Null da Gull Knockback

[Super Atom]

While it's fun to randomly assume specific scenarios are what people are referring to, most KB offenders I've dealt with are in double and triple digit veteran levels.

 

Very rarely in low level TF's do i see a level 15 misusing KB so frequently that anyone has to say anything. This is in part because they're low level and unslotted usually. The frequency in which they actually disrupt a low level TF is very low. It's people who have been around and should know by now not to knock enemies out of patches/auras who are doing it most. This includes low level TF's, it's usually the 50s who are the problem

Edited Saturday at 07:34 PM by Super Atom

[Stormwalker]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

I don’t think it’s true only for new players.

There are still powers in this game Ive never played.  If I suddenly decide to try one for the first time, it’s gonna take a little time to figure out a play style.

 

Remember, not all vets are altaholics.  

 

Still, when I very first created my first Energy Blaster  on Live, by the time I got to my first TF (which was Posi, the old version because that was the only version back then), I had already realized that KB was a thing that could cause problems if misused.

 

Though I will grant that I knew this partly because my very first character was a Scrapper, and I was familiar with the annoyance of having my melee target KB'd out of reach.

 

Still, the "rules of KB" I mentioned in my earlier post?  I developed those very early on.  Before I even got to Synapse.

 

Of course, talking about this causes me to realize something which may be relevant here:  the changes to the availability of powers on HC mean that Explosive Blast (which is the second-most difficult to manage power in Energy Blast behind Nova) is available at substantially earlier levels than it was on Live.  By the time you got Explosive Blast on Live, you had been given ample time to learn to manage your KB.  Much less so, now.

Edited Saturday at 08:50 PM by Stormwalker
grammar

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, Super Atom said:

While it's fun to randomly assume specific scenarios are what people are referring to, most KB offenders I've dealt with are in double and triple digit veteran levels.

 

Very rarely in low level TF's do i see a level 15 misusing KB so frequently that anyone has to say anything. This is in part because they're low level and unslotted usually. The frequency in which they actually disrupt a low level TF is very low. It's people who have been around and should know by now not to knock enemies out of patches/auras who are doing it most. This includes low level TF's, it's usually the 50s who are the problem

 

And this is also a point.

 

Managing knockback is not really a skill thing.  Turning it into a positive is a skill thing, but keeping it from being a detriment is mostly a "don't be a selfish jerk" thing.

• If a melee AT is attacking something, don't KB it.  That's rude. 
• Don't KB things into other spawns or near other spawns where someone who chases them will aggro that spawn.
• Don't scatter the pack when the party is trying to herd it.
• Don't KB stuff away from the Tanker and then ignore it so it can run around and cause havoc.

So, for the most part, a player who is disrupting parties with knockback is either:

1. A total newbie who just completely doesn't get it yet.
2. Completely oblivious to the consequences of what they are doing.
3. A selfish jerk who doesn't care that they are dragging down their team.

Those who fall in category 1 and sometimes 2 can be taught.  Those who fall in category 3 should be kicked from teams until they change their behavior.  Of course, sometimes it's not obvious which category someone falls in, which can be a problem.

 

And, as previously noted, the Synapse TF is a special case, because what you have there is typically a bunch of players who normally don't have KB (because Clockwork are weak to KB and thus turn their KD into KB) and therefore have not learned how to manage it.

[Wavicle]

Seems to me the devs could help a lot by simply ELIMINATING KNOCKBACK VULNERABILITY in mobs, such as Clockwork.

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Seems to me the devs could help a lot by simply ELIMINATING KNOCKBACK VULNERABILITY in mobs, such as Clockwork.

 

Agreed.  Or even making it so KB vulnerability doesn't turn KD into KB.

 

Originally, KD vs. KB was purely a question of magnitude.  Clearly, however, some functions like the KB ->KD IO's override that somehow.

 

Could the same mechanism be used for KB vulnerability to prevent it turning KD into KB?

Edited Saturday at 10:30 PM by Stormwalker

[Wavicle]

Power Boost doesn't even work on KB anymore because it was deemed unnecessary, so why is there a whole enemy faction that basically gives themselves that effect?!?!

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Seems to me the devs could help a lot by simply ELIMINATING KNOCKBACK VULNERABILITY in mobs, such as Clockwork.

I'd be very much against this, as this affects EVERYONE.  If you don't like knockback, that's fine.  The suggestion that it be made an option on Null the Gull means you don't have to have it.  Some of us LOVE our knockback, for various reasons, both practical and cosmetic.  Don't spoil it for everyone else.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Seems to me the devs could help a lot by simply ELIMINATING KNOCKBACK VULNERABILITY in mobs, such as Clockwork.

...after which people will bitch, moan, and whine about knockback versus regular mobs, and there will be calls to reduce knockback effects on regular mobs. And after that, people will bitch, moan, and whine about knockback versus resistant mobs, and there will be calls to reduce knockback even more. Repeat until the only option is to remove knockback entirely, at which point all development staff time goes to rebalancing all of the powers that did knockback to account for the fact that knockback is being taken out of the game, and issuing a free respec to all characters so that anyone who's chosen powers with knockback and/or slotted powers with knockback enhancements can restructure their characters...

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

...after which people will bitch, moan, and whine about knockback versus regular mobs, and there will be calls to reduce knockback effects on regular mobs. And after that, people will bitch, moan, and whine about knockback versus resistant mobs, and there will be calls to reduce knockback even more. Repeat until the only option is to remove knockback entirely, at which point all development staff time goes to rebalancing all of the powers that did knockback to account for the fact that knockback is being taken out of the game, and issuing a free respec to all characters so that anyone who's chosen powers with knockback and/or slotted powers with knockback enhancements can restructure their characters...

 

I too often fear the developers might have to develop

 

edit: I feel like i have to include im not saying they don't, im saying what he described is just development in an mmo

Edited Sunday at 02:16 AM by Super Atom

[biostem]

Simple solution:  Add in a copy of energy blast, only strip out the KB - make NO other changes, and track how players react to it - will they embrace this new set or soundly reject it?  If it starts to become popular, then maybe there's something to it...

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I'd be very much against this, as this affects EVERYONE.  If you don't like knockback, that's fine.  The suggestion that it be made an option on Null the Gull means you don't have to have it.  Some of us LOVE our knockback, for various reasons, both practical and cosmetic.  Don't spoil it for everyone else.

 

Honestly, as someone who enjoys KB when I'm soloing on my Energy blaster??  I've never found the KB vulnerability on Clockwork makes that noticeable of a difference.  Possibly because of the KB magnitude cap. 

 

By contrast, it drives me nuts when I'm on one of my Scrappers and an attack that normally deals KD does KB instead.

 

Though, for myself, I'd prefer to see a change so that KB vulnerability doesn't change KD into KB, but still increases the magnitude of actual KB, rather than just removing the vulnerability.

[Stormwalker]

58 minutes ago, biostem said:

Simple solution:  Add in a copy of energy blast, only strip out the KB - make NO other changes, and track how players react to it - will they embrace this new set or soundly reject it?  If it starts to become popular, then maybe there's something to it...

 

I suspect most people would find that without the KB to give it flavor, Energy Blast isn't a very good set.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Simple solution:  Add in a copy of energy blast, only strip out the KB - make NO other changes, and track how players react to it - will they embrace this new set or soundly reject it?  If it starts to become popular, then maybe there's something to it...

no no no.  because the dev who makes the decision has specifically stated

 

1) knockback is kewl

2) killspeed is not kewl

3) people will complain about anything

 

his logic is irrefutable.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

I suspect most people would find that without the KB to give it flavor, Energy Blast isn't a very good set.

Given the "spiciness" of this thread, I highly doubt that...

[Super Atom]

5 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

I suspect most people would find that without the KB to give it flavor, Energy Blast isn't a very good set.

 

remove kb

add more damage

 

🤔 you have a good idea here, i think we should go with this one

[Stormwalker]

31 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

remove kb

add more damage

 

🤔 you have a good idea here, i think we should go with this one

 

I'll pass, thanks.

 

If the KB was removed from Energy Blast, as I've already stated, I'd retire my Energy Blaster.  Who happens to be my favorite character.

 

Honestly, I'd seriously consider leaving Homecoming entirely and go re-create that character on some other CoH server somewhere.

 

Yes, this is that important to me.

[Stormwalker]

41 minutes ago, biostem said:

Given the "spiciness" of this thread, I highly doubt that...

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  A lot of people who don't play Energy Blast because of KB would try it... and discover that its performance is not particularly good.

 

Energy Blast is OK from a ST perspective, but its AoE is weak by Blaster standards.

 

The only reason to play Energy Blast is its flavor.  And the KB is a significant part of that flavor.

Edited Sunday at 04:10 AM by Stormwalker

[Super Atom]

2 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

I'll pass, thanks.

 

If the KB was removed from Energy Blast, as I've already stated, I'd retire my Energy Blaster.  Who happens to be my favorite character.

 

Honestly, I'd seriously consider leaving Homecoming entirely and go re-create that character on some other CoH server somewhere.

 

Yes, this is that important to me.

 

There is nothing i can reply to this comment with that wouldn't get me in trouble (not with you or about you) so im just gonna say, i feel that.

[Excraft]

3 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

I suspect most people would find that without the KB to give it flavor, Energy Blast isn't a very good set.

 

I suspect you're entirely wrong there.  I'd love a version of Energy Blast without the annoying knockback or a toggle to switch KB to KD and/or less KB in general in the game.

[Stormwalker]

47 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I suspect you're entirely wrong there.  I'd love a version of Energy Blast without the annoying knockback or a toggle to switch KB to KD and/or less KB in general in the game.

 

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying just like someone else did.

 

What I was saying is that people who decided to try such a set would discover what those of us who already play Energy Blast already know.  It's not a particularly good primary.

 

It's fun (and the KB is part of what makes it fun), but it isn't strong.

 

Also, it should be noted that the specific thing I was responding to was to a version of Energy Blast with the KB removed, not with it replaced with KD.  This means you'd lose the ability to slot Force Feedback procs in the set, which would... not help its performance.

Edited Sunday at 07:25 AM by Stormwalker

[ShardWarrior]

7 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

What I was saying is that people who decided to try such a set would discover what those of us who already play Energy Blast already know.  It's not a particularly good primary.

 

It's fun (and the KB is part of what makes it fun), but it isn't strong.

 

I very much disagree. 

 

I have several Energy blasters myself.  Energy Blast, like any other Blaster primary, has both strengths and weaknesses.  How well it performs is most dependent upon the player, followed by their build choices and then what enemy NPCs being fought as that defines how resistant they are to energy damage.  Energy Blast is going to do very well, decent or not so well against NPCs depending on what you are fighting.  To say it is not "strong" is not accurate. 

 

7 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Also, it should be noted that the specific thing I was responding to was to a version of Energy Blast with the KB removed, not with it replaced with KD.  This means you'd lose the ability to slot Force Feedback procs in the set, which would... not help its performance.

 

This seems to proceed from a very false assumption that Force Feedback is the only set that has valuable procs that can be slotted in Energy Blast.

[Skyhawke]

I'll sneak in my opinion here. Overall, KB can be a pain. For others, it sends things they may be engaging flying away. For the player, you either have to hang your head in shame or disrupt a build to put in KB-KD in multiple powers. My Peacebringer has some sort of KB-KD in almost of his powers and it does hamper things. I've got a Martial Arts Brute as well as an Archery Blaster that have a couple powers with knockback. I'm not hampering their builds for two powers. Pretty much all like a PB? Sure. For my Brute and Blaster? If I moves it, I chases it. That/those enemies now become my problem, not the teams.

 

Put my vote down as a "yes please" for a toggle for KB-KD.

[Excraft]

8 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

What I was saying is that people who decided to try such a set would discover what those of us who already play Energy Blast already know.  It's not a particularly good primary.

 

It's fun (and the KB is part of what makes it fun), but it isn't strong.

 

I disagree.  EB works fine as a primary set.  Perhaps if you are finding it to be sub-par, it may be due to build choices?  I don't know your build, so I can't say.  I think EB works fine with a good build just like any other set.

 

9 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Also, it should be noted that the specific thing I was responding to was to a version of Energy Blast with the KB removed, not with it replaced with KD.  This means you'd lose the ability to slot Force Feedback procs in the set, which would... not help its performance.

 

Again, I don't know your build, but if the one and only proc you're adding is from Forced Feedback, that could be part of your performance problem.

 

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I have several Energy blasters myself.  Energy Blast, like any other Blaster primary, has both strengths and weaknesses.  How well it performs is most dependent upon the player, followed by their build choices and then what enemy NPCs being fought as that defines how resistant they are to energy damage.  Energy Blast is going to do very well, decent or not so well against NPCs depending on what you are fighting.  To say it is not "strong" is not accurate. 

 

^100% this.

[FupDup]

In regards to procs, the only proc besides FFB that you can slot into Energy Blast is Explosive Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage. So that's 1 extra damage proc compared to sets like Arch or Fire that lack secondary effects (which are mostly limited to the PvP toxic proc and the unique Apocalypse proc, at least in their regular ST attacks). 

 

Aside from the whole KB vs KD debate, it kinda stinks how the number of procs a set can slot has such an outsized impact on a set's standing in the meta (aside from Fire Blast but that's an outlier). At this point I say we just go whole hog and add enough procs to every category so that any powerset can slot 6 without secondary effects, then we can get a more accurate baseline. 

[tidge]

18 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

So, for the most part, a player who is disrupting parties with knockback is either:

1. A total newbie who just completely doesn't get it yet.
2. Completely oblivious to the consequences of what they are doing.
3. A selfish jerk who doesn't care that they are dragging down their team.

Those who fall in category 1 and sometimes 2 can be taught.  Those who fall in category 3 should be kicked from teams until they change their behavior.  Of course, sometimes it's not obvious which category someone falls in, which can be a problem.

 

 Here is some classic "othering" that I'm sure we can all get behind! If only we catch 'em while they are young, we can get them to rightthink.

 

/s