Group Fly Immunity as an option

[biostem]

It's frustrating, because while most of us here know to go to Null and take care of the issue for our own characters, there isn't really anything, (other than asking around), for new players to address this on their own...

[Lunar Ronin]

43 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's frustrating, because while most of us here know to go to Null and take care of the issue for our own characters, there isn't really anything, (other than asking around), for new players to address this on their own...

 

It's usually not new players complaining.  It's usually people who know that the Null the Gull option exists, but feel that they shouldn't have to use it anyway.

[AlwaysAPrice]

3 hours ago, TheMoncrief said:

OK, I appear to have lit a fire.

 

Would it be possible to have it default to player immunity instead? So you can go to Null to be able to have Group Fly work on you, but by default it will only work with the user's pets? I do have a few characters where I would situationally like Group Fly to work for me - such as non-flying melee DPS in the aforementioned mito runs in a Hamidon raid, but those situations are very much the exception. Even that's pretty rare, usually I'll just buy a jet pack from START.

 

I'll be truly shocked if the response to this modified suggestion is a torrent of people strenuously objecting to such a change because Group Fly is perfect in its current state and the change would ruin it. I do get how it would feel weird to have a power that by default doesn't actually do anything, but Group Fly is a very exceptional power already in terms of its unpopularity.

 

Honestly, as a lover of Group Fly, I'd totally welcome this change even if it wouldn't be my ideal approach. The current implementation produces a lot of sometimes quite valid whining that I'm always worried will lead to changes to a power I like just fine the way it is. If it was off by default no new characters would ever have to experience that jarring moment of loss of agency that leads to said kvetching in the first place and these threads would quickly dry up. People who aren't frustrated by the mechanic could go turn it on to continue experiencing it in the wild, and people who would be bothered by it would just never realize it's there in the first place.

[biostem]

I wonder how the Null immunity actually works - does it grant you a power that specifically counters group fly, does it apply a -fly effect that only triggers when it detects group fly as being on you?  Knowing this might help to address what can or cannot be done...

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, biostem said:

I wonder how the Null immunity actually works - does it grant you a power that specifically counters group fly, does it apply a -fly effect that only triggers when it detects group fly as being on you?  Knowing this might help to address what can or cannot be done...

According to the Live devs when it was added to Null the Gull, it adds a hidden power that negates Group Fly as a power capable of affecting the character. Which is part of the reason why Group Fly is still an opt out power rather than an opt in one. (Aside from the power being an opt in completely negates the power itself for its function. Can you imagine taking Group Fly and finding out it doesn't actually make anyone other than yourself fly? Instead of the forums being inundated with Group Fly option threads, you'd see the Bug Reports forum filled with players saying Group Fly doesn't even work, that it is just a slower, more expensive Fly power. [Edit: And I would almost be willing to wager that players using Group Fly for their MMs would suddenly find themselves having to go to Null the Gull to enable Group Fly on themselves so their pets would be affected by it. Since it would by default not apply to anyone other than the using character as an opt in system. So definitely would be a lot of upset, confused players about Group Fly 'not working'. Or having to go to Null the Gull to make Group Fly actually a group flight power. (Edit yet again, again: Hells, as an opt in system, they may need to go to Null the Gull to remove the hidden power to even let Group Fly work on their own character despite taking the power themselves.)])

 

Edited November 23 by Rudra
Edited again to change "them" to "themselves". And yet again to add last sentence.

[srmalloy]

16 hours ago, Greycat said:

Even giving MMs "pet fly" by default as an inherent- yes, it means they get a free travel power and we'd likely start seeing 20 threads a week on THAT subject - I'd be for.

I'm not sure that handing it out as an inherent is necessary; a cleaner implementation would be to make your travel power encompass your pets -- so if you took Fly, your pets would automatically fly with you, without needing Group Fly as a separate power choice. Similarly, Teleport would pull your pets with you; I'm not sure how to make Super Speed or Super Jump work properly, given the sometimes pessimal pathing of pets, but these should spill over as well.

 

16 hours ago, Greycat said:

As a side note, for masterminds (and you can almost limit it further to ranged MMs, like 'bots, since it doesn't really mesh with melee based,) it's also a matter of protecting their minions, not just moving them around.

It's only for one month out of the year, but there is the standing annoyance during the Halloween event of one to four Bots MMs, each with Group Fly activated, parking in the middle of the courtyard at the murder motel with their bots on Aggressive/Follow and going AFK for hours, relying on the group working the motel to knock on doors for their bots to aggro on and attack while staying up in the air away from the vast majority of the aggro, sucking XP and drops away from the league members who are actually doing the work to supply the AFK MMs with mobs to defeat.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

 

It's only for one month out of the year, but there is the standing annoyance during the Halloween event of one to four Bots MMs, each with Group Fly activated, parking in the middle of the courtyard at the murder motel with their bots on Aggressive/Follow and going AFK for hours, relying on the group working the motel to knock on doors for their bots to aggro on and attack while staying up in the air away from the vast majority of the aggro, sucking XP and drops away from the league members who are actually doing the work to supply the AFK MMs with mobs to defeat.

 

And that was specifically addressed with the code of conduct (I believe it was the COC, at least, but I do remember this specifically coming up) changes to acceptable vs not AFK / multibox behaviour.

 

Now, whether the enforcement was done acceptably or not... I can't say, I didn't TOT much. (I get burned out on it so fast it's ridiculous.) But that'd be something to take up with the GMs.

[srmalloy]

12 minutes ago, Greycat said:

And that was specifically addressed with the code of conduct (I believe it was the COC, at least, but I do remember this specifically coming up) changes to acceptable vs not AFK / multibox behaviour.

And the person/persons doing this will claim/have claimed, when bearded on the subject, to whatever degree of validity their claim has, that they were specifically told by a GM that what they're doing is acceptable and refuse to desist.

Edited November 23 by srmalloy

[tidge]

On 11/22/2024 at 3:42 PM, Laucianna said:

Awww shit, here we go again 😄

 

I am starting to question why it takes less effort to start a thread about Group Fly than it does to visit Null the Gull.

[Ghost]

17 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I am starting to question why it takes less effort to start a thread about Group Fly than it does to visit Null the Gull.

I went to Null and opted back into group fly, just so I know if someone is using it and I can kick them from my team

😈😈😈

 

#banMMs

[ZacKing]

On 11/22/2024 at 9:58 PM, Lunar Ronin said:

It's usually not new players complaining.  It's usually people who know that the Null the Gull option exists, but feel that they shouldn't have to use it anyway.

 

That's true, but it isn't that simple.  One person's power picks shouldn't prevent another players powers from working properly, which is what group fly can do.  I don't know why the Null options for Tarot Card, Group Fly and Speed Boost can't be added to the START vendor.  There's already a couple of items in there to disable all powers and such.  That way these options are available in the tutorial and in the starting zones soon as a new character is made.  Saves everyone a trip to Pocket D at least and can be done right from the get go.  Most people are grabbing all the P2W powers at the START vendor right in Outbreak anyway. 

[Kistulot]

18 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

That's true, but it isn't that simple.  One person's power picks shouldn't prevent another players powers from working properly, which is what group fly can do.  I don't know why the Null options for Tarot Card, Group Fly and Speed Boost can't be added to the START vendor.  There's already a couple of items in there to disable all powers and such.  That way these options are available in the tutorial and in the starting zones soon as a new character is made.  Saves everyone a trip to Pocket D at least and can be done right from the get go.  Most people are grabbing all the P2W powers at the START vendor right in Outbreak anyway. 

 

You're playing a team game. Literally every character has a chance to impact how you play. Knockback. Buffs. Debuffs. Rooting the enemy. Someone killing that enemy as you were about to with a long animation. Someone using a wakie before you can venge off of them.

 

I'm not saying it might not be better to put the option in START or something, make it clear it's there in a pop-up tutorial... but this argument is not one that, imho, holds a lot of merit. If anything, I think it's a good argument to turn this around to what I think is the real problem as we play a game that will ever be  improved.

 

I feel like acknowledging that this is a game being played with other people and we should make efforts to be calm, patient, and understanding with things we don't like would go really far. We could even still ask for changes to things with a rationale that is inherently individualistic in a team game.

 

Also if you just wanna hit the ground running, Outbreak is immensely slow, and making me click past the tutorial every time is barely more clicks than going to null, and I go to pocket D or a START vendor anyway.

[ZacKing]

4 hours ago, Kistulot said:

You're playing a team game. Literally every character has a chance to impact how you play. Knockback. Buffs. Debuffs. Rooting the enemy. Someone killing that enemy as you were about to with a long animation. Someone using a wakie before you can venge off of them.

 

I understand your point here and don't necessarily think you're wrong, however I'm not sure comparing beneficial buffs like CM or Fort or FS are the same things as group fly preventing you from using powers like Burn and such.  Yes, this is a team game and we should be courteous toward other players.  If a group asks you to turn off group fly because its disrupting everyone else, you can oblige or leave. 

 

4 hours ago, Kistulot said:

Also if you just wanna hit the ground running, Outbreak is immensely slow, and making me click past the tutorial every time is barely more clicks than going to null, and I go to pocket D or a START vendor anyway.

 

Not everyone skips the tutorial, but I'm happy that we can.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I'm going to ask again since no one was able to answer my question before: "What benefit does Group Fly give you that makes it worth inconveniencing all of the other people on your team?"

[Lunar Ronin]

23 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm going to ask again since no one was able to answer my question before: "What benefit does Group Fly give you that makes it worth inconveniencing all of the other people on your team?"

 

Survival and damage.

 

On Hamidon raids and the LGTF, henchmen can much more easily reach and damage the mitos.

 

On mothership raids, if you don't use Group Fly, during the pylon phase your henchmen are being essentially dragged through all of the level 54 mobs on the ground and are being massacred as a result.  Meaning that if you want your HPs back (bodyguard mode), and to do damage, you are repeatedly summoning, equipping, and upgrading your henchmen over and over and over again for ten minutes.  If they're flying, you have more health, and you do much more damage to the pylons.

 

In addition, Group Fly is needed for henchmen to hit the Rikti drop ship at all.

 

For the third and fourth missions of the Imperious TF, it's the same as the pylon phase of the MSR essentially.  Survival and damage.

 

Telling a Mastermind to turn off Group Fly during these scenarios is essentially telling a Scrapper to turn off half of his or her toggles and stop using half of his or her attacks.

That would be silly wouldn't it?

[Excraft]

3 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Survival and damage.

 

And what if your use of Group Fly is negatively impacting the survival and damage of everyone else on the team?  Or doesn't that matter? 

 

4 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Meaning that if you want your HPs back (bodyguard mode), and to do damage, you are repeatedly summoning, equipping, and upgrading your henchmen over and over and over again for ten minutes.

 

That's part of playing a MM though.

[Lunar Ronin]

Just now, Excraft said:

 

And what if your use of Group Fly is negatively impacting the survival and damage of everyone else on the team?  Or doesn't that matter? 

 

 

That's part of playing a MM though.

 

It only negatively impacts the survival and damage of other people if they refuse to take the less than two minutes to talk with Null the Gull.  If they're too lazy to do that, not my problem.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

On Hamidon raids and the LGTF, henchmen can much more easily reach and damage the mitos.

Every melee henchmen pet I've had had no problem jumping up to any of the mitos and none of the ranged henchmen pets I've had needed Group Fly to be effective against the mitos. Especially if you stay on the ground away from the fliers swarming the mitos.

 

8 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

On mothership raids, if you don't use Group Fly, during the pylon phase your henchmen are being essentially dragged through all of the level 54 mobs on the ground and are being massacred as a result.  Meaning that if you want your HPs back (bodyguard mode), and to do damage, you are repeatedly summoning, equipping, and upgrading your henchmen over and over and over again for ten minutes.  If they're flying, you have more health, and you do much more damage to the pylons.

Never been a problem for my MMs. On the pylon portion of the raids, the pylons aren't even attacking my MM, focusing instead on the all the players meleeing it. And the other spawns in the area have their attentions split between my pets and the other players racing through the area. As long as I don't have my MM in melee range of a pylon for some reason, survivability for my MMs has never been a problem against the pylons on mothership raids.

 

8 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

In addition, Group Fly is needed for henchmen to hit the Rikti drop ship at all.

This part I wholeheartedly agree with, however, neither are you bothering anyone on the ground with Group Fly for this either. Everyone is already flying to fight it, so no one even notices if anyone is using Group Fly.

 

8 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

For the third and fourth missions of the Imperious TF, it's the same as the pylon phase of the MSR essentially.  Survival and damage.

And again, I've never seen this for ITFs. Never had a problem with MMs on any ITFs losing pets.

 

Edit: So what benefit is provided to MMs on enclosed maps like offices and caves that is so important that Group Fly has to be left on?

 

Edited November 25 by Rudra

[Excraft]

4 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

It only negatively impacts the survival and damage of other people if they refuse to take the less than two minutes to talk with Null the Gull.  If they're too lazy to do that, not my problem.

 

I see.  So long as you're ok, the other people on the team/league can go screw.  Got it.  And people wonder why MMs with group fly get kicked from teams...

[Ghost]

5 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

It only negatively impacts the survival and damage of other people if they refuse to take the less than two minutes to talk with Null the Gull.  If they're too lazy to do that, not my problem.

[Lunar Ronin]

3 minutes ago, Ghost said:

 

Yeah, I usually do wind up kicking people that continually complain about Group Fly from my teams and leagues.  Sad that it comes to that when they could have taken the two minutes to go to Pocket D, but c'est la vie.

[Excraft]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So what benefit is provided to MMs on enclosed maps like offices and caves that is so important that Group Fly has to be left on?

 

Bots look cool with rocket boots?

[Ghost]

9 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Yeah, I usually do wind up kicking people that continually complain about Group Fly from my teams and leagues.  Sad that it comes to that when they could have taken the two minutes to go to Pocket D, but c'est la vie.

Then we in the same boat.

I purposely invite MMs with group fly to my TFs just so I can kick them.

Much faster to kick than to visit null.  

[Lunar Ronin]

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Every melee henchmen pet I've had had no problem jumping up to any of the mitos and none of the ranged henchmen pets I've had needed Group Fly to be effective against the mitos. Especially if you stay on the ground away from the fliers swarming the mitos.

 

Never been a problem for my MMs. On the pylon portion of the raids, the pylons aren't even attacking my MM, focusing instead on the all the players meleeing it. And the other spawns in the area have their attentions split between my pets and the other players racing through the area. As long as I don't have my MM in melee range of a pylon for some reason, survivability for my MMs has never been a problem against the pylons on mothership raids.

 

This part I wholeheartedly agree with, however, neither are you bothering anyone on the ground with Group Fly for this either. Everyone is already flying to fight it, so no one even notices if anyone is using Group Fly.

 

And again, I've never seen this for ITFs. Never had a problem with MMs on any ITFs losing pets.

 

Edit: So what benefit is provided to MMs on enclosed maps like offices and caves that is so important that Group Fly has to be left on?

 

 

I have seen Bruisers, Ninjas, Demons, and Zombies try to jump to a mito, miss, and then jump again.  Doesn't always happen of course, but I have seen enough of it.

 

I don't know what to tell you regarding MSRs and ITFs.  I have certainly done more than enough of both on both live and Homecoming to see henchmen get continually shredded by mobs during the pylon phase and during parts of the ITF that they survive much more easily with Group Fly.

 

I don't use Group Fly indoors, only on outdoor maps where it helps henchmen either survive or do damage, (usually both).

[Ghost]

Okay, time for a serious question.

 

When group fly is activated, does it only affect teammates within a certain distance of the user?  Or everyone, regardless of map location?