter of whether the endurance is there when its needed.

When a power is ready to charge you its endurance cost it goes to get it.  If the endurance is there then it stays on for another cycle, if not then it drops.

Higher cost powers will drop more often because as your endurance approaches zero you will be ever less likely to have enough to feed them.

The real low-cost powers will have to time out just right, but it can still happen.

Maybe I am wrong here, but that is what makes sense to me.

EDIT:  If multiple toggles all 'hit' at the same time I do not know if there is some specific order to 'feeding' them.

Edited Wednesday at 10:05 PM by OEM61

[Doomguide2005]

41 minutes ago, Snarky said:

rather than looking deep into the abyss of random detoggling when the blue runs out...

 

i offer this.  In Health, the PROCS from sets Panacea, Miracle, and Numina.  In Stamina, Perf Shift PROC, Perf Shifter EndMod, and Invention Origin EndMod.  

 

This will solve 90-95% of ALL characters endurance issue.  Expensive?  In terms of using slots and buying Enhancers?  Maybe...   But you will probably never just bottom out Blue and sit there thinking....  "Maybe Snarky was right....."

 

 

 

I'd add that at least most of your attacks need endred enhancement but for something going bump in the night the Snarky one has some ancient insights that are worth following as well.

[Jacke]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

In Stamina, Perf Shift PROC, Perf Shifter EndMod, and Invention Origin EndMod. 

 

In Stamina, I'd stay with 3 Slots total, but put in Synapse's Shock EndMod and EndMod/RunSpeed, with in the 3rd Slot either Performance Shifter +End Proc or Power Transfer +Heal Proc (if can put in 4 Slots total, both).  That gives a great +RunSpeed buff as well as usually enough +Rec +End.

[Snarky]

12 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

In Stamina, I'd stay with 3 Slots total, but put in Synapse's Shock EndMod and EndMod/RunSpeed, with in the 3rd Slot either Performance Shifter +End Proc or Power Transfer +Heal Proc (if can put in 4 Slots total, both).  That gives a great +RunSpeed buff as well as usually enough +Rec +End.

it is a tiny difference but you will get more end out of my way (very small) and i fly nearly everywhere.  seriously.  fly is always on.  so.... i need blue lololol

[Doomguide2005]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

it is a tiny difference but you will get more end out of my way (very small) and i fly nearly everywhere.  seriously.  fly is always on.  so.... i need blue lololol

Yeah!  Give me Fly and Evasive Maneuvers my fliers are happy, particularly my main Empath who can move very quickly and precisely about the battlefield.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, OEM61 said:

I think it is just a matter of whether the endurance is there when its needed.

When a power is ready to charge you its endurance cost it goes to get it.  If the endurance is there then it stays on for another cycle, if not then it drops.

Higher cost powers will drop more often because as your endurance approaches zero you will be ever less likely to have enough to feed them.

The real low-cost powers will have to time out just right, but it can still happen.

Maybe I am wrong here, but that is what makes sense to me.

EDIT:  If multiple toggles all 'hit' at the same time I do not know if there is some specific order to 'feeding' them.

More or less what I was eluding to.  Basically on each server tic things happen and you gain or lose end.  What higher rates of recovery mean is more 'server tics' in a given time you need to fully recover.  At least afaik it's something along those lines.  And of course these days we 'cheat' a bit I think when things like Panacea and Perf Shifter the whole chunk of end comes back at once each time the proc fires.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

More or less what I was eluding to.  Basically on each server tic things happen and you gain or lose end.  What higher rates of recovery mean is more 'server tics' in a given time you need to fully recover.  At least afaik it's something along those lines.  And of course these days we 'cheat' a bit I think when things like Panacea and Perf Shifter the whole chunk of end comes back at once each time the proc fires.

Another great thing about PROC end recovery. (Besides being over and above what is normal or enhanceable) is when your end rec is debuffed…the procs keep feeding you blue

[JKCarrier]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

In Health, the PROCS from sets Panacea, Miracle, and Numina.  In Stamina, Perf Shift PROC, Perf Shifter EndMod, and Invention Origin EndMod.  

Got all of those already, except the Perf Shifter EndMod...I slotted a second IO EndMod instead. I had like 7 different toggles running, which was just overkill. This character just hit 50, so I'm ready to retire him, but I'll try the extra Perf Shifter on the next one.

Thanks for the answers, everyone! Just one of those odd things you see in game that was bugging me. Now I know...

[Sanguinesun]

10 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

I've been having some Endurance issues on my current Scrapper (my own fault for taking all those Fighting and Leadership pool powers, I guess). And it reminded me of something I always wondered about.

Every so often, I'll be in a situation where I'm not paying enough attention to my blue bar, and I'll hear that dreaded alert sound that means you've run out of Endurance. Followed by the even-more-dreaded sound of toggles de-toggling. But I notice that it's not consistent; sometimes all my toggles will drop, sometimes it'll just be one of them, and sometimes it's some number in-between.

So I was just curious: Is there some factor that determines how many toggles shut off, or is it random?

 

Toggles have an endurance numeric associated with them. A fee if you will as you already likely understand.  

 

Said fee is exacted at specific timed intervals of that toggle.

 

Your recovery naturally(or stamina etc enhanced) then also has a timed deposit that it enables.

 

Your typical attacks or other end usage powers that arent toggles all have their own separate end numerical values that those end fees are exacted from your end pool (bar).

 

This then becomes a recipe, depending on your actions that will cause all or only certain toggles to detoggle.

 

This then is further compounded mathematically by factors from mobs:  end drain and recovery debuffing.

 

 

This is why it is, on the surface, rather difficult for the typical player on the fly to account for the variables that cause XYZ toggles to drop and others to not or for all to drop.

[Doomguide2005]

14 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Toggles have an endurance numeric associated with them. A fee if you will as you already likely understand.  

 

Said fee is exacted at specific timed intervals of that toggle.

 

Your recovery naturally(or stamina etc enhanced) then also has a timed deposit that it enables.

 

Your typical attacks or other end usage powers that arent toggles all have their own separate end numerical values that those end fees are exacted from your end pool (bar).

 

This then becomes a recipe, depending on your actions that will cause all or only certain toggles to detoggle.

 

This then is further compounded mathematically by factors from mobs:  end drain and recovery debuffing.

 

 

This is why it is, on the surface, rather difficult for the typical player on the fly to account for the variables that cause XYZ toggles to drop and others to not or for all to drop.

I'd say close to impossible.  It would likely entail, at utter minimum, a script to do the monitoring, to even come close.  Best is to never get there.  Slot endred in attacks (your single largest loss by far 99% of the time), use those procs Snarky talks about and a number of temps are available if needed.  Plus things I'm sure others could add or go into detail about.  

[SeraphimKensai]

On 11/20/2024 at 8:33 PM, JKCarrier said:

I had like 7 different toggles running, which was just overkill. This character just hit 50, so I'm ready to retire him, but I'll try the extra Perf Shifter on the next one.

Just wait til you get around to making a Dark Armor/Stone Melee Tanker, and are running 13 toggles, and using high endurance costing attacks.

[Etched]

Surprisingly,  no one mentions incarnates. Particularly Cardiac 40% end reduction is a great way of beating down the high cost of end on all powers is outstanding IMO.

 

I'll admit I get this on all my toons. Very helpful. 

[Mopery]

15 minutes ago, Etched said:

Surprisingly,  no one mentions incarnates. Particularly Cardiac 40% end reduction is a great way of beating down the high cost of end on all powers is outstanding IMO.

 

I'll admit I get this on all my toons. Very helpful. 

My Dark/Elec Tank runs 13 toggles and, thanks to Cardiac Alpha, rarely has end problems anymore! 😁