Dismissive, and Troll Encouraging Behavior

[Kistulot]

Hello,

 

I would like to raise the issue that as raised in this post below... I feel there is a definite issue between the community and the people running homecoming.  I realize this will come off as shit stirring, but please hear me out.

 

The thread about the request received no GM reply. It was open for far longer. Additionally, I sent in a ticket first as advised by someone over on Discord, only to be told to post about it...

 

...while a policy was already up to not perform memorials.

 

This is essentially the equivalent of being transferred around departments only to find out from someone saying that your premise was flawed to get an answer on your situation.

 

It's infuriating.

 

Additionally, it seems clear that those with authority are much more willing to engage with people who are shooting things down, and generally acting without empathy towards the greater community. This may be somewhat subjective, and it would likely be fair to find many examples that are otherwise...

 

But to simply say "The question's been answered! :)" and close the thread when the topic of "we could look into something else" was brought up yet the response to it was utterly ignored feels much more like "We're done listening to you now :)"

 

The response reads very loudly as "we said that to be diplomatic, but we're not really interested in discussing this further."

 

If someone was seen as going too far, then that should have been stated. If there was no interest in continuing the discussion, that should have been stated. Closing a topic because the literal subject line was answered while not addressing any of the underlying, continuing discussion, only further emphasizes a desire to sit behind an opaque wall.

 

Again, I'm disappointed by the no, but I'm more disappointed by the disingenuous reply, and the further handling of the thread.

[Kistulot]

I would also like to note something: A majority of players do not use the forums.

 

That's simply true.

 

The forums as the primary considered method for interaction is not only archaic, but when the feeling of division is so dramatic, it discourages posting--much like when people who are acting in bad faith or simply not wishing to engage in an open way are responded to while people making heartfelt requests are suggested the wrong direction...

 

...then ignored.

[ZacKing]

If I can be honest, I really don't think calling the Council members and GMs "trolls" is going to go the way you think it is.  I think we can all understand you are upset over the loss of your friend and can sympathize with you, but that isn't an excuse for you to go on an angry tirade against the people running the show.  This isn't going to end well for you.  You may want to quit while you're ahead.

 

I'm sorry your request to add your friend as an NPC into the game got denied.  I do think it's the right call though. 

 

[Rudra]

The GMs don't keep track of everything the devs or the players post. So if you were directed on Discord to submit a ticket in game, and the ticket is something the responding GM cannot handle himself/herself/themselves, the GM will direct the player to post a bug report or a suggestion on the forums. It isn't their job to keep abreast of everything the devs have decided or implemented. Most GMs are just other players that have been granted greater in game permissions to help resolve in game issues we may encounter. On the forums, the GMs try to stay out of our discussions as much as possible unless someone is engaging in troll behavior, our disputes get out of hand, or some other activity requires their intervention. The discussions themselves are left to us players. If a GM or a player knows a dev/game policy that may be relevant to the discussion, we will normally provide that data. The devs do their best to stay out of our discussions, though they do read the forum posts, unless they feel they need to be involved. This lets them get a feel for how their policies are being received and see how the player base active on the forums approach whatever the topic of discussion is. That is not the devs choosing to ignore us.

[Glacier Peak]

When discussion is no longer courtesy or respectful, or it's obvious the person on the other side of the screen just wants someone else to feel as terrible as they do, I recommend just not engaging. Every person that uses this forum has access to tools to limit how others interact with them. The ignore feature works well - so does sending a message to someone and asking that they refrain from interacting with you. Obviously there's submitting a support ticket and getting GMs involved, but a lot of the issues that GMs have to deal with can be resolved by the individuals using these tools. 

 

Code of Conduct

 

Help us help you:

• If you encounter a negative person please block or ignore them; do not escalate the situation by engaging them yourselves. If their behaviour continues, please report them (see ‘Violations and Consequences’ below).

 

Edited December 16 by Glacier Peak

[Snarky]

As a slightly paranoid and slightly ocd type who is NOT a genius like tv people Monk or Sheldon…. I have struggled with many of these types of personal interactions.  Let me just say that you should never assign malice to something that might be indifference or ignorance or laziness.  It is rarely malice.   
 

This, unfortunately, puts the responsibility on YOU to find out all the information, determine if another solution is possible/likely, then either implement that yourself or make the decision to adjust ti some form of acceptance and move on.  Or don’t.  I was a wild advocate for boycotting all S Korean products to anyone who would bother to listen for years after a certain event.  I do not think anyone gave a crap but me.  

[ScarySai]

Yeah, the forum GM team's conduct of late has been essentially a bad joke since early last year. I'm mostly resigned to it being an unsolvable issue, there's nothing that could realistically be done about it. Can't go to the proverbial manager if they're in on it, and I witnessed some profoundly stupid behavior from the lead GM earlier in the year that didn't breed much confidence.

 

Which is a shame because I like a lot of the GMs, but none of those people seem to handle the whole "dealing with idiot trolls on the site" issue.

 

Ideally, they would action consistent trolls and have the ability to recognize trends, but that's apparently too much to ask. I highly doubt they personally know the people causing the problems, which makes this thing where it really seems like they are actively defending bad actors profoundly confusing to me.

 

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

I really don't think calling the Council members and GMs "trolls" is going to go the way you think it is. 

 

Actioning her over it would prove her right, lol. They enable bad behavior by actioning the people responding to the trolls rather than the trolls themselves.

Edited December 16 by ScarySai

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Actioning her over it would prove her right, lol.

Yeah yeah... We've heard this song before;  They're meanies for not implementing what someone wants, they're meanies for giving an answer to a question, (if that answer isn't what you wanted to hear), and if they take action in response to a person bringing up an issue they made a decision on and said was over...  🥱

[ScarySai]

She isn't mad she was told 'no', genius.

 

 

 

Edited December 16 by ScarySai

[biostem]

Now address my other points...

[Indystruck]

Dude over here dressed in trash bags yelling about challenging him in open combat here, in the field of ideas.

[ScarySai]

You didn't even make one, you just kinda said things and hoped Rudra would tell you you're funny.

 

But hey, I won't derail this thread like every single one your assumed friend group here touches. We can debate the merits of any arguments you might have in PMs where the GMs can't bail you out, if you're brave enough.

Edited December 16 by ScarySai

[biostem]

LOL!  Edits out derogatory and baiting language, then accuses others of cowardice.  Classic move!

[Indystruck]

He edited more in actually.

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

LOL!  Edits out derogatory and baiting language, then accuses others of cowardice.  Classic move!

 

You got two brain cells fighting for third place, man.

[biostem]

Ad hom - when you can't argue the points.

[Indystruck]

You couldn't read the post, why would anyone argue the points you pulled from the ether.

[Super Atom]

I'm just gonna be blunt and say it and eat a ban if i need to.

 

Greycat's post receiving an answer from Staff instead of being locked and him warned/banned is fucking gross and honestly upsetting. Someone made a harmless request in attempt to honor their friend who passed away and Greycats answer was to be toxic about it and dismissive of people wanting to honor their friends. Do better.

 

and I'm not going to spend 20 posts explaining basic human empathy to the 7k club.

 

 

Edited December 16 by Super Atom

[ScarySai]

"The earth is flat."

 

"We're not talking about flat earthers, idiot."

 

"Ah, but you haven't debated the merits of my other points." 
 

???

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

and I'm not going to spend 20 posts explaining basic human empathy to the 7k club.

You could spend 20,000 posts on the topic and they still wouldn’t get it.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I'm just gonna be blunt and say it and eat a ban if i need to.

 

Greycat's post receiving an answer from Staff instead of being locked and him warned/banned is fucking gross and honestly upsetting. Someone made a harmless request in attempt to honor their friend who passed away and Greycats answer was to be toxic about it and dismissive of people wanting to honor their friends. Do better.

 

and I'm not going to spend 20 posts explaining basic human empathy to the 7k club.

 

 

What does the number of posts a player has made have to do with anything?

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

 Let me just say that you should never assign malice to something that might be indifference or ignorance or laziness.  It is rarely malice.  

 

It's still not a good look. I doubt this particular case was inherently malicious, but the fact they lacked the awareness to go "Hey, maybe we should respond to the memorial request in the thread requesting it." and instead chose to enable the person essentially yelling "Get off my lawn" at the funeral is a HORRIFIC look. 

 

He made it about him and got exactly what he wanted.

 

I can't imagine anyone who actually knew the person is looking at that in a positive light. That's such a bad look it's like something you'd see in a comedy.

Edited December 16 by ScarySai

[Kistulot]

  

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

If I can be honest, I really don't think calling the Council members and GMs "trolls" is going to go the way you think it is.  I think we can all understand you are upset over the loss of your friend and can sympathize with you, but that isn't an excuse for you to go on an angry tirade against the people running the show.  This isn't going to end well for you.  You may want to quit while you're ahead.

To clarify, I was not calling the Council members or GMs trolls. I was saying that their behaviors were encouraging such behavior.

 

I feel that this is important.

 

If it ends poorly for me, I feel that reflects as much on others as it does on me, and I'm ok with that.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The GMs don't keep track of everything the devs or the players post. So if you were directed on Discord to submit a ticket in game, and the ticket is something the responding GM cannot handle himself/herself/themselves, the GM will direct the player to post a bug report or a suggestion on the forums. It isn't their job to keep abreast of everything the devs have decided or implemented.

If the desire is to act like a clean, crisp, opaque company then I'm sorry, but yes, it is their job to know what the policies are on things and have them clearly deliniated. Now, do I think this could be a learning experience and they could adjust this?

Yes.

 

That said, I think this is the equivalent of calling for customer support for a broken iMac, being told to go to the Apple Store, and you wait around to be helped after describing the issue only for someone else saying that your issue shouldn't be attended to and they're agreed with.

 

Sorry, but that's really not what I call professional,  or good community building.

 

You are free, of course, to disagree as you seem very wont to do.

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

As a slightly paranoid and slightly ocd type who is NOT a genius like tv people Monk or Sheldon…. I have struggled with many of these types of personal interactions.  Let me just say that you should never assign malice to something that might be indifference or ignorance or laziness.  It is rarely malice.  

I'm not calling it outright malice. I'm calling out the issues that I feel are harmful. Harm does not indicate intent: it indicates results. You have a very good point though, people are not trying to cause harm here. I believe that firmly. If I felt there was no point in having this discussion, then I wouldn't be having it... and that means I believe people can be reasoned with! 🙂

 

...I basically just thought out loud, but you gave a thoughtful reply so I felt you deserved a thoughtful response!

 

59 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Yeah, the forum GM team's conduct of late has been essentially a bad joke since early last year. I'm mostly resigned to it being an unsolvable issue, there's nothing that could realistically be done about it. Can't go to the proverbial manager if they're in on it, and I witnessed some profoundly stupid behavior from the lead GM earlier in the year that didn't breed much confidence.

 

I don't go onto the forums long enough to really be able to comment on that, but I will say that I have had multiple people who do in private express that there are bad actors being ignored... and I believe we can see some in this discussion. If it's unresolveable, then as far as I see it making it clear as day to everyone is the only solution. That said? I want to try to make things better. I want to try to push for the changes this community needs to be sustainable.

 

Because, frankly, getting NCSoft's okay isn't really enough to keep people around.

 

We were here before it.

 

We didn't care then.

 

If the trust in the GMs and Devs dissolves completely, at a certain point, you get real competition. This isn't a situation where no one else has the ability to do so.

 

...plus, like... I believe the best in people, even if it may not seem it. I believe that pointing out issues is the only way they can be fixed, but it doesnt mean I think that anyone can't change their actions going forward.

 

56 minutes ago, biostem said:

Yeah yeah... We've heard this song before;  They're meanies for not implementing what someone wants, they're meanies for giving an answer to a question, (if that answer isn't what you wanted to hear), and if they take action in response to a person bringing up an issue they made a decision on and said was over...  🥱

 

As said by others, I know the post is long but if you want to respond to it?

 

Please read it.

 

29 minutes ago, biostem said:

Ad hom - when you can't argue the points.

 

This isn't debate club. If you want to annoy people and not have an actual conversation, they're going to point it out, and they may not feel the need to do it in a defensible way like I am because I feel like the moment I make a single mistake my entire discussion will be derailed.

 

29 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I'm just gonna be blunt and say it and eat a ban if i need to.

 

Greycat's post receiving an answer from Staff instead of being locked and him warned/banned is fucking gross and honestly upsetting. Someone made a harmless request in attempt to honor their friend who passed away and Greycats answer was to be toxic about it and dismissive of people wanting to honor their friends. Do better.

 

and I'm not going to spend 20 posts explaining basic human empathy to the 7k club.

 

 

 

I really appreciate your support in this matter. I could say more, but uh...

 

Thanks.

 

I appreciate you.

 

28 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

"The earth is flat."

 

"We're not talking about flat earthers, idiot."

 

"Ah, but you haven't debated the merits of my other points." 
 

???

 

Gonna be honest.

 

I laughed.

 

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What does the number of posts a player has made have to do with anything?

 

I believe they're implying that changing someone's behavior after 7k posts would be very difficult.

 

I believe, however, it is possible, if the person desires to change. That said, consistency is worth considering in situations like this.

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

It's still not a good look. I doubt this particular case was inherently malicious, but the fact they lacked the awareness to go "Hey, maybe we should respond to the memorial request in the thread requesting it." and instead chose to enable the person essentially yelling "Get off my lawn" at the funeral is a HORRIFIC look. 

 

He made it about him and got exactly what he wanted.

 

I can't imagine anyone who actually knew the person is looking at that in a positive light. That's such a bad look it's like something you'd see in a comedy.

 

This. This. This.

 

I was requesting something after being told to try requesting it here. Silence.

 

Someone else complained about the idea of someone requesting it and... I REALLY tried to take it in good faith, but the more that discussion went on the more it became clear, at least to me, that it was not, and THEY got a response while my response was effectively ignored.

 

It's at best a mishandling.

 

At worst it's, as I described in the subject title, feeding the trolls.

[Americas Angel]

The squeaky wheel always gets the grease. Sad but true. And I daresay the motive was to nip the inevitable flame war that was forming in the bud before it got any worse.

 

Widower's response, while not what many folks hoped for, was understandable. As was GooglyMoogly shutting the thread down after Greycat's request got denied. The suggestion thread had served its purpose. IMO Players are better served by starting a new thread with a new request, now that the parameters for what is potentially on offer has been provided by Widower.

 

I'm sorry you got brigadier'd against by the usual suspects. This forum has become quite an ugly place. And I can absolutely empathise with not wanting to use/promote the Fallen But Not Forgotten section due to the people that frequent this place.

 

One question that might be worth thinking about, if only to move the conversation back to something that encourages healing rather than debate: 

 

If a memorial NPC for Eildath isn't possible, what is the sort of collective memorial wall/plaque that she would approve of? By this I mean, if she was still with us, what sort of memorial for all those have died would she want to see added to the game?

 

Could be a different way of keeping her spirit alive.

 

And never say never. Back when Matthew Bragg (Kiyotee) died in 2004  I emailed everyone at Cryptic I could about it asking for him to be memorialised in the game. I refused to take silence for an answer. Eventually CR Aura sent me a very long, but very kind (I think she could tell I was young) email about how they could not add him due to company policy, and that that policy was not going to change.

 

...and yet he's standing in the tutorial today, some 20 odd years later. Still helping newbies like he did in the pre-beta board days. It's why I never do the Galaxy City tutorial. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is, it's only policy until it isn't.

 

Sorry again for your loss.

Edited December 16 by Americas Angel

[Kistulot]

6 minutes ago, Americas Angel said:

And never say never. Back when Matthew Bragg (Kiyotee) died in 2003  I emailed everyone at Cryptic I could about it asking for him to be memorialised in the game. I refused to take silence for an answer. Eventually CR Aura sent me a very long, but very kind (I think she could tell I was young) email about how they could not add him due to company policy, and that that policy was not going to change.

 

...and yet he's standing in the tutorial today, some 20 odd years later. Still helping newbies like he did in the pre-beta board days. It's why I never do the Galaxy City tutorial. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is, it's only policy until it isn't.

 

Mmm-hm! this is an inspirational story, and honestly one I feel the devs may have wished you hadn't posted!

 

It's outright encouragement to harass them until then change their minds! 😄

 

My issue is that this is not Cryptic. This is not Paragon.

 

This is a group of people who received illicit code, set up an illegal service, and were uplifted by the community. Let's not split hairs here: it was illegal. Was I happy for it? Yes. It's subsidized by the players' donations, which I believe is a good thing! At the same time, I feel like there's not the same level of separation between us and these devs, gms, and community support agents as there was on live.

 

Frankly, to twist a poor argument... I never met Kiyotee. They have absolutely no meaning to me...

 

...but I feel like the responses of someone who would rather take this opportunity to stomp something out rather than attempt to seek a way to make it reasonable are not people that should be listened to about something like this. People die every day, but they aren't all in this game. Even if there were 30 dead players a month (which, frankly, with our numbers, would mean they wouldn't need to be developing for very long) were a process designed for it all you'd need to do was just bip. bop. boop. Push.

 

If they wanted to, that could be doable.

 

A lack of desire to do so, and I already discussed why i feel their response was weak, is all that prevents it.

 

Memorials are for the living.

 

No one is harmed by a memorial that turns out to be unnecessary.

 

So on.

 

I already covered this.

 

I believe that the Outbreak tutorial getting someone there is AWESOME, and I LOVE IT. I love seeing ascendant by the telephone.

 

...but neither of them, and I say this respectfully, were a part of HOMECOMING. That's nothing I'm actually taking issue with, to clarify, I'm simply using it to make a point. Yes, they assisted in making CITY OF HEROES what it is, but Virtue and Everlasting are not the same. We have different people, different circumstances, so on and so forth.

 

The person I'm requesting--and that others are--directly impacted the game that is currently here.

 

I feel that having proof in game that can be celebrated, and denying it, is at the very least a kind of favoritism that you can't erase by saying "we wont do it anymore." That just advantages the past. It basically says "I'm sorry Eildath didn't die before the game came out, or between Live and Homecoming."

 

I can't be the only one who finds that response unsatisfying to put it mildly.

 

15 minutes ago, Americas Angel said:

Sorry again for your loss.

 

Thank you. 🙂

 

To clarify, I may have posted a long response, but it was not out of anger, or disrespect.

 

I feel you made very salient responses, and they gave me thought so I felt you deserved the same.

 

Thank you for being a part of our community.

 

You make it better.